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Author Topic:   Detecting God
ICANT
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Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 16 of 271 (567586)
07-01-2010 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by killinghurts
06-30-2010 11:29 PM


Re: Detection of God
Hi killinghurts,
killinghurts writes:
Unless there is a reasonable answer to this question, one can only assume that God is not part of the measurable world, and therefore not part of reality and therefore not real.
The question is:
killinghurts writes:
how someone (or something) would detect God.
By 'detect' I mean "to discover or determine the existence, presence, or fact of".
That makes you a modern day Pharisee which is a hypocritically self-righteous person.
You hide behind the story you believe in that there is no God. When the facts are you believe there is no God higher than yourself.
You have educated yourself until you have no need of a God other than your own mind and what you believe.
Yet you want me to produce evidence that my God exists because if I can't that would get you to 100% rather than your 99.99% belief that God does not exist.
Don't feel like the Lone Ranger you are not the first that demanded evidence of God.
Mark 8:11 And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him.
8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.
Luke 11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
11:30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.
You are not going to get a sign either.
Now as far as those who have been born again they need no sign but get many.
I liked the gig Huntard made in Message 4 and his explanation in Message 7 about asking for something and getting less than he asked for and saying that was an answer to his prayer.
In reality if he prayed to God and got less than he asked for it was not from God. But maybe his god works that way.
I tell my people to be careful what they ask God for because He might answer their prayer in the affirmative. He does answer every prayer made by His children. He answers yes, no, or wait awhile.
I know for a fact He can and will answer prayer.
So let me open myself up for a deluge of rants.
I began smoking when I was 11 years old because I found out that while working in dry tobacco I would sneeze my head of so to speak but if I smoked it did not bother me.
Well it didn't take long before I was addicted.
By the time I was twenty I was smoking too much and began to try to quit. I quit a thousand times for almost 3 years. Stopping for a little while and then returning to smoking more that ever. I could not quit. By the time I quit I was smoking 4 packs a day which meant I was lighting a cigarette ever eight minutes.
In 1962 while building an interchange at Ocala Fl. I was operating a D7 Cat with 21 631's hauling material to build the ramp on the North side of Hwy 200 on the South bound lane of I75 I realized I had a cigarette in each hand.
Both burned down about 1" I realized I was no longer in control.
One cigarette went one way the other went the other way the pack went over my head and the back of the tractor. I then said God I have a problem I can't solve I need help please take the taste out of my mouth.
From that moment on I have never wanted a cigarette nor can I be around someone smoking.
Now either God answered my request.
OR
I have total control over my brain and body through my mind. I think there are many here that would say that is an impossibility.
Now is there anyone that has a better conclusion as to what took the taste out of my mouth?
OK guys have fun with this one.
I have many such events in my life.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by killinghurts, posted 06-30-2010 11:29 PM killinghurts has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-01-2010 9:55 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 18 by AZPaul3, posted 07-01-2010 10:12 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 20 by sac51495, posted 07-02-2010 1:26 AM ICANT has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 17 of 271 (567608)
07-01-2010 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by ICANT
07-01-2010 7:44 PM


Re: Detection of God
That makes you a modern day Pharisee which is a hypocritically self-righteous person.
Specifically, a Pharisee was a hypocritically self-righteous theist.
You hide behind the story you believe in that there is no God. When the facts are you believe there is no God higher than yourself.
Oh look, hypocritical self-righteous theism. And a failed attempt at mindreading.
You are not going to get a sign either.
Well, I'm certain of that. But why are you? According to Christian mythology, lots of people have got signs. Look at Saul of Tarsus:
Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison. (Acts 8)
That seems rather meaner than just asking you questions you can't answer. But Jesus turned up and put Saul right in person.
Yet you seem utterly confident that that sort of thing doesn't happen.
By the time I was twenty I was smoking too much and began to try to quit. I quit a thousand times for almost 3 years. Stopping for a little while and then returning to smoking more that ever. I could not quit. By the time I quit I was smoking 4 packs a day which meant I was lighting a cigarette ever eight minutes.
Did you ever think of asking for God's help before 1962?
I have total control over my brain and body through my mind. I think there are many here that would say that is an impossibility.
Now is there anyone that has a better conclusion as to what took the taste out of my mouth?
Atheists can quit smoking too. Are these amongst the signs from God that you're sure they don't get?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by ICANT, posted 07-01-2010 7:44 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by sac51495, posted 07-02-2010 1:16 AM Dr Adequate has not replied
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 18 of 271 (567610)
07-01-2010 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by ICANT
07-01-2010 7:44 PM


Re: Detection of God
From that moment on I have never wanted a cigarette nor can I be around someone smoking.
Maybe it was your god answering your prayer. Who am I do deny your view.
More likely, however, while not having complete and utter control of brain over body in the sense that your brain can cause your body to defy the laws of physics, the brain is a wonderfully power instrument. Smoking, while a physical thing is also a mental need. Maybe this mental incident overwhelmed your physical need to smoke.
I have a friend who had a similar incident outside any religious connotation and successfully quit. The brain, when motivated, can be very powerful indeed, without the religious overtones.
Maybe your god answered your prayer or maybe your religious views helped focus the natural powers of your brain.
Based on the various evidences of psychology and the physiology of nicotine addiction I know which one I think it was but only you can make that call for yourself.
[abe] By the way. Such stories of answered prayer are called "confirmation bias." [/abe]
Edited by AZPaul3, : add edit

This message is a reply to:
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sac51495
Member (Idle past 4720 days)
Posts: 176
From: Atlanta, GA, United States
Joined: 04-02-2010


Message 19 of 271 (567629)
07-02-2010 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Dr Adequate
07-01-2010 9:55 PM


Re: The Powerless Atheist
Dr. Adequate,
Specifically, a Pharisee was a hypocritically self-righteous theist.
They were indeed theists. But they were also very homo-centric, as are atheists. This is because they thought that their salvation was brought about by pleasing God via their good actions - actions that they believed to be done by their own power. "For there is no power except of God, and the powers that be are of God" - (Romans 13:1b). So if the power which they believed they were using was not of themselves (the aforementioned vs. says that the power cannot be of them), then of who was it? Was it of God, who sent His Son to earth, who while here on earth called the Pharisees a brood of vipers? And he also presumes them to be evil men ("How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." - [Matthew 12:34])? Certainly it wasn't of God. So of who was that power then? The answer is this: it wasn't power, for their works were not good, though they thought them to be, for "Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil, and cleave unto that which is good - (Romans 12:9)". This is saying that your love must come from the heart, that your works may be truly good; for if your works are not of the heart, then they are not good, for if they are not of the heart, then they are not for the express purpose of giving glory to God; your works then become for the purpose of giving glory to man...this is what the Pharisees did, and it is what atheists do as well - because if you do not have God to give the glory to, than to whom can the glory go but man?
ICANT writes:
When the facts are you believe there is no God higher than yourself.
And a failed attempt at mindreading.
Then just who is higher than you? Are you admitting to us that you believe in God?...
Well, I'm certain of that. But why are you? According to Christian mythology, lots of people have got signs.
ICANT said that you will not receive a sign, nor the evil generation who was seeking after one. He didn't say Saul wouldn't receive a sign. The vs. was very pointed; at you more specifically, and all those people who seek a sign. So just what is the problem with seeking a sign? The problem with it - as is the problem with so many other things - is that it is homo-centric; the seeking of a sign attempts to satisfy man's fleshly desire to have his curiosity satisfied ("But He said to them, 'Where is your faith?' - Luke 8:25")[Also check out instances where Jesus commends their faith; Matt. 9:22; Matt. 9:29; Matt. 16:8; Mark 2:5; Mark 5:34; etc.]. For a man to be curious means that he is more concerned about himself then about his destiny, which is decided by God, who will judge all in righteousness ("God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel." - Romans 2:16b)
Atheists can quit smoking too. Are these amongst the signs from God that you're sure they don't get?
Remember, "there is no power but of God". If an atheist quits smoking (through - he thinks - his own power), then he has done nothing good, for he did not give God the glory for his actions, and, therefore, his actions were ultimately homo-centric, and thus, they were not good works. ICANT's quitting of smoking was (by his own testimony) by the power of God, so in the end, the glory was given to God, not to ICANT. Thus, his actions were good, for they gave God the glory, not man.
"For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor? Or who has first given to Him and it shall be repaid to him? For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. [emphasis added] - (Romans 11:32-36)
Edited by sac51495, : No reason given.
Edited by sac51495, : No reason given.
Edited by sac51495, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-01-2010 9:55 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
sac51495
Member (Idle past 4720 days)
Posts: 176
From: Atlanta, GA, United States
Joined: 04-02-2010


Message 20 of 271 (567630)
07-02-2010 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by ICANT
07-01-2010 7:44 PM


Re: Detection of God
ICANT,
...[your message]...
Love it. I also love your highlights of Scripture.
Thank you very much! I enjoyed it!
Edited by sac51495, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by ICANT, posted 07-01-2010 7:44 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 271 (567682)
07-02-2010 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by sac51495
07-01-2010 4:03 PM


sac51495 writes:
If you really thought of God as God, you wouldn't even try to change His glory into something detectable, and corruptible!!
If your god isn't detectable, then how do you know about it? How would anyone have got on this tangent in the first place?
This is one of many theistic stumbling blocks; it is hard to argue that undetectability is a required aspect of their deity when their holy books contain so much magic in the past. Yet as we can see they often try.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by sac51495, posted 07-01-2010 4:03 PM sac51495 has replied

Replies to this message:
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sac51495
Member (Idle past 4720 days)
Posts: 176
From: Atlanta, GA, United States
Joined: 04-02-2010


Message 22 of 271 (567694)
07-02-2010 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phage0070
07-02-2010 8:06 AM


Phage,
If your god isn't detectable, then how do you know about it? How would anyone have got on this tangent in the first place?
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible manand birds and four-footed animals and creeping things." (Romans 1:18-23)
Did you read the whole thing? If not, then read it, because it sums up my beliefs about that particular subject quite nicely.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Peepul, posted 07-02-2010 10:29 AM sac51495 has replied

  
Peepul
Member (Idle past 5018 days)
Posts: 206
Joined: 03-13-2009


Message 23 of 271 (567716)
07-02-2010 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by sac51495
07-02-2010 9:14 AM


quote:
...For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead,....
Sac,
this sentence seems to be at the core of the quote you gave.
Paul is saying, if I interpret it correctly, that the nature of the world around us is the key reason for believing in God, and that what God is like is revealed by what he has created. Is that how you interpret it?
A lot has changed since 1st century AD. There is good reason now to believe that there are natural explanations for what exists, and there seems to be no need for the supernatural in any of it. So how can use we use this today as a way of evidencing God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by sac51495, posted 07-02-2010 9:14 AM sac51495 has replied

Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 24 of 271 (567730)
07-02-2010 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Dr Adequate
07-01-2010 9:55 PM


Re: Detection of God
Hi Dr,
Dr Adequate writes:
Specifically, a Pharisee was a hypocritically self-righteous theist.
I don't know if they believed in God or not I do know they did not follow him and were not His children.
About the Parisees Jesus said:
Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Dr Adequate writes:
Well, I'm certain of that. But why are you?
Jesus said so.
Dr Adequate writes:
Did you ever think of asking for God's help before 1962?
No. I was captian of my own ship and knew I could quit any time I wanted too. I had many times.
Dr Adequate writes:
Atheists can quit smoking too.
Yes they can.
But do you know anyone who ever quit cold turkey, no patches, no gum or helps of any kind without any withdrawl problems?
A lot of people spend millions of dollars each year to quit smoking.
I have never met anyone that was able to throw their cigarettes away and never want or smoke another one instantly.
I had no withdrawl, no problems of any kind physical or mental except without all that poision in my body I gained weight.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-01-2010 9:55 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by dwise1, posted 07-02-2010 12:39 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 29 by Theodoric, posted 07-02-2010 1:13 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 53 by Phage0070, posted 07-02-2010 4:33 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 25 of 271 (567744)
07-02-2010 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by sac51495
07-02-2010 1:26 AM


Re: Detection of God
Hi sac,
Welcome to EvC.
sac51495 writes:
Thank you very much! I enjoyed it!
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it.
People today do not understand that Jesus spending 72 hours in the grave and then coming forth from the grave is the only sign that would be given.
Dr Adequate does not understand that Saul/Paul did not get a sign but a special calling to be an Apostle to the gentiles.
They think we are crazy because we believe in a being they can not detect therefore they can't see how we can believe in such a diety.
I chuckle everytime I think about all the times I pushed for an answer as to where the universe that existed at T=10-43 came from.
The correct answer is "We don't know".
But I have also been told it just is. But when I say God just exists they want to laugh me out of the thread.
They don't realize that to believe what they believe that they have to believe the universe exists by faith.
Without God to produce the universe there would be no universe.
There is one scientist that has said on this site:
" The universe exists - past, present and future as one four dimensional entity."
I don't know how many dimensions there are but I do agree with the rest of the statement.
The unexplainability of the singularity should be a point of detection of God.
The unexplainability of where the universe came from should be a point of detection of God.
The unexplainability of what is holding the universe together should be a point of detection of God.
That is right you pointed out in another post that the universe declares the existence of God.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by sac51495, posted 07-02-2010 1:26 AM sac51495 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 58 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-02-2010 6:25 PM ICANT has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 26 of 271 (567747)
07-02-2010 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by ICANT
07-02-2010 11:16 AM


Re: Detection of God
Dr Adequate writes:
Atheists can quit smoking too.
Yes they can.
But do you know anyone who ever quit cold turkey, no patches, no gum or helps of any kind without any withdrawl problems?
My father. After more than 20 years of smoking regularly, he then spent a year watching his own father die slowly and painfully of lung cancer. In all the remaining 35 years until he died, I only saw him with a cigarette once and that was 20 years after he had quit and was because of a period of very heavy stress in his business.
And my son right after his divorce, once that bad influence had been removed from his life. And neither he nor my father suffered any weight gain for it.
True, in my son's case it was mainly lack of a reason to continue, but in my father's case he had the strong motivation of having closely watched smoking kill a family member. Others may find motivation elsewhere, such as in the belief that their god wants them to quit and will help them to do it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by ICANT, posted 07-02-2010 11:16 AM ICANT has replied

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Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3374 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 27 of 271 (567750)
07-02-2010 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by ICANT
07-02-2010 12:06 PM


Re: Detection of God
So, you are going with the god of the gaps? Anything that cannot yet be explained is evidence of your god? Even when the gaps keep being closed?
This is pretty poor stuff since the fact that something is not understood just now is not evidence that it will never be understood. Even if something can never be understood, that is still not evidence for anything supernatural.
Do you have any positive evidence for your god. or are gods just stuff that has been made up to cope with lack of knowledge?

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Replies to this message:
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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2132 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 28 of 271 (567752)
07-02-2010 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by killinghurts
06-30-2010 11:29 PM


quote:
Unless there is a reasonable answer to this question, one can only assume that God is not part of the measurable world, and therefore not part of reality and therefore not real.
As others have pointed out, in the above statement you equate "reality" with (scientific) "testability" or "measurability." In so doing, you implicitly deny the existence of any non-physical reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by killinghurts, posted 06-30-2010 11:29 PM killinghurts has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Taq, posted 07-02-2010 1:28 PM kbertsche has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 29 of 271 (567757)
07-02-2010 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by ICANT
07-02-2010 11:16 AM


Re: Detection of God
But do you know anyone who ever quit cold turkey, no patches, no gum or helps of any kind without any withdrawl problems?
Your god did not make you special in this regard. My father quit smoking cold turkey in the late 1970's. He was so upset that he was late to an important meeting because he was hunting for a cigarette. This was well before patches and nicotine gum. He was not and is not a religious man. God and religion played no part in his quitting.
A few years later he quit drinking in a similar manner. I think he quit drinking out of spite, to prove to us he could. He went to a few AA meetings but was put of by the overtly religious aspect of them. He knew there was no higher power that could help him, instead he had to find it within himself. In case you do not think he had a severe problem, he drank about a qt of scotch a night and was on his 4 Dwi when he quit 27 years ago.
Your praying to your god does not show that the faithful can quit substance abuse any easier than any one else. Confirmation bias much?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9975
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 30 of 271 (567759)
07-02-2010 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by kbertsche
07-02-2010 1:02 PM


As others have pointed out, in the above statement you equate "reality" with (scientific) "testability" or "measurability." In so doing, you implicitly deny the existence of any non-physical reality.
As logic demands, it is up to those who claim that there is a non-physical reality to provide evidence of its existence. That which is asserted without evidence can be rejected without evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by kbertsche, posted 07-02-2010 1:02 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by kbertsche, posted 07-02-2010 2:02 PM Taq has replied

  
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