Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,819 Year: 3,076/9,624 Month: 921/1,588 Week: 104/223 Day: 2/13 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Creation as presented in Genesis chapters 1 and 2
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 391 of 607 (566556)
06-25-2010 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 390 by ICANT
06-25-2010 9:53 AM


Re: Satan
You can't get much further out than that. About 95% of so called christianity disagrees with me. So What?
I dont think you understand, it not a matter of simple disagreement, you are involving yourself in self-contradiction
Jesus could not accuse Satan of being the father of lies and liars without him having and possessing freewill. My dogs do many things that make me angry and upset, that does not make them evil, bad or immoral or liars.
You only have two choices, he is either a willful liar or he is an animal. Do you ever remember God refering to any animal as evil or immoral.
There are no inbetween creatures as you are suggesting.
DB

This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by ICANT, posted 06-25-2010 9:53 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by ICANT, posted 06-25-2010 10:26 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 392 of 607 (566557)
06-25-2010 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 388 by purpledawn
06-25-2010 8:59 AM


Re: Who, Whom, What, When, and Why
Hi PD,
purpledawn writes:
What is your purpose?
I have no purpose.
purpledawn writes:
What are you trying to tell your audience?
I like Moses don't have an audience.
purpledawn writes:
I see no useful purpose for your hypothesis.
I tend to agree with you.
Now if you will explain to me how I can get all these thoughts out of my mind that I have all my waking hours which is about 18 hours a day I would be grateful.
I have a burning desire in my mind to share these thoughts that keep entering my mind.
I would much rather spend the last few years of my life playing golf and fishing than sitting at a keyboard staring into a monitor and typing words that will probably have no meaning to anyone but me.
So hopefully when I get the book finished I can finally be rid of the thoughts and get on with the rest of my life.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 388 by purpledawn, posted 06-25-2010 8:59 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 396 by purpledawn, posted 06-25-2010 2:11 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 393 of 607 (566560)
06-25-2010 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 391 by Dawn Bertot
06-25-2010 10:10 AM


Re: Satan
Hi DB,
DB writes:
There are no inbetween creatures as you are suggesting.
Lets see;
There is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit which is God.
There are good angels, Gabriel and his angels are messengers.
Michael and his angels who are protectors and fight the battles of God.
There are evil angels which follow Satan.
There is mankind who has the freewill to choose what he does.
There are animals that do as god programed them to do by giving them instinct.
Now Which of those was God talking about when He said:
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].
Now did God create an evil Satan?
OR
Did God create a Satan with the potential to become evil?
Isaiah quoted God as saying He created evil.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Dawn Bertot, posted 06-25-2010 10:10 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 405 by Dawn Bertot, posted 06-27-2010 6:02 PM ICANT has replied

greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3427 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 394 of 607 (566563)
06-25-2010 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 387 by ICANT
06-25-2010 3:17 AM


Re: Yom
(quote) Why couldn't the 8 generations of people in the generations of the heavens and the earth take place in one day?
God defined day as a light period. (/quote)
ICANT, The one day of Gen 2:4 covers 6 days of Gen 1, which includes 6 evenings and 6 mornings. When you add in the 7 generations after Adam, you get about 200 years of life. To say there was never any darkness in the 200 years is an interpretation, but it does deny the claim that one day was 24 hours.
I prefer the interpretation that the term "day" was used for variable periods of time, sort of like the Day of the Lord in Isaiah (2,13) There, the Babylonian and Medes took more than 24 hours to accomplish what God said would happen in that day.
Since Gen 1 and 2 doesn't limit day to 24 hours, I am comfortable with the Days of Gen 1 being time periods of any length. The focus is on the event. When it ends, the day ends.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by ICANT, posted 06-25-2010 3:17 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by ICANT, posted 06-25-2010 11:41 AM greentwiga has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 395 of 607 (566568)
06-25-2010 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 394 by greentwiga
06-25-2010 11:05 AM


Re: Yom
Hi greentwiga,
greentwiga writes:
Since Gen 1 and 2 doesn't limit day to 24 hours, I am comfortable with the Days of Gen 1 being time periods of any length. The focus is on the event. When it ends, the day ends.
But it does limit a day to a light period and a dark period.
Would you agree with God's definition of yowm?
Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
God called a light period Day.
God called the combination of a light period and a dark period the first day.
Did God know what He was talking about when He declared a light period Day?
Did God know what He was talking about when He declared a light period and a dark period the first Day?
Did God know what He was talking about when He said:
1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
God said that the light period that began with the morning that ended the first Day ended with the evening that began the dark portion that ended with the morning of the third day was the second day.
That declares that a light portion and a dark portion was declared a day.
Conclusion:
God called a light period Day.
God called combination of a light period and a dark period Day.
Is God's definition of Day correct?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by greentwiga, posted 06-25-2010 11:05 AM greentwiga has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 399 by greentwiga, posted 06-25-2010 4:03 PM ICANT has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 396 of 607 (566597)
06-25-2010 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by ICANT
06-25-2010 10:12 AM


Re: Who, Whom, What, When, and Why
quote:
I have no purpose.
You do have a purpose for your writing. The purpose is to empty the thoughts out of your head. If it works for you great! I have several stories I've written, but didn't do anything with.
Too bad dumping here on EvC didn't help.
Are you close to the finish or just starting?

Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by ICANT, posted 06-25-2010 10:12 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 398 by ICANT, posted 06-25-2010 2:40 PM purpledawn has seen this message but not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 397 of 607 (566600)
06-25-2010 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by jaywill
06-23-2010 4:53 AM


Re: God's Instruction's
Hi Jay,
I missed this post.
jaywill writes:
No. I mean the word adam appears in Genesis 1:26.
The word Adam does not appear in Genesis 1:26.
The transliteration of the Hebrew word adam does appear in verse 26 but it is translated man.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
jaywill writes:
I do understand that because the footnote in my Bible says for Gen. 1:26 - " Or, mankind; Heb. adam, So also in the next verse ..."
If you understand it is a transliteration why do you keep insisting that it is a proper name, as you do by saying that because the man in Genesis 2:7 is called Adam and the man created in the image of God is called Adam in Genesis 5:1 that they must be the same man.
Then you insist the man in Genesis 2:7 is the man in 5:1 because he is identified as the individual (proper name) Adam.
jaywill writes:
The geneologies identify the individual Adam.
So no you do not understand that it is a transliteration of the Hebrew word which means mankind/man.
You use it as a proper name which it is not.
Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
These verses declare the generations of the mankind created in the image/likeness of God.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
These verses declare that this mankind was created in the image/likeness of God.
Conclusion the generations given beginning in Genesis 5:1 is the generations of the mankind created in Genesis 1:26. 27.
jaywill writes:
This is a dogmatic view. It says "I have no interpretation".
If believing what the text says make my view dogmatic then I have a dogmatic view.
jaywill writes:

jaywill writes:
1.) The usage of "yom" cannot mean anything but something like "before the next darkness falls".
All you have to do is accept the Word of God.
You mean all I have to do is accept your dogmatic opinion here.
But I don't think you are interpreting the passage rightly.
What interpretation is required in the following verse.
Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Light = Day
Light + darkness = Day
yowm = Day
Where is that interpreted wrong?
jaywill writes:
It told us that God breathed into his nostrils this spirit.
And Job 32:8 says "There is a spirit in man, and the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding"
So this created man possessed God's breath as his own human spirit.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
This says God breathed the breath of life into the man.
It does not say God inserted a spiritual man in this form.
Well the problem is that God did not breathe the second breath into that form. The system God set in motion did that.
But lets say this man had a body, a mind, and God put his spirit in the man. That would mean the man was in the image/likeness of God.
Does God know good and evil?
The man in his image/likeness would also know good and evil.
That would eliminate the tree of the knowledge of good and evil being necessary.
Why did God say:
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
How did this man become as God knowing good and evil if he was all ready like God?
jaywill writes:
We were told that man was created in the image of God in chapter one. But you regard that as a different man.
Correct.
The mankind in Genesis 1:27 was created in the image/likeness of God.
The man formed from the dust of the ground and God breathed the breath of life into his nostrils and he became a living being.
Since God knows good and evil this man would have known good and evil as he was created in the image/likeness of God.
This man had to become like God by his disobedience of eating the forbidden fruit. Until that time he was not like God knowing good and evil.
jaywill writes:
What do you think the serpent meant ? It is not SAID right there. Latter in the divine revelation it is SAID.
Where did this question come from?
Give me the words you want discussed and I will see if I have an answer as to what I think he said.
jaywill writes:
He was the first to be recorded as dying. He is followed by scores of others of whom it also says "and he died". Do not try for any reason to make the Adam of Genesis 5:5 some other Adam beside the first man and the Adam of Genesis 2:7.
But this entire thread has been a discussion of a creation story in Genesis 2:4 -4:24 being a different story than the one given in Genesis 1:2-2:3.
You have failed to answer any one of my objections to them being the same.
But you assert that they are.
You assert that the man formed from the dust of the earth in Genesis 2:7 is the same man created in the image/likeness of God in Genesis 1:27.
You do not explain how they can be since:
The man formed from the dust of the ground was formed before any other life form.
The man created in the image/likeness of God was created after all other life forms.
The man formed from the dust of the ground was commanded not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The man created in the image/likeness of God was told he could eat from all trees. None were forbidden.
Help me out here and convince me they are the same man by solving these two problems.
jaywill writes:
You said that. I didn't.
You have a way of leaving out things when you are quoting which is called cherry picking.
ICANT writes:
jaywill writes:
God could have meant the beginning of the process of Adam's death started and would consummate with his physical death years latter.
If He meant that why didn't He say that?
God could have meant anything but He said:
Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Did God lie when He said --> in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. -->
jaywill writes:
There is no way that I am going to understand Genesis 5:5 as refering to anyone else but the Adam of Genesis 2:7.
"And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred thirty years, and he died." (Gen. 5:5)
So God lied to Moses when He gave him:
Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
These verses declared these are the generations of the mankind created in the likeness of God.
The only people said to have been created in the image/likeness of God was created in Genesis 1:27
This is the comments you were responding to.
I ask again:
Are you saying God lied to Moses when He told him:
Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
jaywill writes:
And Gen. 1:27 is given to us again in Gen. 2:7 with different emphasis and some rather paradoxical details.
But that is adam in both passages.
Genesis 1:27 is not given in Genesis 2:7 Genesis 2:7 transpired prior to Genesis 1:2 as it is the history of the Day the LORD God created the Heaven and the Earth.
I will agree that mankind is mentioned in Genesis 1:27 and in Genesis 2:7.
I am not you and you are not me but we are both mankind. At least I hope you are.
jaywill writes:
Something like this could be the case with you. We can be deceived. We can be encouraged to cling to something by evil spirits. We can develop also a "system of error".
Sure we can all be deceived. I could be a brain in a jar the experiment of some alien being fed all the information in my mind.
So if I am deceived why don't you take the scriptures I have discussed and the things I have presented and refute them with what is written in the first 5 chapters of Genesis.
jaywill writes:
We could be led into doctrines of demons in these last days:
I belong to God. He bought me and paid for me at Calvary.
I accepted His offer of eternal life and He sealed my spirit with the Holy Spirit.
Jesus made me a promise in:
10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
10:30 I and my Father are one.
He also sent the Holy Spirit to:
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
The Holy Spirit lives within me and leads me in truth. He can not tell me a lie.
And nobody, or being can pluck me out of Gods hand.
jaywill writes:
If I was too harsh I am sorry.
You can't say anything to me or about me that has not been said many times. So knock yourself out.
I was just letting you know if I ever participate in that kind of thrashing I will be doing it to cause an offense.
jaywill writes:
Dear brother. What do I do when you continue to insinuate that if I do not buy your dogmatic opinion I accuse God of lying ?
Huh ? Is that flattering ?
You take the scripture and show me where it does not say what it says or that it does not say what I say it says.
We are at almost 400 posts and no one had even tried that yet.
You said you had rather talk about other things.
jaywill writes:
Now what do you expect a person to do, when you say that if they do not agree with you, they are saying God lied ?
That's pretty strong too.
You don't have to agree with me.
You do have to agree with what God said through His inspired writers or you have to discard God's Word.
Anyone who disagrees with God is calling God a liar.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by jaywill, posted 06-23-2010 4:53 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 403 by jaywill, posted 06-26-2010 9:01 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 404 by jaywill, posted 06-26-2010 1:45 PM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 398 of 607 (566607)
06-25-2010 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 396 by purpledawn
06-25-2010 2:11 PM


Re: Who, Whom, What, When, and Why
Hi PD,
purpledawn writes:
Are you close to the finish or just starting?
I have over 2500 pages of information.
I must now begin the process of compacting the information to about 300 pages if I want the book to be effective.
With this last piece of the puzzle I realized last night concerning the difference in the man in Genesis 2:7 and 1:27 I think I have all the information I need.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by purpledawn, posted 06-25-2010 2:11 PM purpledawn has seen this message but not replied

greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3427 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 399 of 607 (566661)
06-25-2010 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by ICANT
06-25-2010 11:41 AM


Re: Yom
Yes, you referred to the first two mentions of day that I stated, the 12 hour day and the 24 hour day. There is also the single day that covers 6 days of creation and also covers at least 7 generations. (Gen 2:4) If Yom refers to a dark period and a light period, then the 12 hour day is wrong. There is only the light period in that reference.
Also, the day of the Lord, as mentioned in Isaiah and elsewhere seems to refer to a period of "darkness" or oppression, and a period of "light" or God's victory. This seems to be closer to the meaning in Gen 1 and 2.
For example, before the snowball earth, there was no land life. After the event, Life began to invade the dry land. The snowball earth could be a period of "darkness" and then the development of land life could be a period of "Light."
Again, the dinosaurs would never have allowed the development of mammals. After the KT extinction event, mammals developed. Again periods of "darkness" or suffering, and "light" or growth of life.
I do not insist on specific events as being the change to the next day, but just use these examples to show that this definition fits the Gen 1 and 2 usage of the word "day" better.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by ICANT, posted 06-25-2010 11:41 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 400 by ICANT, posted 06-25-2010 10:03 PM greentwiga has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 400 of 607 (566690)
06-25-2010 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 399 by greentwiga
06-25-2010 4:03 PM


Re: Yom
Hi greentwiga,
greentwiga writes:
Yes, you referred to the first two mentions of day that I stated, the 12 hour day and the 24 hour day.
No I referred to the definition of yowm that God gave.
I will take his definition of what yowm is any DAY over what man has to say. He created DAY so He should know what it is.
greentwiga writes:
There is also the single day that covers 6 days of creation and also covers at least 7 generations. (Gen 2:4)
Genesis2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
This verse does not refer to the seven days of Moses.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth.
This is a declarative statement of completed action.
The Heaven and the Earth existed prior to Genesis 1:2.
Genesis 2:4 is the history of the Heaven and Earth in the day the Heaven and the Earth was created.
That light period DAY the Heaven and the Earth was created had come to evening at Genesis 1:2.
All the things in the history of the Heaven and the Earth recorded in Genesis 2:4 - Genesis 4:24 was accomplished in the light period the Heaven and the Earth was created in.
greentwiga writes:
Also, the day of the Lord, as mentioned in Isaiah and elsewhere seems to refer to a period of "darkness" or oppression, and a period of "light" or God's victory. This seems to be closer to the meaning in Gen 1 and 2.
Isaiah 2:12, 13:6, 13:9 mentions the day of the Lord. In each it is referring to the day God brings judgment.
Isaiah 34:8 mentions the day of the Lord which refers to His vengence.
The day of the Lord appears 380 times in the KJV Bible. In one way or they other they all refer to the day of His judgment in one form or another.
But since God lives in a place where there is no night He is still in the light period the Heaven and the Earth was created in. The day of the Lord lasts for eternity, He knows no night.
You are welcome to your view in the rest of your post.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 399 by greentwiga, posted 06-25-2010 4:03 PM greentwiga has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 401 by greentwiga, posted 06-25-2010 11:27 PM ICANT has replied

greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3427 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 401 of 607 (566695)
06-25-2010 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 400 by ICANT
06-25-2010 10:03 PM


Re: Yom
I am confused. Gen 2:4 "The day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens" does not refer to the first day Gen 1:1, when God made the heavens and the earth? Were there two creations of the heavens and the earth?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by ICANT, posted 06-25-2010 10:03 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 402 by ICANT, posted 06-26-2010 1:20 AM greentwiga has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 402 of 607 (566701)
06-26-2010 1:20 AM
Reply to: Message 401 by greentwiga
06-25-2010 11:27 PM


Re: Yom
Hi greentwiga,
greentwiga writes:
I am confused. Gen 2:4 "The day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens" does not refer to the first day Gen 1:1, when God made the heavens and the earth? Were there two creations of the heavens and the earth?
Sorry for causing the confusion. Usually everybody just tells me I am delusional.
When was the Heaven and the Earth created?
1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
This verse says it was created in the beginning.
When was the beginning? Text does not say, it could have been anywhere in eternity past.
The Heaven and the Earth existed at Genesis 1:2 but it was covered with water.
If the Heaven and the Earth existed at Genesis 1:2 then it was created in Genesis 1:1.
When was Genesis 1:2? About 6,000+ years ago.
Genesis 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
This verse says these are the generations of the Heavens and the Earth when they were created.
It further specifies "in the day the LORD God made the Earth and the Heavens.
So we have a light period that the Heaven and the Earth was created in.
"These are the generations" refers to the things following Genesis 2:4 through 4:24
In Genesis 1:5 God gives us His definition of DAY.
A light period was declared a DAY.
A light period and a dark period was declared the first DAY.
It was dark in Genesis 1:2 that means the light portion had ended with evening. You add the dark period until morning and you have the first DAY.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by greentwiga, posted 06-25-2010 11:27 PM greentwiga has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 403 of 607 (566723)
06-26-2010 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 397 by ICANT
06-25-2010 2:24 PM


Re: God's Instruction's
Hi Jay,
I missed this post.
jaywill writes:
No. I mean the word adam appears in Genesis 1:26.
The word Adam does not appear in Genesis 1:26.
The transliteration of the Hebrew word adam does appear in verse 26 but it is translated man.
I put adam in small case letters and said that the word adam appeared in Genesis 1:26. Now you say that capital A Adam does not appear but it is a transliteration.
I need you to explain this without ambiguity because I do not read ancient Hebrew.
Explain what is the difference between the Hebrew word used in Genesis 1:26 and that used in Genesis 5:2.
Genesis 5:2 - "Male and female He created them, and He blessed them and called their name Adam, on the day when they were created."
In my Emphasized Bible the footnote to the word Adam in Genesis 5:2 refers back to Genesis 1:26 with "n." after it.
In the Recovery Vession "man" in Genesis 1:26 has a it says
Or, mankind; Heb. adam
And in the Emphasized Bible under Genesis 1:26 the footnote reads:
Heb: ahdam. Prob. akin to 'adhamah, "ground" (chap. ii. 7) Davies. Fuerst. "Earth-born" - Kalish. Perh: "red." "ruddy" - T.G.
Rotherham, the translater of The Emphasized Bible, is refering to other Hebrew language scholars there.

jaywill writes:
I do understand that because the footnote in my Bible says for Gen. 1:26 - " Or, mankind; Heb. adam, So also in the next verse ..."
If you understand it is a transliteration why do you keep insisting that it is a proper name, as you do by saying that because the man in Genesis 2:7 is called Adam and the man created in the image of God is called Adam in Genesis 5:1 that they must be the same man.
I do not follow you well here. I am quoting some English translations of the Hebrew Bible in both cases. I am simply quoting English translations and refering to the footnotes the translators have provided.
Your knowledge of reading Hebrew could be useful. But I am not intemidated by it. I have never been intimidated by Bible College students or Seminary students when it comes to receiving truth from the word of God.
I respect the students but I am not intemidated by them because of their education.
God created a corporate man. We as mankind were all included in that first man Adam.
The concept of a corporate man, I showed previously, is also seen in Christ. For Christ and His redeemed and elect people are collectively refered to as "the Christ" (1 Cor. 12:12)

Then you insist the man in Genesis 2:7 is the man in 5:1 because he is identified as the individual (proper name) Adam.
The first man created was called Adam. And in the eyes of God we were all as human beings included in Adam.
The second man is Christ. And all who believe into Christ are included in the Body of Christ, or also called "the Christ" (1 Cor. 12:12) which has many names. But the perhaps the prominent is ekklessia - the church.
Do you not agree with this ? Do you disagree that all the believers compose "the Christ" (1 Cor. 12:12) or the corperate Christ ?

jaywill writes:
The geneologies identify the individual Adam.
So no you do not understand that it is a transliteration of the Hebrew word which means mankind/man.
Perhaps I am rusty on transliteration. Maybe I am ignorant of that matter.
However I stand by the biblical fact that the first adam was called Adam, if you will. The first MAN was called Adam (1 Cor. 15:45).
The Bible says that the first instance of mankind was someone called Adam.

You use it as a proper name which it is not.
I think in the appropriate places I use it as a proper name. I gather this from good English translations.

Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
These verses declare the generations of the mankind created in the image/likeness of God.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
These verses declare that this mankind was created in the image/likeness of God.
Conclusion the generations given beginning in Genesis 5:1 is the generations of the mankind created in Genesis 1:26. 27.
I believe that. Now when we continue on in chapter 5 we read these words:
"AND ADAM LIVED ONE HUNDRED THIRTY YEARS and begot a [son] in his likeness according to his image, and he called his name Seth" (My emphasis)
This refers to the creation that came into existence in Genesis 1:26) .

jaywill writes:
It told us that God breathed into his nostrils this spirit.
And Job 32:8 says "There is a spirit in man, and the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding"
So this created man possessed God's breath as his own human spirit.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
This says God breathed the breath of life into the man.
It does not say God inserted a spiritual man in this form.
I did not say that God inserted a spiritual man in this form.
It does say that the spirit in man is the breath of the Almighty.
And Zechariah 12:1 says that Jehovah God "formed the spirit of man within him."

Well the problem is that God did not breathe the second breath into that form. The system God set in motion did that.
I did not say that God breathed "the second man" into that form. And I am not sure what your objection really is.
Man, every man, all men, all women created consist of a human spirit, a human soul, and a human body (1 Thess. 5:23)
The human spirit gives us a consciousness toward the spiritual realm included God.
The human soul gives man a conscioussness toward other human lives.
The human body gives a consciousness toward the physical universe.
We a are a three part, tripartite creation. And I believe that Genesis 2:7 reveals the three parts. God breathed His breath of live into the form of a body. And the result of these two coming together was that man became a living soul. He became a being possessing human spirit, human soul, and human body.
Zechariah says God formed the spirit of man within him. So it is at the same time the breath of the Almighty and the spirit of man. It is out from God and very close to God Himself yet it becomes a component of man, his human spirit.
The human spirit is not only called the breath of the Almighty but the lamp of Jehovah.
"The spirit of man is the lamp of Jehovah, Searching all the innemost parts of the inner being." (Prov. 20:27)
I think that a lot of this "searching" has to do with the human conscience. The conscience of a man searches his motives, justified, condemns, and agrees with God. The human spirit therefore acts as a searching lamp wherewith God and man illuminated the innermost parts of the psychological and spiritual inner world of man.

But lets say this man had a body, a mind, and God put his spirit in the man. That would mean the man was in the image/likeness of God.
What it says in Genesis 2:7 is that God formed the physcial body. It was without any life and without any soul. Then God breathed the breath of life (which Job says is the breath of the Almighty) into the nostrils of this body. The result of the two things coming together was the coming into existing of a third matter - "man became a living soul" .
The body + the spirit from God = MAN became a living soul.
Now below we are getting into some other matters which merit more discussion then I can do this morning.

Does God know good and evil?
The man in his image/likeness would also know good and evil.
That would eliminate the tree of the knowledge of good and evil being necessary.
This might merit much more discussion. But I feel that you are pressing this matter for one purpose really. And that is to develop your view that Genesis 1:26 does not include Genesis 2:7.
Isn't that basically what this discussion now about good and evil have as its purpose ? I mean think the matter should be settled on simplier grounds.
Do you disagree with this ? Do you think we need to launch into the knowledge of good and evil to try to settle the matter of ONE or TWO creations / formations of the human race ?
I don't mind latter talking about the two trees. It is a very interesting and important subject. But I am still trying to grasp why you think your opinion of TWO creations of mankind is so strongly supported in the text.

Why did God say:
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
If I address this as I wish you will probably accuse me of making a long sermon or lecture. Now you asked, OK?
Before I talk about this, why do you think any of it will demonstrate that Genesis 1:26 and Genesis 2:7 should be cleaved apart from each other to refer to TWO initiations of humanity on earth ?

How did this man become as God knowing good and evil if he was all ready like God?
One way or the other HOW does that enfluence your TWO human initiations theology ?

jaywill writes:
We were told that man was created in the image of God in chapter one. But you regard that as a different man.
Correct.
The mankind in Genesis 1:27 was created in the image/likeness of God.
But the man in Genesis 2:7 was not ? Genesis chapter 5 mentions Adam, the man who lived after the story for 130 years before he begat the son Seth in his (Adam's) likeness according to his (Adam's) image (v.3).
And you mean to tell me that this does not establish the link between Genesis 1:26 and 2:7 ???
Your asking too much. By no interpretive gymnastics could you hope to persuade me that Moses mentioning the likeness and image of Adam in conjunction with Adam being in the likeness of God in the place that he does, in the timing that he does, in the position in the text that he does, and it does not connect Genesis 1:26's creation to Genesis 2:7's creation.
I think you're asking too much which is built on a thin tissue of possible alternative interpretations.

The man formed from the dust of the ground and God breathed the breath of life into his nostrils and he became a living being.
Since God knows good and evil this man would have known good and evil as he was created in the image/likeness of God.
This man had to become like God by his disobedience of eating the forbidden fruit. Until that time he was not like God knowing good and evil.
I'll come back to these points. I have made my point in this post.
This matter of the tree of life verses the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is really developed on other threads.
Briefly I would say this:
1.) God wants man to be like God.
2.) God wants man to do it God's way and not Satan's way.
God's way for man to be like God is to take God Himself into him as life. This is seen in the tree of life.
Satan's way for man to be like God is to become independent and autonomous from God in a rebellion exactly like Satan's own pre-Adamic rebellion. This is principle is seen in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
This is become like God by joining to God's life and nature VERSES becoming like God by revolting against God in rebellion, thus joining man to Satan.
There was a triangular situation set up by God in the garden. The three wills were represented.
1.) The Divine will
2.) The Satanic will
3.) The free will of man neutral between the two.
The Divine will is that of the uncreated eternal Creator.
The Satanic will came about when one of the creatures of God established and introduced into the universe a SECOND will.
The free will of man is between the two to choose. His choice determines which will will be established.
IF man does choose the temporary Satanic will he can come back to the eternal self existing will of the uncreated Divine through repentene and salvation.
That is the story of the rest of the Bible. That is how God uses man's repentence and His salvation to bring man back to the eternal will of the Divine and destroy eventually the temporary Satanic will of God's enemy.

jaywill writes:
What do you think the serpent meant ? It is not SAID right there. Latter in the divine revelation it is SAID.
Where did this question come from?
I think any fair minded person would ask this. Not that everyone has to or that there are no other questions.
But if God is so good why did He not FORCE man not to be able to make another choice? Why did God allow a tempter to exist in this paradise like garden anyway?
I think this a question almost all readers of Genesis will sooner or latter ponder. You have no noticed it brought up repeatedly by Internet skeptics? I have.

jaywill writes:
He was the first to be recorded as dying. He is followed by scores of others of whom it also says "and he died". Do not try for any reason to make the Adam of Genesis 5:5 some other Adam beside the first man and the Adam of Genesis 2:7.
But this entire thread has been a discussion of a creation story in Genesis 2:4 -4:24 being a different story than the one given in Genesis 1:2-2:3.
You have failed to answer any one of my objections to them being the same.
Oh really ?
I am no longer interested in any personal contest. And I think I answered a lot of your objections. You didn't believe or like my replies.
There are a few points that I do not remember you speaking to. Unless I missed it I told you from Colossians and Ephesians and other books - God created all things.
IF God created all things then God created man in Genesis 2:7 whether it only talks about forming from dust and building from bone. God created Adam and God created Adam's wife because in Him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.
So your whole argument that man in Genesis 2:7 was not created by God I find not true.
It is strange that you want to insist that God created evil and Satan BEFORE you will admit that God created man and his wife too in Genesis chapter 2.
You'll argue strenuously that eveyone see that God created EVIL. Yet you make a big case that God did not create Adam and his wife because BARA is not used in chapter two.
Don't you see a strange mix up of priorities in this attitude?
You're so eager that every one Amen that Satan is God's creation. But you want everyone to discard that Adam was God's creation ?
But you get offended when I say that this may be unintentionally a teaching of evil spirits. But you do not see why ?
Brother ? Do you see what you do ?
You STRENGHTEN the concept that God is responsible for the creation of SATAN. And at the same time you WEAKEN the concept that Adam, a prefigure of Christ, is God's creation.
And you get hot under the collar because I say "Be careful brother. This could be a teaching of demons there."

But you assert that they are.
You assert that the man formed from the dust of the earth in Genesis 2:7 is the same man created in the image/likeness of God in Genesis 1:27.
You do not explain how they can be since:
The man formed from the dust of the ground was formed before any other life form.
The man created in the image/likeness of God was created after all other life forms.
The sequence of the animals is admitedly a bit of a paradox. Maybe it is a contradiction.
Upon this paradox I would NEVER advance a theory that there are TWO initiations of the human race.
What puzzle you think you solve by doing so, is not worth the confusion introduced by obscuring the origin of mankind, IMO.
In the second section of the creation teaching I don't think the TIMING of the creation of animals is important to the seer. I think relating their nature to Adam's is uppermost in the teaching.
He named them all. He transcended them all. He was among them but also transcendent to them.
He needed something out from himself to be built into his counterpart - Woman, Isha - taken out of the man.
For the sake of figureing out when the gerbil was made I am not willing to propose TWO initiations of the human race.
I have to discontinue for this morning.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by ICANT, posted 06-25-2010 2:24 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 409 by ICANT, posted 06-28-2010 3:02 PM jaywill has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 404 of 607 (566736)
06-26-2010 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 397 by ICANT
06-25-2010 2:24 PM


Re: God's Instruction's
I belong to God. He bought me and paid for me at Calvary.
I accepted His offer of eternal life and He sealed my spirit with the Holy Spirit.
Jesus made me a promise in:
10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
10:30 I and my Father are one.
He also sent the Holy Spirit to:
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
The Holy Spirit lives within me and leads me in truth. He can not tell me a lie.
And nobody, or being can pluck me out of Gods hand
You are totally confusing a Christian teacher with an incorrect teaching with a Christian losing his salvation.
I said we Christians could be deceived. I did not say we Christians could be deceived to the point of losing our eternal redemption.
The churches to whom the Galatian letter was addressed were all Christians with the Holy Spirit. Yet Paul asked them "Who has bewitched you ...?" (Gal. 3:1) They had been bewitched. They had been deceived to follow a demonic teaching pushed by the Judiazers.
We teachers of the Bible could be deceived or else James would not have written "Do not become many teachers, my brothers, knowing that we will receive the greater judgment. For in many things we all stumble." (James 3:1,2a)
We believing teachers of the Bible can stumble others in incorrect teaching. Yet still no one can pluck us out of the hand of the Savior in terms of eternal redemption.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by ICANT, posted 06-25-2010 2:24 PM ICANT has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 405 of 607 (566803)
06-27-2010 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 393 by ICANT
06-25-2010 10:26 AM


Re: Satan
Now did God create an evil Satan?
OR
Did God create a Satan with the potential to become evil?
Isaiah quoted God as saying He created evil.
Your simplicity while cute is misguided and in bad need of instruction. If God created evil, as you are implying the text suggests, then no onem not even humans are responsible for anything and should not be punished for a single moment.
Certainly you understand him to mean God created the potential not the evil itself
Again how can Satan be a liar without a freewill?
DB

This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by ICANT, posted 06-25-2010 10:26 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 406 by jaywill, posted 06-27-2010 6:21 PM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 410 by ICANT, posted 06-28-2010 3:08 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024