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Author Topic:   I need an answer
dwise1
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Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 20 of 58 (566070)
06-22-2010 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RyanVanGo
06-16-2010 11:34 AM


Now from the reading and documentaries I've come across, I have simplified the 2 sides down to this:
Evolution: Here's our proof, here's what we know so far, there's a few holes, but we're working on it.
Creation: There's too many holes in evolution, it must be creation.
so the creationism theory says "Evolution isn't all correct, so it must be this" without giving me as much proof as evolution has. please someone show me the proof. Let me put it this way (while watching a documentary by Kent Hovind).
Long ago I heard "creation science" summarized as a book with two chapters:
quote:
Chapter One: Evolution
Chapter Two: Everything That's Wrong with Chapter One
And indeed, that is exactly what the "Two Model Approach" (TMA)of "creation science" is: just attack the "evolution model" (EM) which will then "prove" the "creation model" (CM) without ever having to present, discuss, or defend the "creation model." I have attended, heard, and read transcripts of several creationist debates and presentations, as well as having read a number of creationist books. Especially in the ones from the Institute for Creation Research (ICR), the very first thing that the creationist would do would be to establish the TMA (id est, that there are two and only two mutually exclusive models for origins) and then proceed to attack the EM while avoiding and even outright refusing to discuss or even present their own CM.
The TMA is an informal logical fallacy called the "False Dichotomy" (AKA "False Dilemma"). Dichotomies can be very useful, but the False Dichotomy is an abuse of that tool. If you truly have a limited number of possibilities, then you can determine the true one simply by eliminating the others; there's a mathematical proof, proof by contradiction, in which you prove something by assuming the opposite and then showing that that leads to a contradiction. But in a False Dichotomy, you leave out many of the choices that exist, forcing the victim of your swindle (which is what it is) to choose between two artificially constructed "choices". It is a con, a swindle, a lie, and a deception.
A very short history. Early in the 20th Century, high school attendence grew rapidly and just as rapidly parents became alarmed at what their children were learning in school. Coupled with political and social changes from WWI, and the spread of both modernism and fundamentalism, an anti-evolution movement took hold. They succeeded in implementing "monkey laws" in four states that made teaching evolution illegal (teachers in violation would be barred from teaching for life) as well as getting school boards and and textbook publishers to toe their line from the 1920's to the 1960's. They became less public in the 1920's, what with the public embarassment of the Scopes Trial and the death of their leader, William Jennings Bryan.
But then our rush to improve science education in reaction to Sputnik led to the reintroduction of evolution in science classrooms which in turn led to a teacher challenging the Arkansas "monkey law" which led to the US Supreme Court striking down all "monkey laws" as unconstitutional. The anti-evolution movement got back in gear and came up with "creation science" as a way to deceive the courts and the public ("No, no! We do not want to bar evolution because of our religious beliefs, but rather we have scientific reasons!"). One of the reasons why they need to use the TMA and to avoid presenting the CM is because that would immediately expose their true motives, which are purely religious.
Instead i need to see proof that the earth WAS formed 10000 years ago, and not only that, but that God is the one who formed it, with his hands, in 6 days. WITHOUT saying that our theories are wrong, but proposing new ones. please. my sanity and spirituality are on the line here.
No, you don't. You are falling for another creationist False Dichotomy. They tell you that you must either believe their CM (which is a literalist interpretation of Genesis, including the Flood and the earth being no older than 10,000 years) or be an atheistic "evolutionist". Either/Or, nothing else allowed! Not even the broad spectrum of different forms of creationist belief wherein most people find themselves.
That either-or choice is fraud, a deception, and a con. Do not fall for their trap! They are lying to you!
For that matter, their attacks against evolution and other sciences are also a pack of lies. Do not be fooled!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RyanVanGo, posted 06-16-2010 11:34 AM RyanVanGo has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 21 of 58 (566073)
06-22-2010 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by RyanVanGo
06-22-2010 1:36 PM


Re: Why The Need for Proof?
A rabbi wrote a book some years ago about how most adults have childish ideas about God, because they had formed those ideas in their childhood and then never went back to develop more mature ideas as they themselves matured. They continue to hold on to those childish beliefs and resist any efforts to get them to question them. But we must questions our ideas and beliefs, constantly. Not in order to question God, but rather to question our ideas about God (and other things as well), so that we can see where we have it wrong and so that we can then try to correct it.
A lot of people hold on to their religious beliefs even though they don't really know what those beliefs are based on. For example, a lot of church teachings (both Catholic and Protestant) are not based on the Bible. Furthermore, there are histories to specific beliefs, many of which are far shorter than you may realize (eg, as I understand it, papal infallibility and the worship of Mary stem from the late 19th century).
I would suggest that you do some such studying in order to gain a more complete understanding so that you can make a more mature and informed decision. For example, one atheist's testimony as to why she left Christianity was that one day she discovered that her church leaders had been lying to her all along: the books of the Bible were not written in the order in which they appear! Dumb reason!
Well quite simply, no one ever specifically told me if i was supposed to take the bible literally.
Nor had they me. But around age 12 or 13 I decided to start taking my Protestant faith seriously. I knew that I was supposed to belief what was in the Bible, so I started reading it from the beginning, applying nave literalism even though thinking back I'm fairly sure that literalism was not part of our doctrine. Well, needless to say, it didn't take long for me to realize that I couldn't believe what I was reading. Since I couldn't believe what I was supposed to believe, I guessed that I should just leave, which I did. Right decision, wrong reasons. That was about 45 years ago.
Even though I've been an atheist since then and I do not believe in the Bible having any divine properties, I also believe that it cannot be completely discounted either. At the very least, it (and the OT in particular) represents the accumulated wisdom of an entire people. I also found wisdom in much of the teachings of Jesus, despite the rest of the NT getting rather questionable due to Paul's creation of the religion of the Christ.
I'm mainly recommending that you think things through.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by RyanVanGo, posted 06-22-2010 1:36 PM RyanVanGo has not replied

  
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