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| Author | Topic: Creation as presented in Genesis chapters 1 and 2 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1967 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Hi Jay, jaywill writes:I also do not believe that before God created man and commanded them to multiply in Genesis 1:28 they had already been made, formed, created, shaped, what have you, and multiplied. ICANT:Then you don't believe the Bible when it says: God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and he became a living being. God made woman from the rib of the man. God drove out the man. Conceived and bare Cain. You are entitled to believe whatever you choose.
No. It means that I do not agree with your interpretation of what the Bible says in this instance. For many centries some brothers in Christ have told each other "Well then, you do not believe the Bible." This is usually rhetorical talk and a bit condescending. But it is ok. I understand we each feel strongly about different interpretations. Incidently, thanks for sharing your testimony below. It was very interesting. You were born again in 1949. I was born the first time in 1949. Of course that isn't likely to make you willing to change your thoughts on my account, and all the more so if you are writing a book. May the Lord bless your labors on that book. I hope it exalts Christ.
jaywill writes: I don't believe that because Eve is not mentioned by name in chapter one that that chapter could not be talking about the first woman created. ICANT:Then explain how the woman in chapter 1 who was created can be the woman that was made from the rib of the man formed from the dust of the ground. I have already explained this. Rather then we repeat another cycle I would rather talk about how the two accounts agree on the matter of man being created in the image of God. (I will however study the matter of the "day". You deserve some more clarification from me there. I am studying that issue. Matthew 19:4,5 says:
"And He answered and said, Have you not read that He who created them [them] from the beginning mad them male and female, And said, 'For this cause shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall be joined to his wife; and they two shall be one flesh. I suspect that you will point out that the word "them" is supplied by the translators. I suspect you will read it as " ... He who created from the beginning made them male and female. But I think Jesus is refering to both Genesis 1:26,27 and Genesis 2:7,18-25 . And Genesis 5:1 says "Male and female He created them." I don't think there is the SLIGHTEST hint with Jesus Christ that there were TWO bringing into existence the human race on ANY level. I see not the slightest clue that Jesus regarded a fundamental difference in man arriving from God's creating hand in Genesis one and a different arriving from God's creative activity in chapter two. Not a clue. Not a hint. I am sorry. I respect that you are writing a book on it. I respect your intense love for the word of God.
jaywill writes: 1.) Before the creation of woman and the multiplication of them another woman was created previously who is called the mother of all living. 2.) After the creation of woman and the multiplication of them a woman was created and assigned to be the mother of all living. Number 1 is close.The only problem is that the woman called Eve was made not created from the rib of the man formed from the dust of the ground. That is not a problem. You have made it a problem. You are saying that before the creation of woman and God's command that humans multiply, there was another woman made not quite in the image of God who was the mother of all living. I dare say that more reference is made in Scripture to this "second class" - proto woman then your alledged REAL created woman of Genesis 1. If there are two greater weight is assigned to the second one in Scripture. The two accounts show one thing and leave a detail ambiguous. What is the ambiguous matter ? It is when the other creatures came into existence. What is the emphasized matter? It is that humanity is made in the image of God. Let me explain it this way. The grass has no face, neither do the herbs nor the trees. Starting from the animal life, we have seen that the fish has a face, but not very close to man's face. Next came the birds, the cattle, and the beasts. Then came man whose face is very much like God. What I mean is that we are told that God made man in His image. The expression of living things is in the face. The faces in Genesis develop more and more until you have man's face who is in the image of God. I do not mean that image is an outward physical matter. But I mean that in the face is mainly the ascension of all the living things until you arrive at man made in the image of God. Now we come to the second account in Genesis two. We have essentially the same matter as far as God and man is concerned. All the animals are brought forth to man. None are suitable to be his counterpart. None match his unique being. That is until the woman is brought forth from him in his sleep. She is bone of his bones and flesh of his flesh. She is woman the reflection of man. But here is the most important point about chapter two. Man was placed before the tree of life. This has to do with God as life entering into man in God's image. This is like a glove and a human hand. A glove is made in the image of a human hand. It is made that way so that the human hand may fit comfortably into the glove. Then the glove becomes the vessel of the living hand. And the hand becomes the life of the glove. Together the glove and the hand mutually coordinate together. You do great damage to the Bible's revelation by teaching that the man in chapter two is not in the image of God. You do more damage by saying the woman in chapter two is not in the image of God. They were like the glove. And the divine life of God Himself signified in the tree of life was like the living hand meant to fit inside the glove. Man is created in a "God shaped" way spiritually and emotionally. Man was created as a living vessel to contain the uncreated divine Person of God as eternal life. Chapter two also shows man in the image of God in a deeper way. Man in chapter two is a living vessel created to come to the divine uncreated Person to receive Him as eternal life. The divine hand fits into the created glove made in the hand's image. In one chapter you have the ascension of living things to arrive at man the expression of the image of God. In chapter two you have the exhuastion of living things until you arrive at that taken out of man and brought back to him, as the expression and image of God. And in chapter two you have man as a created vessel (male and female) brought before the divine life of God signified in the tree of life. The uncreated Person is to fit inside the created person made in His image for a mutual incorporation of God and man.
Can you understand the difference in God taking the dust of the ground and making a form then breathing into that form the breath of life into that form and it becoming a living being, And Speaking and mankind appearing in the image/likeness of God male and female? These are two angles only. The same creation of humanity is represented in the two angles.
jaywill writes: I know that you would not insist that yom has only one possible meaning. Why wouldn't I insist on yom meaning what God said it meant.God call a light period day. God called darkness night. God called the combination of a period of light and a period of darkness the first day. I'll return to that after more study. I will devote the next post to elaborate on man in the image of God to contain the life of God. In a sense chapter one shows what God intends man to do and be. But chapter two shows HOW man will do and be this matter. Man must receive the divine life of God to be united with God in an "organic" union. Man the vessel must receive the divine Person as the content to be mingled with God.
You can call it anything you want I will accept God's definition. jaywill writes:Still you cannot know that a male and a female whale were created at the same moment. You can only speculate. You can only express your preference of belief. Are you saying God who spoke and the universe and Earth existed can not speak and mankind exist male and female even in the millions if He desired, or that He could not speak and thousands of whales male and female exist? I did not say He was unable. I said we cannot prove from the record that He did or did not create in that way. It is important to His eternal purpose that we see that Adam as the type of Christ was the SOURCE from which his wife came into existence !! The Son of God is the SOURCE out from which the eternal city, the kingdom of God and the Body of Christ as His Wife, the New Jerusalem comes into existence. I wish you would read "The Glorious Church" by Watchman Nee. In fact I need to re-read it myself.
jaywill writes: How do you know that ? The Bible tells me so. One was formed from the dust of the groundOne was made from a rib. One was spoke into existence. Yep 3 different ways. ICANT, should we go through the Bible and find every reference to God creating human beings and decide they ALL refer to different events. Which chapter does this refer to ?
"The burden of the word of Jehovah concerning Israel. Thus declares Jehovah, who stretches forth the heavens and lays the foundation of the earth and forms the spirit of man within him." (Zech. 12:1) Which creation of man does this refer to? Is that your first class created man or your second class previously made from dust man ? I believe it refers to either chapter, Genesis 1 or 2. But you teach that before man was created a man was made from the dust had descendents and multiplied in the earth.
jaywill writes: These are not just nice words of Paul to be read at wedding ceremonies. He says that he speaks concerning Christ and the church. His burden is deeper than just giving good marriage advice. But what do they have to do with the creation story? They have to do with what I said. Chapter two is a window into the eternal purpose of God to bring forth from Christ His counterpart. We were saved for the counterpart. Even more we were CREATED for that counterpart. It has to do with the new creation which comes out of the resurrection of Christ the one who "slept" in death and rose to produce from Himself His Wife. It has to do with the new creation in Christ.
jaywill writes: Zero support ?? Zero support that the typology of Genesis chapter two touches on God's eternal purpose ? I see no typology in the history of the day the Lord God created the Heaven and the Earth. What about in the sleeping of Adam and the extraction of part of him to BUILD up a wife for him ? What about "they mystery is great. But I speak concerning Christ and the church."? New Jerusalem comes down out of Heaven from God. She has come out of God. She is built up as a city expressing God's glory. This city bears the glory of God and is the temple of God. This city in the end of the Bible is the Wife of the incarnate Redeeming God. She is produced out of the death and resurrection of the second man Christ. This city is out destiny. This city is the destination of all the believers as sons of God. We were created for this city. We are redeemed, regenerated, born anew to be transformed into this city. This city is why God created a universe. This city as Christ's Wife is the reason why God created a universe.
In some of my wildest moments I still see nothing but Moses telling us what happened in the DAY the LORD God created the Heaven and the Earth. BTW that is what the Bible says. jaywill writes:I do not. I depend upon scholars who do. And they do not always agree among themselves. Yes there are a lot of disagreements.And yes I read and write Old Hebrew and Chaldee and have been studying it since I started college in 1965 spending 6 years in Hebrew classes.
The man and woman created in the image/likeness of God is nowhere said to have a soul. So now we have MAN made from dust not in the image of God and multiplying with descendents BEFORE MAN is created by God, incidently with no soul. This labyrinth is a "system of error" (Eph. 4:14). But you have my respect that you possess a training and a skill that I don't have. But in the regard to the creation of man, I am sure that you have arrived at a "system of error." Ie. Before MAN was CREATED a MAN was FORMED from Dust who was not in the image of God. He and his wife had descendents and they multiplied in the earth. Sometime latter MAN was Created and Female was created, BUT ... they had no SOULS !! Brother, FELLOWSHIP is good. Have you presented this for fellowship with others experienced in the Christian life as yourself ? I don't think I am beyond being deceived. Sometimes I have to take something I think I see in the Bible for fellowship with other brothers for their sense of what I have arrived at. I have to stop here this morning.
I have in no place said they were pre-human. I said they were your pre-adamic race. Okay. But you said Adam means MANKIND. So you have a pre-MANKIND humans ? Well, some people believe in that.
They were human just not modern humans. Well, the greater number of bibilcal references at key points in the Bible is with them in view. Now if they are not as important as modern man why is so much more said in Scripture about them ??
They were not created in the image/likeness of God. They were formed and made then produce offspring. We got all kinds of fossils that prove they existed. But why would the Bible refer to them so much more than to your alledged souless CREATED humans in Genesis 1 ?
In this thread I am affirming that there is a creation story in Genesis 1:1-Genesis 2:3. The history of the man created in the image likeness of God begins in Genesis 5:1...... I am affirming there is a creation story in Genesis 2:4-4:24 which is the history of what happened in the DAY the Lord God created the Heaven and the Earth which was recorded in Genesis 1:1. You arrive at a MAN not created in the image of God whom the bible refers to quite a lot and even calls him the first man. And you arrive at another MAN created in the image of God some time latter who has NO SOUL. This is a very bad system of error.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1505 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
I've always looked at Genesis 1 and 2 as two separate stories -- in 1 God creates the whole place a populates it.
In 2 he creates a 'special' place and man (and woman). This would tend to tie in with Cain knowing his wife in the land of Nod.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1967 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Thanks Bertot,
I'll be back latter. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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ICANT Member  Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Jay,
jaywill writes: No. It means that I do not agree with your interpretation of what the Bible says in this instance. I said: "God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and he became a living being."
Moses writes: Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. 1. Does this say God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and he became a living being? YES/NO I said: God made woman from the rib of the man.
Moses writes: Genesis 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 2. Does this verse say God took the rib he had taken from the man and made a woman? YES/NO I said: "God drove out the man."
Moses writes: Genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. 3. Does this verse say God drove out the man? YES/NO I said: "Conceived and bare Cain."
Moses writes: Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
4. Does this verse say conceived and bare Cain? YES/NO 5. Now where is my interpretation that you disagree with?
jaywill writes: For many centries some brothers in Christ have told each other "Well then, you do not believe the Bible." This is usually rhetorical talk and a bit condescending. But it is ok. I understand we each feel strongly about different interpretations. Either you believe what is recorded in the Bible or you don't. It makes no difference what I or anybody says about your belief. I believe you have the right to believe anything you desire to believe.
jaywill writes: May the Lord bless your labors on that book. I hope it exalts Christ. Thanks. But if it does not exalt Christ it will be a waste of time. He must be the center of everything.
jaywill writes: I have already explained this. This assertion is not an explanation.
jaywill writes: I don't believe that because Eve is not mentioned by name in chapter one that that chapter could not be talking about the first woman created. Matthew writes: Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female, jaywill writes: I suspect that you will point out that the word "them" is supplied by the translators. I suspect you will read it as " ... He who created from the beginning made them male and female. Why would I tell you that when you already know it was supplied by the translators. Why would I use created, Greek word ktiz when poie was used? Jesus was talking about the people who were formed, made which happened to be those in Genesis 2:7 man formed from the dust of the ground and woman made from the rib of the man. He even quoted the man formed from the dust of the ground who said:in Genesis 2:24 "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." jaywill writes: But I think Jesus is referring to both Genesis 1:26,27 and Genesis 2:7,18-25 . And Genesis 5:1 says "Male and female He created them." But Jesus did not use the word for created. He used the word for formed or made. The man and woman in Genesis 2:7 and 2:22 was made. Mankind was created male and female in Genesis 1:27.
jaywill writes: But I think Jesus is referring to both Genesis 1:26,27 and Genesis 2:7,18-25 . And Genesis 5:1 says "Male and female He created them." You can think what ever you desire the text says Jesus was referring to the man and woman made in chapter 2 and He quoted the man formed from the dust of the ground.
jaywill writes: I respect your intense love for the word of God. Thanks. The Bible is the Word of God. I am supposed to be able to understand it. If I don't understand something I am to ask the Spirit to lead me and guide me to the truth. The Word is very specific in many places and I have to get that right. Because I have an appointment with Jesus where I will stand before Him and give an account of every word I have ever spoken concerning His Word and every word I have typed on this web site and others.
jaywill writes: You are saying that before the creation of woman and God's command that humans multiply, there was another woman made not quite in the image of God who was the mother of all living. Of all does not appear in the Hebrew text.
jaywill writes: Now we come to the second account in Genesis two. We have essentially the same matter as far as God and man is concerned. All the animals are brought forth to man. None are suitable to be his counterpart. None match his unique being. That is until the woman is brought forth from him in his sleep. She is bone of his bones and flesh of his flesh. She is woman the reflection of man. The problem is this chapter beginning with verse 4 is the history of the DAY the Lord God created the Heaven and the Earth. That means everything in these verses was completed prior to Genesis 1:2. Show me where the man was placed before the tree of life. He did not know where that tree was. If he had he would have rushed over to it and ate just as soon as he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil knowing that he would die.
jaywill writes: You do great damage to the Bible's revelation by teaching that the man in chapter two is not in the image of God. Then show me where the text says the man formed from the dust of the ground was formed in the image/likeness of God.
jaywill writes: Man is created in a "God shaped" way spiritually and emotionally. Man was created as a living vessel to contain the uncreated divine Person of God as eternal life. Modern man was created in the image/likeness of God some 6,000+ years ago. The record of that creation is found in Genesis 1:27.
jaywill writes: And in chapter two you have man as a created vessel (male and female) brought before the divine life of God signified in the tree of life. The uncreated Person is to fit inside the created person made in His image for a mutual incorporation of God and man. You do not have man created. You have man formed from the dust of the ground. Then God breathed the breath of life into that form and that form became a living being. They did not know where the tree of life was.
jaywill writes: These are two angles only. The same creation of humanity is represented in the two angles. You draw that conclusion from what? You have a man formed from the dust of the ground. You have a man that is created by God speaking, and it was so.
jaywill writes: It is important to His eternal purpose that we see that Adam as the type of Christ was the SOURCE from which his wife came into existence !! The only things they had in common was their love and they both had a physical body. The first man sold us into slavery. Jesus came to buy us back out of slavery. The first man brought death. Jesus brought life. Me thinks you get too carried away in types.
jaywill writes: The Son of God is the SOURCE out from which the eternal city, the kingdom of God and the Body of Christ as His Wife, the New Jerusalem comes into existence. God the Son is the source of everything.
John writes: John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. jaywill writes: I wish you would read "The Glorious Church" by Watchman Nee. In fact I need to re-read it myself. You would probably do better to study the Bible asking the Holy Spirit to lead you and guide you in all truth. The Spirit can't lie, unlike me and everybody else.
jaywill writes: Which creation of man does this refer to? Is that your first class created man or your second class previously made from dust man ? The man that was created in the image/likeness of God. God the Father = MindGod the Son = physical body. God the Holy Spirit = spirit. Yep that is the mankind created in Genesis 1:27.
jaywill writes: They have to do with what I said. Chapter two is a window into the eternal purpose of God to bring forth from Christ His counterpart. Then explain this verse.
Moses writes: 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, What are these the generations of? What day is Moses talking about?
jaywill writes: This city bears the glory of God and is the temple of God. This city in the end of the Bible is the Wife of the incarnate Redeeming God. She is produced out of the death and resurrection of the second man Christ. I agree the New Jerusalem will be inhabited by God Himself. That will be the Triune God. They will then be one and we will understand it. This city is not the Bride of Christ. I don't find where it is produced out of Christ's death and resurrection.
jaywill writes: This city is the destination of all the believers as sons of God. Then why does it have 12 gates that are never shut?
jaywill writes: This city as Christ's Wife is the reason why God created a universe. Where do you get that garbage from?
John writes: Jhn 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. John the Baptist said he was a friend of the bridegroom. He is not a part of the Bride of Christ. He said Jesus already had the Bride. Who did Jesus have? Jesus had His Church which is His Bride. Now as usual you have taken the debate completely away from the OP. Could we discuss what is written in the KJV Bible, LXX and Hebrew test concerning what is written in Genesis chapter 1 and 2?
jaywill writes: Ie. Before MAN was CREATED a MAN was FORMED from Dust who was not in the image of God. He and his wife had descendents and they multiplied in the earth. Sometime latter MAN was Created and Female was created, BUT ... they had no SOULS !! Before man was created in the image/likeness of God. A man was formed from the dust of the ground. God breathed the breath of life into that form and that form became a living soul = being. Soul is living being not a spiritual man. You said earlier that you did not have a problem mixing soul and spirit as the same thing. Have you changed your mind?
jaywill writes: Brother, FELLOWSHIP is good. Have you presented this for fellowship with others experienced in the Christian life as yourself ? My brother tells me that one of the pastors he had after I left north Florida after reviewing my work had come to the same conclusion that I have. As far as I know he and my brother and about 30 others believe the way I do. Which really does not bother me. There is no way as a 11 year old boy I could come up with this view of these texts without the Holy Spirit revealing it to me. Well the devil could have but what would be his reason for doing so?
jaywill writes: Well, the greater number of bibilcal references at key points in the Bible is with them in view. Now if they are not as important as modern man why is so much more said in Scripture about them ?? Because by the disobedience of the man who was formed from the dust of the ground: Death entered into the universe. He died the day he ate the forbidden fruit. All mankind was separated from God. God drove the man from His presence.
jaywill writes: You arrive at a MAN not created in the image of God whom the bible refers to quite a lot and even calls him the first man. And you arrive at another MAN created in the image of God some time latter who has NO SOUL. I have a man formed from the dust of the ground who God breathed the breath of life into that became a living being. This man was formed in the beginning during the day the Heaven and the Earth was created. I then have a man that was created in the image/likeness of God. A man that has a mind, body and spirit. He is a living being. When you say he has no soul what are you referring too? God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1967 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Concerning Genessi 2:7
IANT: 1. Does this say God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and he became a living being? YES/NO YESWhen the breath of spirit of God united with the body formed from the dust the result was that man became a living soul. The three parts of man are indicated there - spirit and soul and body. "And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess. 5:23) The man of Genesis 2 is not another man in kind from the man created by God in Genesis 1:26,27. There is NO man in the entire Bible who is not made in the image of God. There is no man in existence who is not made in the image of God. Some racist theologians supporting slavery in the US taught that the African black man had no soul. These teachings that divide humans up into those with souls and those without are heretical and dangerous. I am not sure if you are teaching this way.
I said: God made woman from the rib of the man. The Recovery Version says that He "built" the rib into a woman. This is a revelation into the building of the New Jerusalem out from Christ's death and resurrection.
"In whom you also are being builded together into a dwelling place of God in spirit" (Eph.2:22) "You yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house into a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (1 Peter. 2:5) "You are God's farm; God's building" (1 Cor. 3:9) " ... I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." (Matt. 16:18) Eve being bult from the life element of Adam, his rib, is a window into the building up of the dwelling place of God, the church and New Jerusalem, from the death and resurrestion of the Son of God.
Moses writes: Genesis 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. I am accustomed to this translation: "And Jehovah God built the rib, which He had taken from the man, into a woman and brought her to the man."
2. Does this verse say God took the rib he had taken from the man and made a woman? YES/NO YES.And this man and woman are not other than the man and woman created in Genesis 1:26,27. Two angles are presented with two different emphasises.
I said: "God drove out the man." Moses writes:Genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. 3. Does this verse say God drove out the man? YES/NO YES. And this is the man created in the image of God in Genesis 1:26,27. It is not some other man previously made, who was not created, or some such theory.
I said: "Conceived and bare Cain." Moses writes:Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. 4. Does this verse say conceived and bare Cain? YES/NO Genesis 4:1 says that Eve conceived and bore Cain. YES
5. Now where is my interpretation that you disagree with? I disagree with the interpretation that any of this indicates another human race as is describd in Genesis 1:26,27. I disagree with the interpretation that Genesis 2 cannot mean that God created them male and female as is plainly indicated in Genesis 5:1. I disagree that the passages in Genesis chapter 2 refer to a pre-Adamic event or represents a pre-Adamic human being. I disagree that God had two economies going on the earth with two different human races, one made in Genesis 2 and a subsequent one created in Genesis 1. I strongly disagree with the interpretation that there is "zero" evidence for the indication of Christ and the church symbolized in chapter 2. I disagree that "This is the book of the generations of Adam. When [or in the day] God created Adam, He made him in the likeness of God" (Gen. 5:1) in any manner whatsoever refers TWO bringings into existence of man on the earth. I disagree with the interpretation that Gen. 5:1 forces the reader to understand that another day of light is refered to beside the 6th day when we are told that God created human beings. And I think it not necessarily wrong to view ONE creation of humanity on earth just because someone taught you that when you were young.
Thanks. But if it does not exalt Christ it will be a waste of time. He must be the center of everything.
Exactly. And if we are told in the Bible that the first man Adam is a type of Christ and you teach that the Adam of Genesis 2 is not the man created in the image and likeness of God in chapter 1, you terribly confuse and obscure the matter and weaken the truth.
"For since through man came death, through man also came the resurrection of the dead." (1 Cor. 15:21) Obscuring this with an opinion about Genesis 1:26,27 refering to a different creation of man than Genesis 2:7 throws Romans into a tailspin. To fit Romans into the babyrinth of your theology weakens Paul's apostolic teaching which exalts Christ.
"For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive" (Rom. 15:22) Obscuring this by teaching that this was the Adam made before MAN was created fogs this truth up so much, one does not know where he is. I think it weakens Paul's Christ exalting teaching of Romans and throws the follower of your theology into a labyrinth of obscurity for the sake of figuring out when animals were made.
"The first man is out of the earth, earthly, the second man is out of heaven." (Rom. 15:47) Adding to this that there are TWO human races created in the Bible one made and a latter one created without a soul, throws this clear revelation into a maze of questionings and geneologies weakening the truth. All the constrast between Adam and Christ in Romans become obscure as soon as you introduce another first man, created "elsewhere" in Gen. 1:26,27, who had no soul. I think these interpretation distract from Christ rather than exalt Christ. They tend to distract me into questionings about animals, uncreated women, souless humans created in the image of God, TWO human races in the word of God. There is such a thing as deeper teaching which should not be pre-maturely administered to those accustomed to the milk of the word. But I do not think you present here something more "meaty" and solid. I think you have something wrong.
Why would I use created, Greek word ktiz when poie was used? Jesus was talking about the people who were formed, made which happened to be those in Genesis 2:7 man formed from the dust of the ground and woman made from the rib of the man. He even quoted the man formed from the dust of the ground who said:in Genesis 2:24 "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." The church is God's POEMO, masterpiece, "workmanship" (KJV) (Eph. 2:10). But she has many aspects. She is also called the new man. And the new man was created in Christ. So saying that Eve or the church was formed or does not insist that Eve or the church was not also created. In fact Christ in resurrection as the Head of the church is called "the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev.3:14) The creation of God in Revelation 3:14 is the new creation of man indwelt with by the divine life of the resurrected Christ. This is the beginning of His creation of the church also revealed in Colossians 1:18:
"And He is the Head of the Body, the church; He is the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead, that He Himself might have the first place in all things." (Col. 1:18) So the builded church is also called "the creation of God" of which Christ is the Head and the Beginning in resurrection. In fact if any man be in Christ he is a new creation:
"So then if anyone is in Christ, [he] is a new creation,. The old things have passed away; behold, they have become new." (2 Cor. 4:17) All this is to prove that though the coming about of the church is a building, a forming, a making, it is also a new creation. And hence we have two sides of the coming into existence of Eve. Male and female God created the human race. But on the other hand the woman was built and the man was formed from the dust.
jaywill writes: But I think Jesus is referring to both Genesis 1:26,27 and Genesis 2:7,18-25 . And Genesis 5:1 says "Male and female He created them." But Jesus did not use the word for created. He used the word for formed or made. I don't think for the sake of Matthew 19:4 you should deduce TWO human races with TWO different beginings in the Scripture. Colossian 1:16 says that because of Christ all things were created:
"Because in Him all things were created, in the heavens, and on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities; all things have been created thrugh Him and unto Him." (Col. 1:16) Are you going to say woman is not on the earth and was not created through Christ ? Are you going to teach the Apostle Paul that Eve on the earth out of Adam's rib was not CREATED through Christ ? Eph. 3:9 says that God created all things:
" ... the mystery ..., which throughout the ages was hidden in God Who created all things ..." (Eph. 3:9) Are you going to instruct Paul that Eve was not created by God ?Are you going to inform Paul that the man in Genesis 2 was not created by the God who created all things ?
The man and woman in Genesis 2:7 and 2:22 was made. Mankind was created male and female in Genesis 1:27. " ... in Him all things were created, in the heavens, AND ON THE EARTH. the visible and the invisible ..." (Col. 1:15) Was the woman built from Adam's rib visible? Was Eve visible ?
" ... God, who created all things" (Eph. 3:9) Is Eve one of "all things" ? I'll be back latter. The Lord be with your spirit. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1967 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
You can think what ever you desire the text says Jesus was referring to the man and woman made in chapter 2 and He quoted the man formed from the dust of the ground. Do you think that the man created in Genesis 1:26,27 did not have a rib because a rib was not mentioned ? Do you think that because sleep was not mentioned in Genesis 1:26,27 therefore that man did not sleep ? You are building an unwarrented theology on these verses because of silence. You say man in Gen. 1:26 has no soul because "man became a living soul" is not mentioned. Or you say man in gen 1:26 is souless because the soul is not mentioned. Yes, I can indeed think what I wish concening the truth of Scripture. But this is rhetorical tit for tat. Let's get into the issues of interpretation.
"We are His masterpiece [the church] CREATED in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:10). Like the woman out of Adam, Christ's Body is both formed and created.
The Bible is the Word of God. I am supposed to be able to understand it. If I don't understand something I am to ask the Spirit to lead me and guide me to the truth. The Word is very specific in many places and I have to get that right. Because I have an appointment with Jesus where I will stand before Him and give an account of every word I have ever spoken concerning His Word and every word I have typed on this web site and others. Yes, me also. And James said that all the teachers make mistakes. I think you have made one.
jaywill writes: You are saying that before the creation of woman and God's command that humans multiply, there was another woman made not quite in the image of God who was the mother of all living. ICANT:Of all does not appear in the Hebrew text. Neither does "of SOME" appear. Is there a person named in the Bible who does not have Eve as an eventual mother ? Who ? I have to break up this long exchange into sections.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1967 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Then explain this verse. Moses writes:2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, What are these the generations of? What day is Moses talking about? I want to devote one post to that matter. But I submit Mr. Pember's interpretation which I am studying interspersed with my comments in brackets:
"And so the first section of this wonderful history closes with a summary of the subject and an introduction to the next part in the words:
These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, and every plant of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not causedd it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. etc,... Here the creation of the heavens and earth, that is, of the whole universe, refers, of course, to the creation in the beginning. But the making or preparing of the earth and the heavens points to the Six Days of restoration [and further creation bara, ie. sea creatures, man] And this is indicated not only by the change in the verb, but also by the inverted order, "the earth and the heavens", which is only found in one other passage, and is plainly significant. For the Hebrew word for "heavens" has no singular, and it was this impossible to make in the Old Testament a distinction such as we often find in the New, shere the singular of the Greek word is generally used for the first heaven or firmament of our earth, while the plural comprises the starry reakms and the heaven of heavens. Hence some other device was necessary, and the fct that "the heavens" in the second clause of this verse mean the firmament of earth is indicated by the inverted order. And this order is also the historical one: for the firmament was not made perfect, so that sun, moon, and stars could be seen in it, until after the entire restoration of the earth. The same sequence in the hundred and forty-eighth Psalm is explained by the seventh verse, "Praise the Lord from the earth." For this Psalm is divided into two parts: in the first six verses praise of God is invoked from the starry vault and the heaven of heavens, in the last eight from the earth and its atmosphere. Hence in the thirteenth verse the glory of the Lord is appropriately said to be above "the earth and the heaven," earth being first mentioned because here also by heaven ius meant the firmament which belongs and is, therefore, suborninate to it." [Earth's Earliest Ages, G.H. Pember, pg. 72, Revell] I believe in a creation/destruction/restoration (and further creation) model of the universe. The way I understand your explanation is that God made man when He created heaven and earth in the beginning. Then there was the destruction due to the Satanic rebellion. Then there was the six day restoration and further creation in which God CREATED man in His image. However, I don't think this is right. The pre-Adamic world had no human beings. Man was created in the six days of restoration and further creation of Genesis 1. And a second account of man's forming and the building of the wife is in chapter 2. Neither of these chapters, I am pretty sure, refer to a pre-Adam humanity.
I believe the creation of the heavens and the earth refers to the creation in the beginning. When He made earth and heaven refers to the six days of His restoration and further creation work. "These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created ..." (CREATION Genesis 1:1) "When [or in the day] when Jehovah God made earth and heaven, and no plant of the field was yet in the earth ..." (RESTORATION of the Six Days and further creation of man)
jaywill writes: This city bears the glory of God and is the temple of God. This city in the end of the Bible is the Wife of the incarnate Redeeming God. She is produced out of the death and resurrection of the second man Christ. I agree the New Jerusalem will be inhabited by God Himself. That will be the Triune God. They will then be one and we will understand it. We are in the foretaste of this now. We who are Christians are already joined to the Triune God in the innermost being of our human spirit:
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17) "The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you. (2 Tim. 4:22) " ... and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6) Meaning the human spirit is regenerated by God the Holy Spirit. This is a union and mingling of God and man already.
"But if Christ is in you ..." (Rom. 8:10) "Do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you ...?" (2 Cor. 13:5) "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Col. 1:27) "Whosoever confesses that Jesus is the Christ, God abides in him and he in God." (1 John 4:14) Before I lose this post on a technical big finger, I submit it. The point here is that we Christians are already in the foretaste of God and man being mingled together. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1967 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
ICANT,
God bless you. And the Lord be with your spirit. Concerning the New Jerusalem you say:
This city is not the Bride of Christ. Yes it is, unless Christ has TWO brides and TWO wives.This city is the enlargement of the New Testament church to now contain all of the Old Testament believers as well. She is the church. Those who constitute the church today are, or should be, in the foretaste of this holy city. This body in eternity future will consist of the new covenant believers and the old covnant believers. This is evidence by the names of the twelve apostles on her foundations to represent the new testament believers, and the names of the twelve tribes of Israel on her gates to signify the old testament believers. The old testament believers believed in Son of God as Messiah to come. The new testament believers believed into the Son of God arrived. Ephesians tells us that the church is Christ's wife in chapter 5. Christ does not obtain an additional wife in Revelation 21,22. Tis the same Body. It is the Body of Christ enlarged.
I don't find where it is produced out of Christ's death and resurrection. When He died on the cross, blood and water came out of His side. Blood signifying redemption. Water signifying divine life. From the blood and water that came from the side of Jesus Christ the church was produced. By His shed blood and by the impartation of His divine life His Wife came into existence. This reminds some of us of the rib taken from the side of Adam which was built into his wife. Adam slept for the extraction from his side of the material to build Eve. This was a type of Christ's death in which blood and water poured from His side to produce the church. But if this is too much of a stretch for you, Ephesian chapter five explicitly says that the church is the wife of Christ AND the body of Christ. And it was produced through His death and resurrection. Before you complete your book I would encourage you to read in Spirit "The Glorious Church" by brother Nee. It is also in The Collected Works of Watchman Nee published by Living Stream Ministry as Volume 34.
jaywill writes: This city is the destination of all the believers as sons of God. Thank God He revealed this to me, to many of us.
Then why does it have 12 gates that are never shut? It is not a physical city or gold and pearls. In Revelation 21 and 22 the New Jerusalem city is a SIGN. It is a sign of a profound reality. The gates opened to the four directions signify the entrance into the Triune God and the glorious city is open to all people over all the earth. The gates of pearl signify Christ's life secreting death by which man enters into the eternal city New Jerusalem. You see a pearl is produced from an oyster. When a particle of sand wounds the oyster it secrets a liquid around the wound and changes the offending particle of sand into a pearl. Christ is the OYSTER of God which came to this world as to the bottom of a sea of death. And on the cross we wounded Him with our sins. In His love He poured out His life for us. That was the life of a God-man. He not only poured out His life for the sinner who offended Him. He pours out His life around the sinner. He transforms the sinner into a precious son of God. This life secreting death of Jesus is out entrance into the kingdom of God. Therefore the symbolism of the Holy Spirit is that the gates of the city are pearls. It does not mean that a giant oyster like Godzilla produced a huge gate. The 12 gates are a sign of Christ's life secreting death is man's only entrance into to eternal city of the Triune God. I can share much more about this latter. His resurrection is seen in that once a man steps through the gate of pearl he is immediately on the street of gold. There is only ONE street in the city. Double check that. It is not the streets of gold. It is the ONE STREET of gold. The street spirals around like a spiral and covers all twelve gates. The gold signifies the divine nature of the Father. The sinner is regenerated through Christ's pouring out His life for and around the sinner. And the sinner is on the ONE Christian street of the divine nature of the Father. The believer has Christ living in her or him as the divine nature. We believers have become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4) This divine nature which is the Father's divine nature is also the indwelling Christ who has come to live in us. He is our street. He is the way we walk. We all have on walk of the divine nature. There is no Baptist walk, no Presbyterian walk, no Lutheran walk, no Pentacostal walk. There is only the walk of the divine nature of the Triune God. And as you said we will all give an account to the Lord. We Christians will all give an account of how we walked by that divine nature we received once we were born again. Once we were born again we immediately got onto the golden street. And we immediately began to drink the water of life flowing the way the street goes. We eat Christ as the tree of life. We drink the Spirit as the water of life. And we walk on the golden street as the divine nature of Christ. Revelation 21 and 22 is all a symbolic representation not only of the normal Christian church life but of what we will enjoy in a fuller way in eternity in the new heaven and new earth.
jaywill writes: This city as Christ's Wife is the reason why God created a universe. Where do you get that garbage from? The New Jerusalem is the reason why God created the universe. I would use two passages to prove that:
"Even as He chose us before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." (Eph. 1:5) This verse says that the believers were predestinated for SONSHIP. That is to be in God's divine family sharing God's holy nature to express God in man. In the New Jerusalem God says "He who overcomes wil inherit these things, and I will be God to him, and he will be a son to Me." (Rev. 21:7) So New Jerusalem is all about God obtaining sons of God. But the point is that in Ephesians "before the foundation of the world" means before the creation of the universe. The strong implication Ephesians 1:5 is that before God laid the foundation of the world, ie. before He created the universe, He ALREADY had a plan to have many sons of Himself. Therefore, the implication is that first He had a desire to have sons. And then based upon this good pleasure and this desire He then laid the foundation of the world. He then created the heavens and the earth. His plan to have sons and to predestinate them to be His sons was the reason why He laid the foundation of the world and created the universe. The second passage I would appeal to is Revelation 4:11.
"You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, for You have created all things, and because of Your will they were, and were created." 9Rev. 4:11) This verse tells us that all things were created because of God's will. There is no question that the New Jerusalem in the end of the Bible is the climax and the culmination of all of God's operating in time. The New Jerusalem is the outcome, the climax, the completion of His divine move. Revelation 4:11 says that all things were created because of His will. This does not simply mean that all things were created because of God's will power. It means that all things were created because of God's eternal purpose and eternal plan. This eternal plan and eternal purpose is revealed in the climax of th 66 books of the divine revelation. It is the New Jerusalem. And in her the final reality of this passage also is culminated:
"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers; And those whom He predestinated, these He also called; and those whom He called, these He also justified; and those whom He justofied, these He also glorified." (Rom. 8:28-30) The New Jerusalem is the aggregate of the predestinated, called, justified, conformed and glorified sons of God. They are built up in love and in divine life to be Christ's corperate bride. And they are built up to be the eternal habitation of God in spirit, God dwelling in man. And it is for this that God created the heavens and the earth. That is that this eternal city may be for His expression and man's enjoyment bearing God's image and excercising God's dominion over the new heaven and new earth in eternity future. I will pause here. The Lord be with your spirit. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1967 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
John the Baptist said he was a friend of the bridegroom. He is not a part of the Bride of Christ. He said Jesus already had the Bride. Who did Jesus have? Jesus had His Church which is His Bride. Now as usual you have taken the debate completely away from the OP. Could we discuss what is written in the KJV Bible, LXX and Hebrew test concerning what is written in Genesis chapter 1 and 2?
John the Baptist also said that he, John, must decrease but Christ must encrease. Therefore the more and more people added to Jesus Christ was the encrease of Christ. The Bride of the Bridegroom is therefore encreasing more and more as John and all the followings of other prophets are decreasing. They are all losing their followers TO CHRIST. Eventually, John himself also is added to Christ. For the New Jerusalem has not only the names of the twelve new testament apostles on her foundations but the names of the twelve tribes of Israel on her gates. This should mean that the old covenant, new covenant saints and the saints in transition like John the Baptist are all added to this one Body to be the encrease of Christ. Christ is enlarged to contain all of the people in both covenants who have trusted in God.
Could we discuss what is written in the KJV Bible, LXX and Hebrew test concerning what is written in Genesis chapter 1 and 2? Yes. Of my most used English translations KJV is about 5th on the list. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Jay,
jaywill writes: YESWhen the breath of spirit of God united with the body formed from the dust the result was that man became a living soul. The three parts of man are indicated there - spirit and soul and body. Thanks for the answer. The commentary was not necessary as it is not supported by the verse under discussion. But since you gave it, Where is the Spirit mentioned?
jaywill writes: There is NO man in the entire Bible who is not made in the image of God. There is no man in existence who is not made in the image of God. Where in the formation of the man in Genesis 2:7 does it say this man was made in the image of God?
jaywill writes: Some racist theologians supporting slavery in the US taught that the African black man had no soul. If I am going to keep responding to your topic you have opened in my thread I need some definitions. What is the meaning of: SoulSpirit Mind Church Family Bride City Foundation Gates That will do for starters.
jaywill writes: The Recovery Version says that He "built" the rib into a woman. I have no problem with build as opposed to make. I ran a cabinet shop for many years I made or built cabinets. I do have a problem with your commentary as it is not mentioned in Chapter 2 of Genesis. Therefore it comes from some man's imagination.
jaywill writes: "In whom you also are being builded together into a dwelling place of God in spirit" (Eph.2:22) "You yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house into a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (1 Peter. 2:5) "You are God's farm; God's building" (1 Cor. 3:9) " ... I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." (Matt. 16:18) What does any of that have to do with what is said in Genesis 2:22?
2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. jaywill writes: Eve being bult from the life element of Adam, his rib, is a window into the building up of the dwelling place of God, the church and New Jerusalem, from the death and resurrestion of the Son of God. The woman was built from the rib from man. But the text does not support your commentary. That came from the imagination of some man.
jaywill writes: YES.And this man and woman are not other than the man and woman created in Genesis 1:26,27. Two angles are presented with two different emphasises. Thanks for your answer. The commentary was not necessary and is not supported by the verse quoted.
jaywill writes: YES. And this is the man created in the image of God in Genesis 1:26,27. It is not some other man previously made, who was not created, or some such theory. Thanks for you answer. The commentary was not necessary and is not supported by the verse quoted.
jaywill writes: Genesis 4:1 says that Eve conceived and bore Cain. YES Thanks for the answer.
jaywill writes: I disagree with the interpretation that any of this indicates another human race as is describd in Genesis 1:26,27. But I did not give such an interpretation. I simply ask 5 Questions.
jaywill writes: I disagree with the interpretation that Genesis 2 cannot mean that God created them male and female as is plainly indicated in Genesis 5:1. But I did not give such an interpretation. I simply ask 5 Questions.
jaywill writes: I disagree that the passages in Genesis chapter 2 refer to a pre-Adamic event or represents a pre-Adamic human being. But I did not give such an interpretation. I simply ask 5 Questions.
jaywill writes: I disagree that God had two economies going on the earth with two different human races, one made in Genesis 2 and a subsequent one created in Genesis 1. But I did not give such an interpretation. I simply ask 5 Questions.
jaywill writes: I strongly disagree with the interpretation that there is "zero" evidence for the indication of Christ and the church symbolized in chapter 2. But I did not give such an interpretation. I simply ask 5 Questions.
jaywill writes: I disagree that "This is the book of the generations of Adam. When [or in the day] God created Adam, He made him in the likeness of God" (Gen. 5:1) in any manner whatsoever refers TWO bringings into existence of man on the earth. But I did not give such an interpretation. I simply ask 5 Questions.
jaywill writes: I disagree with the interpretation that Gen. 5:1 forces the reader to understand that another day of light is refered to beside the 6th day when we are told that God created human beings. But I did not give such an interpretation. I simply ask 5 Questions.
jaywill writes: Exactly. And if we are told in the Bible that the first man Adam is a type of Christ and you teach that the Adam of Genesis 2 is not the man created in the image and likeness of God in chapter 1, you terribly confuse and obscure the matter and weaken the truth. What do you consider a type of something? I need your definition of type.
jaywill writes: For since through man came death, through man also came the resurrection of the dead." (1 Cor. 15:21) One brings death. The other brings life. The only type there is anti-type.
jaywill writes: Obscuring this with an opinion about Genesis 1:26,27 refering to a different creation of man than Genesis 2:7 throws Romans into a tailspin. To fit Romans into the babyrinth of your theology weakens Paul's apostolic teaching which exalts Christ. "For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive" (Rom. 15:22) The man formed from the dust of the ground ate the fruit and brought the penalty of death into the universe. This brought death to all mankind. All mankind can be reunited to God through the sacrifice at Calvary thus being made alive. So what is the problem?
jaywill writes: Obscuring this by teaching that this was the Adam made before MAN was created fogs this truth up so much, one does not know where he is. I think it weakens Paul's Christ exalting teaching of Romans and throws the follower of your theology into a labyrinth of obscurity for the sake of figuring out when animals were made. "The first man is out of the earth, earthly, the second man is out of heaven." (Rom. 15:47) You need to correct that quote as it is from 1 Corinthians 15:47.
1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. The first man was made/formed a living soul.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. The second man the Lord from heaven. So the first man is the one formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:;7.
jaywill writes: Adding to this that there are TWO human races created in the Bible one made and a latter one created without a soul, throws this clear revelation into a maze of questionings and geneologies weakening the truth. Not really. You have the generations of the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis chapter 4. You have the generations of the man created in the image/likeness of God in Genesis chapter 5. What is the problem?
jaywill writes: All the constrast between Adam and Christ in Romans become obscure as soon as you introduce another first man, created "elsewhere" in Gen. 1:26,27, who had no soul. Why? All instances of the first man in Romans is referring to the man who was formed from the dust of the earth in Genesis 2:7.
jaywill writes: I think these interpretation distract from Christ rather than exalt Christ. They tend to distract me into questionings about animals, uncreated women, souless humans created in the image of God, TWO human races in the word of God. There is no interpretation involved. All that I have presented in recorded in the first two chapters of Genesis.
jaywill writes: There is such a thing as deeper teaching which should not be pre-maturely administered to those accustomed to the milk of the word. But I do not think you present here something more "meaty" and solid. I think you have something wrong. You are allowed to think whatever you desire to think. Just don't think you can change what God said or did by thinking differently that what He said or did.
jaywill writes: "And He is the Head of the Body, the church; He is the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead, that He Himself might have the first place in all things." (Col. 1:18) Lets break this down a little. He is the Head of the Body.What is the Body? He is the Head of the Church.What constitutes a Church? He is the beginning.John tells us Jesus was the beginning of everything John 1:1... He is the Firstborn from the dead.He was the first Spiritual Being that was resurrected in a new body. And when He came forth from the grave many followed Him. That He may have first place in all things.That is the reason for the universe and its inhabitants. jaywill writes: "So then if anyone is in Christ, [he] is a new creation,. The old things have passed away; behold, they have become new." (2 Cor. 4:17) When a person is born of the Spirit into God's family the Holy Spirits takes up His abode in the spirit of man. That spirit can never commit sin, It has been made anew.
jaywill writes: All this is to prove that though the coming about of the church is a building, a forming, a making, it is also a new creation. The above verse has nothing to do with the Church.
jaywill writes: I don't think for the sake of Matthew 19:4 you should deduce TWO human races with TWO different beginings in the Scripture. Matthew 19:4 does not teach two different beginnings.It just refers to the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7. It does not refer to the man created in the image/likeness of God in Genesis 1:27.
jaywill writes: Colossian 1:16 says that because of Christ all things were created: "Because in Him all things were created, in the heavens, and on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or lordships or rulers or authorities; all things have been created thrugh Him and unto Him." (Col. 1:16) The Greek text says:
1 Colossian 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: John writes: John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God. 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. Christ made everything.
jaywill writes: Are you going to say woman is not on the earth and was not created through Christ ? Are you going to teach the Apostle Paul that Eve on the earth out of Adam's rib was not CREATED through Christ ? Christ made the woman out of the rib of the first man who was formed from the dust of the ground.
jaywill writes: " ... the mystery ..., which throughout the ages was hidden in God Who created all things ..." (Eph. 3:9) Are you going to instruct Paul that Eve was not created by God ?Are you going to inform Paul that the man in Genesis 2 was not created by the God who created all things ? No but I will instruct you that Paul knew what the Greek word he used in Eph. 3:9 means. So here the definition is for you. 1) to make habitable, to people, a place, region, island a) to found a city, colony, state He knew it meant to make. Thanks for your answer to my questions. I am glad to see you agree that the Bible says what it says. On to your next sermon. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Jay,
jaywill writes: Do you think that the man created in Genesis 1:26,27 did not have a rib because a rib was not mentioned ? Do you think that because sleep was not mentioned in Genesis 1:26,27 therefore that man did not sleep ? We have ribs so I assume he had ribs. We sleep so I assume he slept. I do not assume God took a rib from this man and formed a female. The text does not support such an assumption. This man also had a light period followed by a dark period. The man in Genesis 2:7 had a light period only. There was no way of telling time as there was only existence. That is the reason there are no ages for the generations in chapter 4 I assume.
jaywill writes: You are building an unwarrented theology on these verses because of silence. You say man in Gen. 1:26 has no soul because "man became a living soul" is not mentioned. Or you say man in gen 1:26 is souless because the soul is not mentioned. If your definition of soul is living being I will agree that the man in Genesis 1:27 was a living being.
jaywill writes: "We are His masterpiece [the church] CREATED in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:10). Like the woman out of Adam, Christ's Body is both formed and created. I will defer on this until I get your definitions.
jaywill writes: Yes, me also. And James said that all the teachers make mistakes. I think you have made one. I wish I had only made one.
jaywill writes: Neither does "of SOME" appear. Is there a person named in the Bible who does not have Eve as an eventual mother ? Who ? The man who was formed from the dust of the ground is the first that comes to mind. All the descendants of the mankind created in the image/likeness of God male and female. These people can not trace their lineage to Eve as she did not exist at Genesis 1:2. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1967 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Thanks for the answer. The commentary was not necessary as it is not supported by the verse under discussion. Well, I think quoting me the verse and asking me if it says that is kind of sparse. So I thought to add something.
But since you gave it, Where is the Spirit mentioned? I did not say that the Spirit as the Third of the Triune God is mentioned at all in Genesis 2:7. The breath of life breathed out by God into the nostrils of man is very metaphysical. But I do not believe it was refering to God's Person of the Spirit. It did supply man with something very close to God's Spirit.
jaywill writes: There is NO man in the entire Bible who is not made in the image of God. There is no man in existence who is not made in the image of God. Where in the formation of the man in Genesis 2:7 does it say this man was made in the image of God? Now you know that I have given you my answer on this already. I know that you reject that answer from Genesis 5:1. Which does not use image but does refer to likeness of God. And I think one of the pair of the two words probably indicates the other also. I am aware that you do not believe that Genesis 5:1 refers to Genesis 2:7 but to only Genesis 1:26,27. We disagree on this point and neither one of us is likely to budge. I will think about additional evidence. But not now.
jaywill writes: Some racist theologians supporting slavery in the US taught that the African black man had no soul. If I am going to keep responding to your topic you have opened in my thread I need some definitions. What is the meaning of: It is germane to the discussion that a teaching of a souless human being has been proposed in history. And the result was not that good. That is all I intended by that comment.
Soul Spirit Mind Church Family Bride City Foundation Gates That will do for starters.
Soul - means the mind plus the emotions plus the will. These three components make up the human soul.
Spirit - By your capitalization of Spirit I assume you mean God Himself. I hope we have an understanding that I did NOT say that in 2:7 the Spirit of God is mentioned. I do not believe that the Spirit as God Himself is mentioned in Genesis 2:7. God breathed into man's nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul. A small s spirit there is something out of God as a for man that was very close to God Himself.
Mind - The part of the soul that thinks
Church - The living entity produced by the resurrected Christ dispensing His life into His redeemed people, conforming them and transfirming them, building them up to be His mystical Body. This is a very big subject that I have given a very brief definition to.
Family - As I used it I think I mean those who share the divine nature of God with God. Bride - That church perfected and prepared for Christ's satisfaction. In other words the church or an overcoming remnant of the whole church which has been perfected to be Christ's counterpart. This is a big subject with a sparse definition here. If you object to any of these larger subjects which I have only spoken to in briefest terms, I will understand but be disappointed. Do not expect me in 25 words or less fully define some of these terms.
City - Because bride is a collective it is also called a city. That is the church is a collective. That is many many people. So it is also called a city. City here means PEOPLE and not physical streets and buildings and stores and shops etc. The aggregate of many redeemed and transformed PEOPLE constitute the city of New Jerusalem, millions and probably billions of them. Somewhere in the Gospel of Mark it says that the whole city went out to see Jesus. It means the PEOPLE went out to see Him.
Foundation - As I used it for Revelation 21 and 22 I mean the underlying supporting reality of the city New Jerusalem. This is symbolic in Revelation. We are told that Christ is the foundation of the church. We are also told that the church is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. Gates - As I used it a refered to the symbol, the sign signfying man's entrance into the New Jerusalem. The gates speak of the entering into God's eternal purpose through Christ and Christ's work in God's economy.
jaywill writes: The Recovery Version says that He "built" the rib into a woman. I have no problem with build as opposed to make. I ran a cabinet shop for many years I made or built cabinets. I do have a problem with your commentary as it is not mentioned in Chapter 2 of Genesis. Therefore it comes from some man's imagination. Often the person suspicious in this way is so because he himself has such a fertile imagination. As face answers to face in water, so the mind of a man reflects the man. Since this is interpretation of symbolism I will not fight over whether this is a sanctified imagination under the enfluence of the Holy Spirit or just a wild unsanctified imagination. Though the Bible nowhere states explicitly that Joseph is a type of Jesus Christ, it is pretty obvious that he is. And we are told that Adam is a type of Christ by Paul. So to compare Adam to Christ under the enlighenment of the Holy Spirit could conceivably lead to insight into the details of the lives of both. Ie. Adam slept. Christ died.Adam's rib was extracted. Christ's blood was extracted and He gave us Himself as the life giving Spirit - [b]"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45). I have no problem seeing parallels in Adam's sleep and awakening to find Eve his wife with Christ death and resurrection to find His Wife the church. Let us just say, he who can receive it, receives it.
jaywill writes: "In whom you also are being builded together into a dwelling place of God in spirit" (Eph.2:22) "You yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house into a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (1 Peter. 2:5) "You are God's farm; God's building" (1 Cor. 3:9) " ... I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." (Matt. 16:18) What does any of that have to do with what is said in Genesis 2:22? It has to do with the building of Adam's wife as a type of the building up of the church for Christ.
2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. Correct. And it has to do with:
"Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her ... That He might present the church to Himself glorious, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she would be holy and without blemish" It has to do with Ephesians 5:22-33. It has to do with the second man Christ, being presented with a corperate body of sons of God made to match Him. He died not only for you and I as individual sinners. Much more He died for the church - "Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her" . Chapter 2 is a window into the eternal purpose of God to obtain a Wife for the God-man Jesus Christ. She is also His Body. The parallels are rich and hard to not notice. Haven't you sung the classic hymn The Church's One Foundation? Nothing goes to heaven except what came out of heaven. The church is out of Christ and contains Christ. She will be saturated with Christ and permeated with Christ. She will eventually MATCH Christ. And He also can say "This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of My flesh" Eve brought to Adam to marry Adam to be Adam's counterpart and helpmeet is a shadow of Christ being joined by His church.
jaywill writes: Eve being bult from the life element of Adam, his rib, is a window into the building up of the dwelling place of God, the church and New Jerusalem, from the death and resurrestion of the Son of God. The woman was built from the rib from man. But the text does not support your commentary. That came from the imagination of some man. You may take it that way if you wish. But it is interesting that you don't take this as rather imaginative: Man was made not created in Genesis 2. He multiplied and his wife was the mother of [all] living. Both are refered to many times in the Bible. But they were not the real modern humanity. The real modern humanity was created not formed in Genesis 1 in the image of God. But for some strange reason they did not have souls because souls were not mentioned in Genesis 1:26,27. It is strange to me that you do not regard this as someone standing up and saying "Look at me everybody. I can say something original!" You do not see a lot of imagination in that ? I bet I can find more commentators who would agree that chapter two is a window of Christ and the church in some form if not in all details as I have written. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1967 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
On to your next sermon. I have skipped down to the end of your post and caught this comment. So I suppose that what you really want is for no one to interfer with YOUR thread with discussion. So I think I will stop contributing to "YOUR thread" and let you espouse your teaching unexamined. For a season we had some pretty good fellowship. I sense now your fed up with having your teaching closely examined in some aspects. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Jay,
jaywill writes: I believe in a creation/destruction/restoration (and further creation) model of the universe. Welcome to the club. I believe in a creation found in Genesis 1:1 with its history given beginning at Genesis 2:4 through Genesis 4:24. I believe in some kind of destruction that occurred for which there is no record given in the texts. I believe there was a restoration begun in Genesis 1:2 through Genesis 2:3.
jaywill writes: The way I understand your explanation is that God made man when He created heaven and earth in the beginning. Then there was the destruction due to the Satanic rebellion. Then there was the six day restoration and further creation in which God CREATED man in His image. I believe God created the Heaven and the Earth in the beginning which was a light period of undetermined existence. All the things in Genesis 2:4 through Genesis 4:24 took place in that light period. The man who was formed from the dust of the ground that ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and was told he would die the day he ate that fruit did die in that light period along will all his descendants. You call these people pre-Adamic race. I classify them as mankind because that is what God classified them as. I have no idea what caused the destruction that prevailed in Genesis 1:2. I know there are those who say it was Satan when he was kicked out of heaven in his fall. Problem is he is still in heaven.
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. Since Satan was in Heaven in Job's days He could not have been cast out prior to Genesis 1:2 to cause the destruction or condition the Earth was in, in Genesis 1:2. Satan is said in Revelation to have accused the brethren before God day and night. This could not have ceased even until this day. Therefore this is yet to come to pass.
jaywill writes: However, I don't think this is right. The pre-Adamic world had no human beings. Man was created in the six days of restoration and further creation of Genesis 1. And a second account of man's forming and the building of the wife is in chapter 2. You have made this assertion several times already. That is simple to determine and you don't even have to think. Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth. Genesis 2:4 says, "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens," Genesis 2:7 says, "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." The following verses tells us what else God formed in that day. We then find the earth after whatever it was that caused it to be as it is in Genesis 1:2 uninhabitable by mankind. God did some work on it to make it habitable, in Genesis 1:3-10. God then called forth vegetation from the seed on the ground. Genesis 1:11, 12. God then made the light in the heavens visible from earth. Genesis 1:14-18. God then called forth fish and fowl from the water after their kind. Genesis 1:20 He then created great whales and finally ended His creation work by creating mankind male and female. Then God ceased His creating works. Genesis 1:21 He then called forth creatures after their kind. Genesis 1:24, 25. He then made mankind male and female. Genesis 1:25, 26. God then ceased His creating. Genesis 2:1, 2.
jaywill writes: Neither of these chapters, I am pretty sure, refer to a pre-Adam humanity. I agree. The mankind formed from the dust of the earth was called mankind. Adam if you prefer. The mankind created male and female in Genesis 1:27 was called mankind. Adam if you prefer.
jaywill writes: I believe the creation of the heavens and the earth refers to the creation in the beginning. When He made earth and heaven refers to the six days of His restoration and further creation work. You need to correct this quote because these are not my words they are yours.
jaywill writes: "When [or in the day] when Jehovah God made earth and heaven, and no plant of the field was yet in the earth ..." (RESTORATION of the Six Days and further creation of man) Whose commentary are you quoting here? The scriptures I agree with. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Jay,
jaywill writes: Well, I think quoting me the verse and asking me if it says that is kind of sparse. So I thought to add something. We are told the consequences of adding something to God's Word.
jaywill writes: The breath of life breathed out by God into the nostrils of man is very metaphysical. But I do not believe it was refering to God's Person of the Spirit. It did supply man with something very close to God's Spirit. The text is simple and plain it says, "breath of life". That is all that it is.
jaywill writes: Now you know that I have given you my answer on this already. I know that you reject that answer from Genesis 5:1. Which does not use image but does refer to likeness of God. And I think one of the pair of the two words probably indicates the other also. But Genesis 5:1 does not refer to the man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7. It does specifically refer to the male and female created in the image/likeness of God in Genesis 1:27.
Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Now compare with:
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. This male and female was created in the image of God. Then if you compare 5:1, 2 to:
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. There is nothing to compare.
jaywill writes: Soul - means the mind plus the emotions plus the will. These three components make up the human soul. I have no idea where you come up with that definition from. The text says God put the breath of life into the form. It says nothing about mind, emotions or will.
jaywill writes: Spirit - By your capitalization of Spirit I assume you mean God Himself. I always capitalize all words that begin a statement or sentence. So I need your definition for Spirit, spirit.
jaywill writes: Mind - The part of the soul that thinks Are you telling me the mind can die? The soul that sinneth shall die. Every living being sins and therefore dies.
jaywill writes: Church - The living entity produced by the resurrected Christ dispensing His life into His redeemed people, conforming them and transfirming them, building them up to be His mystical Body. This is a very big subject that I have given a very brief definition to. Which tell me you have no idea what the Church is. Church, ekklesia means: 1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly. a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating That means any called out assembly is a church. Lions club, Masons, Chamber of Commerce etc. So what would a New Testament Church be? It would be a called out assembly for a specific purpose. When did Jesus call out specific people for a specific purpose?
Matthew 4:18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers. 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men. Jesus called out two men to be fishers of men. That is the formation of the first Church of the Lord Jesus Christ.
jaywill writes: Family - As I used it I think I mean those who share the divine nature of God with God. A family is related by birth. To be in the Family of God you must be born into His Family. The Church and Family are two different entities.
jaywill writes: Bride - That church perfected and prepared for Christ's satisfaction. In other words the church or an overcoming remnant of the whole church which has been perfected to be Christ's counterpart. This is a big subject with a sparse definition here. If you object to any of these larger subjects which I have only spoken to in briefest terms, I will understand but be disappointed. If you will change the the first sentence too: Bride - That church which is perfected and prepared to Christ's satisfaction. I would agree with that short definition.
jaywill writes: City - Because bride is a collective it is also called a city. That is the church is a collective. That is many many people. So it is also called a city. The Bride is the Church. The Church is not a city you can find the church in a city. You can also find it in the country. In fact any place that is designated to meet. When two or three are gathered together a church exists. A city is a physical structure.
jaywill writes: Somewhere in the Gospel of Mark it says that the whole city went out to see Jesus. It means the PEOPLE went out to see Him. Matthew writes: Matt 8:34 And, behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought [him] that he would depart out of their coasts. The Greek word translated the whole means each individual so yes it would mean the people of the city.
jaywill writes: Foundation - As I used it for Revelation 21 and 22 I mean the underlying supporting reality of the city New Jerusalem. This is symbolic in Revelation. We are told that Christ is the foundation of the church. We are also told that the church is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. Gates - As I used it a refered to the symbol, the sign signfying man's entrance into the New Jerusalem. The gates speak of the entering into God's eternal purpose through Christ and Christ's work in God's economy. My problem is that I take everything to be literal. As far as I am concerned there is nothing symbolic. I would like to comment on: "We are also told that the church is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets" I can not find that text anywhere. I can find:
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I assume this is what you base your statement on. But the church is not built on Peter. It was built upon Peters answer to the question Jesus asked.
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Jesus said upon this rock I will build my church Peters answer was "Thou art the Christ the Son of the living God." That is what the church is built on. Paul said it this way.
1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Christ is the foundation.
jaywill writes: Often the person suspicious in this way is so because he himself has such a fertile imagination. As face answers to face in water, so the mind of a man reflects the man. You can rest assured that I have a huge fertile imagination. But when I am examining text I am not allowed to use my imagination. If God says it I have to believe it. I have no choice.
jaywill writes: Let us just say, he who can receive it, receives it. These types you talk about is simply peoples thoughts on certain subjects. Now why will you accept types, symbols and thoughts of other men and then refuse to accept what is written in black and white?
jaywill writes: It has to do with the building of Adam's wife as a type of the building up of the church for Christ. That is no explanation. That is just asserting what you believe.
jaywill writes: "Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her ... That He might present the church to Himself glorious, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she would be holy and without blemish" It has to do with Ephesians 5:22-33. It has to do with the second man Christ, being presented with a corperate body of sons of God made to match Him. He died not only for you and I as individual sinners. Much more He died for the church - "Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her" . Chapter 2 is a window into the eternal purpose of God to obtain a Wife for the God-man Jesus Christ. She is also His Body. The parallels are rich and hard to not notice. Haven't you sung the classic hymn The Church's One Foundation? Nothing goes to heaven except what came out of heaven. The church is out of Christ and contains Christ. She will be saturated with Christ and permeated with Christ. She will eventually MATCH Christ. And He also can say "This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of My flesh" Eve brought to Adam to marry Adam to be Adam's counterpart
Talk about a fertile imagination. Or are you just repeating something someone else said?
jaywill writes: Man was made not created in Genesis 2. He multiplied and his wife was the mother of [all] living. Both are refered to many times in the Bible. But they were not the real modern humanity. The real modern humanity was created not formed in Genesis 1 in the image of God. But for some strange reason they did not have souls because souls were not mentioned in Genesis 1:26,27. It is strange to me that you do not regard this as someone standing up and saying "Look at me everybody. I can say something original!" You do not see a lot of imagination in that ? If there is it was Moses imagination. He is the one who recorded:
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. These scriptures do not come out of my imagination.
jaywill writes: I bet I can find more commentators who would agree that chapter two is a window of Christ and the church in some form if not in all details as I have written. I can find a Bible that does not even contain chapter 2 in it so what. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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