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Author Topic:   Intelligent Design == Human Design?
tesla
Member (Idle past 1624 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 173 of 196 (563648)
06-06-2010 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Percy
06-04-2010 9:13 AM


Re: ID
It was a documentary on channel 8. they stacked alot of books on the advocate for ID who had made a comment that nothing was written about blah blah forget what but it was something about irreducible complexity. which i think is a bad argument because ID would end at the first energy, not at the first "spark" of life.
So i guess someone slipped a camera somewhere. its been years ago. its kinda irrelevant tho. the Dover trial was a failure.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Percy, posted 06-04-2010 9:13 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Coyote, posted 06-06-2010 10:33 AM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1624 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 174 of 196 (563649)
06-06-2010 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Huntard
06-04-2010 9:12 AM


Re: Laymen
quote:
*points upwards* There you go.
LMAO "apparently infinite" does not mean it is.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Huntard, posted 06-04-2010 9:12 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Huntard, posted 06-06-2010 10:47 AM tesla has seen this message but not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1624 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 176 of 196 (563652)
06-06-2010 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by cavediver
06-04-2010 9:12 AM


Re: topic
quote:
Again, you know so little of what you are talking that you cannot make sense. It depends what you mean by "singularity". The singularity of the Big Bang cosmological solutions of General Relativity exists as an artifact of the model, and we know a great deal about it. In reality, there is almost certainly no singularity. What is not understood is what replaces the singularity. To even begin to understand the issue you need to understand what is being replaced.
Your stretching. All the math is going to be too tentative to be reliable without an observation to back it up. i replied to this message once.
Your replacing one theory in favor of what? another theory with little base? educate me.
"almost certainly" is as good as "we are gonna make another guess because the math doesn't make sense to us"
I get that though. that's good. but T=0 is still inevitable and it still shows a singularity. fudge factors are not resolutions.
What DOES the math tell you if you input an edge to the universe and an area of energy outside that edge? where then does all the energy go when it closes in on T=0?
This is the question, and its derived from the observation of the true dynamics of a vacuum. such as:
Take a tank twice the size of a water tower, shaped like the universe as we can define it.
Fill it half full with say..Boron. Now induce a vacuum until the boron is just shy of boiling.
With enough mass, the top should have zero surface weight, and the bottom of the tank would still hold weight. This dynamic of the vacuum is only possible because the edges of the tank support the vacuum and hold the surface of the boron.
This is the only way i can rationalize a vacuum in space. Its a pertinent question because its large scale and not small scale vacuum. Just like evidence of expansion was not clear until we observed universes.
So I'm not pushing my evidence its clear, I'm pushing that it should not be ignored, yet rather, explored.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by cavediver, posted 06-04-2010 9:12 AM cavediver has not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1624 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 178 of 196 (563655)
06-06-2010 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by Coyote
06-06-2010 10:33 AM


Re: ID
quote:
The Dover trial was a success. It determined ID is religion
LOL Well we know how science goes. New information comes in all the time. Time will tell.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Coyote, posted 06-06-2010 10:33 AM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Coyote, posted 06-06-2010 10:46 AM tesla has seen this message but not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1624 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 183 of 196 (563800)
06-06-2010 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Percy
06-06-2010 12:13 PM


Re: Laymen
quote:
So what we're debating here is whose position is supported by the available evidence. In the case of space, the evidence we have indicates it does not have an edge. What evidence are you looking at that tells you space does have an edge?
current evidence is speculation. Unless you examine the vacuum itself.
The vacuum is indicative of an edge.
Reason: if you fill a tank twice the size of a water tower with a metal with a low melting point (ie: aluminum or boron or something else) and suck out all the air until the metal almost reaches boiling, the top of the element would behave with a surface tension like water. and the element would stretch from the top and retain weight on the bottom of the tank.
The vacuum holds the top of the liquid at 0 pressure, whilst as you deepen so does the pressure. in this way, the vacuum supports the surface from collapse, via the edges of the tank.
The math for this dynamic is speculative with my current abilities with math, however, i believe this dynamic to follow observation and provable. But only on a large scale. i could be wrong but i do not believe this dynamic to prove itself on a small scale such us under 100 gallons or maybe more. i could be wrong. but I'm showing the evidence to those who have the mathematical ability now, instead of waiting for my own mathematics to improve. However, if you all choose to disagree with the theories Ive introduced, or the evidence being the vacuum itself and expansion within borders; Well that's fine too. I'll eventually find the answers I'm looking for.
However, for scientists to take theories that are built on top of theory, with need be only ONE misconception to throw off years and years of research and math, and to teach it as if it has no flaw, when its widely accepted superbly tentative on what can be said of singularities or the big bang singularity, It is an outrage and foolishness to not accept new evidence or fresh eyes. You can agree to disagree or agree to ignore, but they cannot call themselves an expert on something NO one has understood. Not without pure foolishness.
Expansion, evolution, and a vacuum indicate a universe inside of a body that it expanded within and from. and evolution shows a singularity is eventual regardless of evolutions because the start was pre evolved. and therefore singular. by this logic: that as long as two things are in an evolved state, before that is a relevant question.
To further demonstrate my proposal the proof would be in the actual utilization of perpetual motion, which is motion within an enclosed system because of an imbalance's attempt to correct itself, with no chance at success.
lets take the earlier proposal of how the double sized water tower full of boron would behave if a line was attached at a specific thickness; to the bottom of that tank where pressure was, to the side of the tank above the vacuum line. have the line closed off and full of the element in the tank, then open the bottom, and then the top valve. if the fluid began to circulate without allowing the top pressure to fall beyond the spring level, the liquid acting as a spring would allow motion that could not correct. again, this is only possible at large volumes IF its possible at all. But who has a true answer? either the experiment must be run, or the math available to find out. So..it CAN be proven that space has an edge if the dynamic that allows the planets to move perpetually in space can be mimicked on earth.
It just hasn't been proven YET.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Percy, posted 06-06-2010 12:13 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by lyx2no, posted 06-06-2010 11:41 PM tesla has replied
 Message 185 by Percy, posted 06-07-2010 9:46 AM tesla has replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1624 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 186 of 196 (564043)
06-07-2010 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Percy
06-07-2010 9:46 AM


Re: Laymen
Ok. This has been a helpful debate. so what i guess is the dynamic of a vacuum is that it can only get as empty as empty is, but never is truly empty, and negative pressure is only negative from the perspective of pressure.
correct?
If true, this will give me some new ideas to entertain.
What is the greatest vacuum pressure possible in a tank of 800 gallons, and with what element and at what volume of the element? this to me is a good question.
i guess if constructed properly the dynamic of the tank compressing would add to the equation somehow.
Edited by tesla, : understood.
Edited by tesla, : understanding some.
Edited by tesla, : No reason given.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Percy, posted 06-07-2010 9:46 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by DrJones*, posted 06-07-2010 11:33 PM tesla has seen this message but not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1624 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 187 of 196 (564045)
06-07-2010 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by lyx2no
06-06-2010 11:41 PM


laymen
quote:
The pressure at the bottom of the tank is cuased by the weight of the column of liquid boron above it. The tube extending from the bottom of the tank to the top of the tank contains a column of boron equal in hight to the column of boron in the tank. There would be no net pressure to either to fill the tube farther or to drain the tube. Liquids find their own level.
liquids DO find there own level. water food coloring and a tube make great levels.
I'm introducing a vacuum to the top side of a large body of water. the top would stretch first not the entire volume correct?
you would have to be able to introduce a powerful enough vacuum for the amount of water. but water would boil before it would have enough of a vacuum to stretch a large body. but what element would? any? by your reckoning?
i will accept i will have to further study for the dynamic I'm trying to understand. so your saying that when you pump out the air of an area you never reach an absolute vacuum, yet you will have a pull of lbs per square inch at a sustained level until it is refreshed.
But is there an element that would stretch in a liquid form under such a vacuum?
lastly..i still cannot see any vacuum that can exist without an edge or border. space is a lame example. you cannot see its edges if any exist they are beyond our vision.
Edited by tesla, : elaboration based on greater understanding.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by lyx2no, posted 06-06-2010 11:41 PM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by lyx2no, posted 06-08-2010 12:52 AM tesla has replied
 Message 190 by AZPaul3, posted 06-08-2010 12:39 PM tesla has seen this message but not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1624 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 192 of 196 (564198)
06-08-2010 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Drosophilla
06-08-2010 6:35 PM


Re: Analagy for expansion......
i am not against cavediver or son of goku or anyone. its an overlooked obvios. To assume something is beyond your knoledge capabilities is just a psychological hamper on anyone's given talents.
Lets just say, we know not now, perhaps one day we can, what does it say now, and lets examine the facts first.
The actual data and the facts i do rely on are laws of science and observations that have remained true after constant observation.
Lets take your example from the balloon and dots. the dots should rationalize area for expansion, and that it is energy, since no area is ever absent of energy. what it looks like, who knows? but the inevitable center and the outer edge do not have to be something you can hit or even see..we know they are there. that's all. the center might boggle there mind But they can see it coming from inside of something more logical.
That is, IF these dots are observing the rest of their environment.
Here is my universal analogy: You take a man, and a woman, and they mate. A sperm moves into an egg inside of the female body. That sperm then grows within the egg. it is expanding within an area, and it came from the area that it is expanding in. it then grows inside of that area..expanding..from the benefits of the energy of the woman that feeds it to grow.
It sounds crazy, but it happens everyday. and with the data available to me, our universe seems to fit that analogy best. something cannot expand inside of nothing, and neither can it come from nothing. the body we are expanding in, is the same energy that the universe came from.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Drosophilla, posted 06-08-2010 6:35 PM Drosophilla has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by DrJones*, posted 06-08-2010 11:07 PM tesla has seen this message but not replied

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 1624 days)
Posts: 1199
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 194 of 196 (564203)
06-08-2010 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by lyx2no
06-08-2010 12:52 AM


Re: laymen
quote:
Why would space/vacuum requiring an edge signify a need for an intelligence?
My belief in what expansion and evolution have shown coupled with general observations that matter and life are co-existent: i see the universe as a part of a living thing.
Read what i said in the post above for an analogy, but it does fit the observations of expansion, life and matter, and change from a start.
I Have never claimed any education but self education. and what i have stood for or failed in ignorance has been growth not defeat.
The evidence still supports my observation and belief of the dynamic, but i still have to learn and understand enough to prove it.
I do shoot quotes of things Ive heard. but for the most part the language is mine. I am as i am. like me, hate me, help me, ignore me. I'm like Popeye the sailor man. i am what i am and that's all i am.
The questions are important to me because i will continue to believe in a purpose for mankind. that we are not some biological dead soulless existence. And i cannot ignore the evidence of our universe. it is a humbling observation to see what we see of it.
space and its edge and the area its expanding in being also the start, and t=0 being inevitable, and evolution being true, Intelligence is the only explanation for a singularity to evolve with nothing to interact with but itself. so proof of the edge is further proof of the dynamic that leads to the law of existence.

keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by lyx2no, posted 06-08-2010 12:52 AM lyx2no has not replied

  
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