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Author Topic:   That boat don't float
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1429 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 301 of 453 (563781)
06-06-2010 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by greentwiga
05-29-2010 1:18 AM


Re: anchor stones away ...
Hi greentwiga,
Scroll down and see the huge communal meeting hall made totally out of reeds. Also note the carvings denoting ancient reed shrines.
I did. I also googled "iraqi marsh arab reed mosques" and found this site:
http://www.baghdadmuseum.org/posters/c58336_p10.html
with these photos:
quote:
Reed Houses, Photograph Taken in 1982, Shobaish, Marshes, Iraq, Middle East
Reed Houses and Boat, Marshes, Iraq, Middle East
Mudhif (Meeting House), Photograph Taken in 1982, Shobaish, Marshes, Iraq, Middle East
Suk-Esh-Shiukh Village, Marshes, Iraq, Middle East
Marsh Arab Village, Iraq, Middle East
What I do NOT see in any of this, is whether these structures are built on islands, floating or just resting on the bottom. Marsh is not ocean, it has bottom relatively close to the surface, so it is possible to pile stuff up without it having to float.
Several of those pictures look like there is dirt around the structures
Building reed houses on land does not make an ark. There is a joke about a king that put his stone throne in his attic, and it fell through the floor killing him ... the moral is that people that live in grass houses shouldn't stow thrones ....
None of these structures show a second floor.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : ...
Edited by RAZD, : end

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by greentwiga, posted 05-29-2010 1:18 AM greentwiga has replied

Replies to this message:
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dennis780
Member (Idle past 4800 days)
Posts: 288
From: Alberta
Joined: 05-11-2010


Message 302 of 453 (564014)
06-07-2010 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by Granny Magda
06-06-2010 6:15 PM


Re: anchor stones away ...
"There never was any global flood. There was never a deluge and therefore no need for an ark"
if you think you are the first one to blurt this out without looking at the layers of the earth, you aren't. There should be a topic for this is in a thread somewhere, yes? However I have always found it amusing that evolutionists refuse to believe that the earth was never flooded, even though over 90% of it's surface is water, but mars was flooded, with only 10%. Some estimates go as high as 50, but still do not even come close to earth.
If you want to discuss if the layers of the earth are signs of a flood, or millions of year time periods, I'm game. One look at the polonium halos in the granite in the precambrian layer will tell you it is not 250+ years old, and could not have taken millions of years to form.
I didn't mention the ark, because it is the subject, not evidence for. This is like saying my truck is brown, compared to my truck.
"You would still have to show evidence that it actually existed if you wanted to make the story believable."
Sure. My first question is however, why would the bible go into detail about the dementions, and materials of a boat that did not exist?
But you are right we are here for facts. The bible claims that the boat came to rest in the mountains of Ararat. And it just so happens there is a boat covered in snow, in the middle of land, at the base of Mount Ararat. The ark? Possibly. Let's see what else the bible says. Noah sent out a dove every morning, until it returned with an olive branch. Olive trees grow by mount Agri in the same area. The bible also makes the claim that after the flood Noah planted a vineyard, and locals to this day have vineyards there. As well, the surrounding cities and landmarks are named after Noah, Sehr-I Nuh (city of Noah), Sefinet Nebi Nuh( the ship of Noah) the name of the summit of Mount Judi. It all sounds very funny to compare Noah with Santa, but it is not reasonable. And like I said, I am a reasonable man.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1429 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 303 of 453 (564023)
06-07-2010 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by dennis780
06-07-2010 7:14 PM


... and more PRATTs
Hi dennis780,
quotes are easy
type [qs]quotes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:
quotes are easy
or type [quote]quotes are easy[/quote] and it becomes:
quote:
quotes are easy
if you think you are the first one to blurt this out without looking at the layers of the earth, you aren't. There should be a topic for this is in a thread somewhere, yes? However I have always found it amusing that evolutionists refuse to believe that the earth was never flooded, even though over 90% of it's surface is water, but mars was flooded, with only 10%. Some estimates go as high as 50, but still do not even come close to earth.
If you think you are the first creationist to blurt this out, you are sadly mistaken. The problem is not that there is evidence of various bits of land being underwater at some time in the past but that:
  • there is no consistent age for all such deposits
  • there are layers of underwater ecology deposition that sandwich layers of land ecology deposition
  • ALL sedimentary layers showing underwater ecology deposition show that the life involved lived there for decades (if not thousands of years), not just a couple hundred days - much too old to have occurred during a short term flood.
  • geology explains these multiple long lived deposits, a flood does not.
If you want to discuss if the layers of the earth are signs of a flood, or millions of year time periods, I'm game.
See Seashells on tops of mountains. or we can ask for Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits - Evidence of a flood? to be reopened.
One look at the polonium halos in the granite in the precambrian layer will tell you it is not 250+ years old, and could not have taken millions of years to form.
Another underinformed polonium aficionado ... and unfortunately (for you) this information you have is invalid: polonium is a product of uranium decay, and the immediate predecessor in the decay chain is radon gas, which can, does, and has permeated the various rocks (not granite btw) where these halos are found. In every case where polonium halos are found you will also find uranium halos, evidence of a very old earth.
See polonium halos (particularly Message 265 and the posts leading up to it), and Are Uranium Halos the best evidence of (a) an old earth AND (b) constant physics?.
Sure. My first question is however, why would the bible go into detail about the dementions, and materials of a boat that did not exist?
Why not? Perhaps the authors were demented enough to think gullible people will fall for it more readily if they put in some numbers that sound big.
And it just so happens there is a boat covered in snow, in the middle of land, at the base of Mount Ararat. The ark? Possibly.
Or just another bogus claim that is unsubstantiated by real evidence.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : dayz
Edited by RAZD, : affective

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 304 of 453 (564025)
06-07-2010 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by dennis780
06-07-2010 7:14 PM


Re: anchor stones away ...
Hi Dennis,
if you think you are the first one to blurt this out without looking at the layers of the earth, you aren't.
No, I don't think that. Mostly because I have looked at the "layers of the earth". You know what I find when I go looking for fossils in that earth? I find fossils that support the scientific consensus on evolution and the age of the Earth. What I never find is any fossil that falsifies them. In fact, no-one has. I wonder why?
However I have always found it amusing that evolutionists refuse to believe that the earth was never flooded, even though over 90% of it's surface is water
And I find it amusing that you think that. The Earth's surface is not 90% water. It's about 71-80%.
If you want to discuss if the layers of the earth are signs of a flood, or millions of year time periods, I'm game. One look at the polonium halos in the granite in the precambrian layer will tell you it is not 250+ years old, and could not have taken millions of years to form.
Polonium halos aren't really my subject, but you might like to take such arguments to polonium halos, where they would be on-topic (although the thread has been inactive a little while).
The short answer is that the polonium causing the halos is the decay product of radon gas contaminating the rocks.
I didn't mention the ark, because it is the subject, not evidence for.
Well okay, you're right there. This thread is all about the plausibility of the ark, so I suppose that I shouldn't badger you over the small matter of there being no evidence for its ever having existed. I mean, why let a little thing like that get in the way.
why would the bible go into detail about the dementions, and materials of a boat that did not exist?
Perhaps because the authors thought that it did exist. Perhaps they considered the story's moral and theological lessons more important. The flood story serves many purposes as a sacred narrative. It teaches us that sin is bad and that piety is good. It reminds us to obey God. It reminds us of how terrible God's anger can be, but then establishes his new covenant with man. It emphasises the line Jewish patriarchs, thus bolstering their claim as the chosen people. It clarifies man's relationship with the animal kingdom.
With so much going on, it seems likely that the authors had a number of motivations for writing as they did. Given that there were at least three authors (including the redactor, who cut-and-pasted the two versions together), there would have been a number of theological ideas in play. It seems to me though, that the theological and metaphorical aspects of the story are the important bits - not the details.
Why detail the dimensions of the boat if the story was metaphorical? I suppose it was to underline that this was aa massive boat, bigger than any boat known at the time. The idea of the ark being the superlative boat is all part of the symbolism of the story.
But you are right we are here for facts. The bible claims that the boat came to rest in the mountains of Ararat. And it just so happens there is a boat covered in snow, in the middle of land, at the base of Mount Ararat. The ark? Possibly.
Possibly not. I think you'll find that it's just a big, vaguely boat-shaped rock.
Possibly. Let's see what else the bible says. Noah sent out a dove every morning, until it returned with an olive branch. Olive trees grow by mount Agri in the same area. The bible also makes the claim that after the flood Noah planted a vineyard, and locals to this day have vineyards there.
You are stretching. There are olives and vines all over the fertile crescent, there have been for millennia. You could make this observation about any number of places.
As well, the surrounding cities and landmarks are named after Noah, Sehr-I Nuh (city of Noah), Sefinet Nebi Nuh( the ship of Noah) the name of the summit of Mount Judi.
In Northern Ireland, they have the Giant's Causeway. I guess there really must have been a giant, right? The existence of names that reference the myth only prove the popularity of the myth. They don't support the idea that any of it really happened.
Just out of interest, do you have any evidence that these names are really used? I find a lot of comments along the lines of "It is believed that the settlement {of Sirnak} was originally called "Sehr-i Nuh" (the city of Noah) since it was near Cudi Mountain where Noah's Ark finally landed ..." (wiki). It is believed. By who exactly?
It all sounds very funny to compare Noah with Santa, but it is not reasonable. And like I said, I am a reasonable man.
You are very reasonable I agree. But I am not going to humour you by pretending to respect a story so ludicrous. The idea of cramming all the world's animals into a single boat is absurd and childish. It is absolutely comparable to the idea that a fat man crams all those Christmas presents into his flying sleigh. The main difference as far as I can see is that Santa gives all the kiddies nice presents, whilst God just drown them all.
Mutate and Survive
Edited by Granny Magda, : Typo.

"A curious aspect of the theory of evolution is that everybody thinks he understands it." - Jacques Monod

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9163
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 305 of 453 (564031)
06-07-2010 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by dennis780
06-07-2010 7:14 PM


Of course no evidence.
And it just so happens there is a boat covered in snow, in the middle of land, at the base of Mount Ararat.
And your evidence for this is??
Olive trees grow by mount Agri in the same area.
Olive trees also grow in Spain. Your point here is what again?
Ok I don't have the patience to deal with the other stupidity here, but since there are cities in the midwest of the USA called Minneapolis and Indianapolis that means the ancient Greeks settled there correct?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

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killinghurts
Member (Idle past 5017 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 306 of 453 (564033)
06-07-2010 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by dennis780
06-07-2010 7:14 PM


Re: anchor stones away ...
"dennis790" writes:
I have always found it amusing that evolutionists refuse to believe that the earth was never flooded,
Don't you mean evolutionists refuse to believe the earth was flooded?
"dennis780" writes:
even though over 90% of it's surface is water, but mars was flooded, with only 10%. Some estimates go as high as 50, but still do not even come close to earth.
So you've made the absolute conclusion that the earth was completely flooded (at one specified point in history) simply because it currently has a lot of water?
Let's take that argument and run with it shall we?
Venus has a 96.5% C02 atmosphere. Using your logic, we can now come to the conclusion that it MUST have had a 100% coverage of carbon dioxide. Further more, using your theory, you must be able to predict exactly when in the history of the universe this occurred. Can you please tell me when it occurred?
"dennis780" writes:
One look at the polonium halos in the granite in the precambrian layer will tell you it is not 250+ years old, and could not have taken millions of years to form.
I'll let someone who knows more about polonium halos answer this one.
"dennis780" writes:
My first question is however, why would the bible go into detail about the dementions, and materials of a boat that did not exist?
The bible goes into many things that do not currently exist. Like walking on water, parting seas with a stick, magically creating the earth, magically turning water into wine. A magical boat really doesn't take much more effort now does it?
"dennis780" writes:
The bible claims that the boat came to rest in the mountains of Ararat. And it just so happens there is a boat covered in snow, in the middle of land, at the base of Mount Ararat. The ark? Possibly.
Source please. You make the claim there is a boat there, you must have irrefutable evidence to back it up right?
"dennis780 writes:
Let's see what else the bible says. Noah sent out a dove every morning, until it returned with an olive branch. Olive trees grow by mount Agri in the same area.
Let's see what the "Santa Save the Day" Santa Clause book says:
Santa clause every year flies from the north pole all over the world. There is snow in the area of the north pole.
"dennis780" writes:
The bible also makes the claim that after the flood Noah planted a vineyard, and locals to this day have vineyards there.
Santa leaves presents under the tree, and on Christmas day, I have presents under the tree.
"dennis780" writes:
As well, the surrounding cities and landmarks are named after Noah, Sehr-I Nuh (city of Noah), Sefinet Nebi Nuh( the ship of Noah) the name of the summit of Mount Judi.
In Kyrgyzstan, a mountain peak was named after Santa Claus, after a Swedish company had suggested the location be a more efficient starting place for present-delivering journeys all over the world.
"dennis780" writes:
It all sounds very funny to compare Noah with Santa, but it is not reasonable. And like I said, I am a reasonable man.
No it isn't funny at all. This is what most of us teach our children. It's very sad indeed.

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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9163
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 307 of 453 (564034)
06-07-2010 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by RAZD
06-07-2010 8:11 PM


Non-topic sniping
Non-topic sniping hidden and subtitle changed.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Guess.

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4213 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 308 of 453 (564057)
06-08-2010 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by dennis780
06-07-2010 7:14 PM


Re: anchor stones away ...
Sure. My first question is however, why would the bible go into detail about the dementions, and materials of a boat that did not exist?
The same as other mythology, the imagination of the storyteller.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22486
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 309 of 453 (564092)
06-08-2010 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by dennis780
06-07-2010 7:14 PM


Re: anchor stones away ...
dennis780 writes:
And it just so happens there is a boat covered in snow, in the middle of land, at the base of Mount Ararat. The ark? Possibly.
Is it a multi-deck reed boat? If so then you want to let Greentwiga know right away, because he's looking for one.
--Percy

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greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3451 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 310 of 453 (564122)
06-08-2010 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 301 by RAZD
06-06-2010 7:55 PM


Re: anchor stones away ...
They are floating islands. See Heyerdahl's Tigris book. The people add more reeds on top when the island sinks too low, usually once a year. This is a side point. My main point for referring to the pictures was to show that Noah could have built large structures on his boat. The site I referred to showed ancient carvings of reed houses. the shapes looked identical to the ones in the pictures. Interestingly enough, In the Sumerian version of the flood story, the hero is told to tear down the reed hut and build a reed ship. One can see the ribs inside the buildings in some pix. They are just the same shape as used to build reed ships.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by RAZD, posted 06-06-2010 7:55 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by RAZD, posted 06-08-2010 10:14 PM greentwiga has replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2286
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 311 of 453 (564141)
06-08-2010 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by dennis780
06-07-2010 7:14 PM


Re: anchor stones away ...
At the Base of Mount Ararat? Maybe you should inform all those ark searchers that they don't have to actually try to climb the mountain

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1429 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 312 of 453 (564195)
06-08-2010 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by greentwiga
06-08-2010 11:25 AM


izatso?
Hi greentwiga,
They are floating islands.
Reed buildings do not mean that the islands are floating. Several of the pictures look like there is dirt around and inside the structures, and that does not match with your assertion that ...
... The people add more reeds on top when the island sinks too low, usually once a year.
How do the doors and windows magically raise up with the new floor?
These could be floating, maybe:
quote:
Reed Houses and Boat, Marshes, Iraq, Middle East
Marsh Arab Village, Iraq, Middle East
As they are surrounded by reads and water and not much else,
These are highly unlikely to be floating:
quote:
Suk-Esh-Shiukh Village, Marshes, Iraq, Middle East
Mudhif (Meeting House), Photograph Taken in 1982, Shobaish, Marshes, Iraq, Middle East
Because it looks like dirt and there are non-swamp trees growing around these structures.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by greentwiga, posted 06-08-2010 11:25 AM greentwiga has replied

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greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3451 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 313 of 453 (564212)
06-09-2010 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 312 by RAZD
06-08-2010 10:14 PM


Re: izatso?
Have you read the Heyerdahl book I mentioned? He clearly describes them as floating houses from his extended stays in them. I am not home, or I would list the pages.
I laughed when one mentioned me in connection with Mt Ararat. I had a boss who went on an expedition to find the Ark at Ararat. He was a serious scientist and was disgusted with the Christians by the end of the trip. I am convinced that the Ark is long decayed and even the tar reused for other purposes. Further, I argue that the Ark landed on a proto-ziggurat down in the region of Sumer, nowhere near Turkey.

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ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 4534 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 314 of 453 (564291)
06-09-2010 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by greentwiga
06-09-2010 1:24 AM


Re: izatso?
The Ra II, the reed boat Thor Heyerdahl used to cross the Atlantic, was also 12 meters long and was only at sea for 2 months. Here she is:
Figuring a cubit to be about half a meter, that would make your 150 meter Ark about 12 times longer than the Ra II. It would also make your Ark nearly 2000 times more massive (mass depending on volume, and volume increasing by the cube of the increase in length, I believe).* I'll let lyx2no do the actual displacement calculations.
Regardless, just because a 12 meter reed boat was seaworthy for a couple of months**, that doesn't mean that a reed boat with 2000 times the mass could last for a year, even assuming that you could build such a thing. Floating a 1 oz. boat made of newspaper down a creek doesn't make me believe that I could take a paper boat the size of a battleship across the Atlantic.
That boat don't float.
*I'm fudging a little bit here, as the Ra II had different proportions than the supposed Ark would have, tapering at bow and stern. Given that the Ark is described as pretty much box-like, it would actually be even more massive than a scaled-up Ra II
**I didn't take the time to go back and see how long the Ra II lasted after the trip. So sue me.

I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon
What's the difference between a conspiracy theorist and a new puppy? The puppy eventually grows up and quits whining.
-Steven Dutch

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 825 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 315 of 453 (564308)
06-09-2010 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by greentwiga
06-09-2010 1:24 AM


Re: izatso?
I addressed this already (dare I say, demolished the argument?). Perhaps you should keep up with the thread, eh?

"A still more glorious dawn awaits
Not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise
A morning filled with 400 billion suns
The rising of the milky way"
-Carl Sagan

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