Did Jesus betray Judas?

But that's his choice, and it is that choice that makes this concept of god so monstrous and dispicable.Or is it not his choice...?

Perhaps if he prevented them from having children, yes. But he did not prevent them from fulfilling their original mandate to 'fill the earth' with offspring. So unfortunately, the death that became a part of their genetic makeup was passed onto us.And God did not put Judas through anything. Judas chose his own path just as Adam and Eve chose their own path....we have free will and God does not interfere with it. He could have made us like robots or like the animals who are goverened by instinct...but he made us to be like himself with the ability to reason and make our own choices. What we need to understand is that the laws that God has set as the standard for all intelligent creatures, he himself also abides by. So yes he could have bypassed his own laws on equal compensation, but that would have made him a hypocrit which he is not.The mosaic law stipulated that if one person took a life, then he must surrender his own life in order to pay for the life lost. In the case of Adams sin, he could only make the payment for himself. So there was no other way to save mankind unless God provided another life to compensate for the one Adam lost.This is why he sent his son. He sent Jesus to be that compensation on behalf of all of Adams offspring. This is in complete harmony with his laws on equal compensation....hand for hand, tooth for tooth, life for life.Judas wasnt 'engineered' to betray Jesus. In fact, even if Judas had not had betrayed him, Jesus would have still been put to death because the religious leaders had already determined that they would kill Jesus before Judas betrayed him. The betrayal was prophecied to happen just as many other aspects of Jesus death were prophecied. Judas wasnt the cause of Jesus death...he simply fulfilled one of the prophecies surrounding Jesus death. its not that simple. Humans are a physical species and those physical traits are passed on from one to the other. After Adam had sinned and been convicted of death, that became a part of his genetic makeup....death was introduced to his physical body. This is why his children inherited the same trait because the rules of genetics is inbuilt. It can only be removed by God because God placed it there....but he will only remove it if he has the legal right to remove it. Again, no. Jesus had to die in order to pay the debt that we inherited from the first man. His debt was death...which became our debt due to inheriting the trait from him. The only way God could remedy the situation was to legally provide someone who could pay the debt for us.If no one ever paid the debt for us, then we will continue to die and we will never be reunited with God. True, God could have killed Adam and Eve and Satan right back in the garden of Eden. He could have created a new human couple but he chose not to for good reason.The problem of our sin was not just between us and God. There are myriads of holy angels who witnessed these events in eden, they heard Satans contradiction of Gods law and they heard his accusation against mankind.So Gods way of dealing with the situation has been to allow Satan time to try and prove his claims. This has allowed ALL observers to determine if Gods way of ruling and his laws are righteous or not. Jesus was able to prove that a perfect man could remain loyal under all circumstances and the disasterous rule of mankind over the past 6,000 odd years has shown that we cannot successfully rule ourselves. This is the perfect answer to Satans claim and God has been proved himself and his rulership righteous and wise beyond all doubt. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Peg, Yahweh did not need to tinker with their genetics to give them death. Peg, if Yahweh had not decided to define sin as 'the act of being human' none of any of this sacrifice and betrayal and engineering a situation where poor Judas would follow the character Yahweh gave him would have been necessary.I repeat, there is no reason for Jesus make his sacrifice apart from Yahweh deciding he had to. If Yahweh had decided that all humanity did not need to suffer, they would not suffer.Yahweh make all the rules and can break any he chooses. He chose to have his son crucified when it was within his omnipotent power to select another less bloodthirsty option. If Yahweh could only admit he made a mistake, none of this suffering would have been required. Rubbish! When Adam died the price was paid. No further torment was required until Yahweh mandated that it was required because that's what he wanted to happen. If Judas' part in this whole mess was not required, why did Jesus say it would have been better he had not been born? This implies his actions were of most high import. If he was merely fulfilling a prophecy it is hardly something he can be blamed for, can it? Peg, for the last time YAHWEH COULD HAVE SUBJECTED ADAM TO DEATH WITHOUT TINKER WITH GENETICS! I'M SORRY TO SHOUT BUT YOU NEVER SEEM TO ACKNOWLEDGE THIS POINT!The rest of your post is intriguing but I fear the wrath of Moose to much to go into it: but I'd be more than happy to discuss it in another thread, if you're interested.

Who is the "us" in this paragraph ?You have every right to claim Judas as you hero and appreciate in some strange way that he died for you.But if we enter into "Bible Study" I can find nothing to confirm this kind of adoration of Judas.Can you point me to a passage teaching that Judas laid down his life for anyone ?I see Paul speaking about his gospel being of "the unsearchable riches of Christ". Where are the epistles exploring the endless benefits of Judas ?Is it from anything written in the Bible that you derive this concept that the real center of virtue is Judas Isacariot ?

i think you are not taking into consideration the fact that they were not created with death as a normal process of their life.They were made to live forever which means that their bodies were genetically capable of doing so....it would have been a necessary part of their makeup in order to live forever. Whatever gene is responsible for death, Adam and Eve surely did not have it when they were created.

the real implication of what Jesus meant by 'It would have been better for him if he had not been born' has nothing to do with eternal torment because that teaching is not a biblical one.The answer lies in what Jesus said about people who deliberately and willfully sin against Gods holy spirit. All sins are forgivable except a deliberate sin against the workings of Gods holy spirit according to Jesus words at Matt 12:31 If you read the account in Matthew, you'll see that he said this after he had been accused of healing a demon possessed man by means of Satans power. Basically he was being accused of working for Satan, not God.
So the people who were accusing him of this were actually working against Gods holy spirit because it was by Gods holy spirit that Jesus could perform the miracles.This is why Jesus words about Judas are understood to mean that he would not be forgiven for betraying the Son of God because he was actually working against Gods holy spirit by doing so. The punishment for this sin is eternal 'death'. No chance of a resurrection, no hope of living forever...just death.And what led Judas to his actions was the culmination of a course of hypocrisy and dishonesty. He had been a thief, robbing the treasury that had been entrusted to his care and when he saw Mary anointing Jesus with very expensive perfume, Judas complained about wasting it. Jesus did not buy into it and Jesus silenced him. Then out of selfish spite, Judas went to the rulers and bargained to betray Jesus for thirty pieces of silver. Later he killed himself because he was also a coward who would rather die then answer for his error...he may have felt some regret but he certainly wasnt sorry for what he had. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Eternal torment is biblical.
And I agree ( on this point only ) with Chimp. It would have been better for Judas had he never been born.Have we debated this before ?

Hi Peg,A quick question. Why do all water, land, creatures, and fowl die?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Larni, For himself yes.But this sin of disobedience condemned the entire universe.There was no sin in the universe until the man who was formed from the dust of the ground ate the fruit he was commanded not to eat. So by the sin of that man death entered the universe. I agree there was no tinkering with Genetics.Modern man is not a descendant of that man. He is a descendant of the man created in the image/likeness of God in Genesis 1:27. Jesus could have said that to all who do not believe in Him for eternal life as all those will spend eternity in the lake of fire.John tells us that Jesus talking to His followers said: Everyone was not believers. Judas happened to be one of those.You keep blaming God for Judas actions but that is a false accusation. God nor Jesus had anything to do with the decision that Judas made, or the actions he took.So no Jesus did not betray Judas. Judas has listened to Jesus for 3 1/2 years, saw many miracles even the resurrection of Lazarus and had not been convinced to the point he trusted Christ for salvation.And yes Judas did lead the mob to where Jesus was in the Garden.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

i dont recall a thread specificially about eternal torment.

simple answer, they were not created in Gods image.God is an eternal being therefore the man and woman whom he created in his image would also have to be eternal. And we can see the prospect of eternal life was given to the man and woman because God told them not to eat from the tree of good and bad as the results would be death Gen 2:17 "for in the day you eat from it you will positively die." Logically, if they had not eaten from it they would not have died....otherwise how could this be any sort of punishment. If they were always going to die, then this punishment was not really a punishment at all.He created the animals and none of them are eternal, although some outlive humans by a long shot, but we can understand this difference because none of them were said to be made in Gods image or in his likeness. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

I would say it his choice.But, what makes that dispicable? Dispicable would be if God just sat back and never gave us a way out, but he has given us that out.....so even a sinful human being will be able to enter into His presence and avoid eternal damnation.

No Peg.Even un-divine me can think of ways to introduce death into an undying sysytem.You could use a slow acting poison, you could even re write then dna of all cell apart from sperm and egg cells. Yahweh (in his infinite power) had a myriad of options.But the one he chose would condemn every human from then on to eternal torment unless they jump through a specific hoop.This is going well off topic so I'm starting another thread.

Better for all not to decide all people should pay for one persons crime.

And so it is God's choice that there is a concept of sin, his choice that he hates sin, his choice that he cannot abide sin in his presence, his choice that eternal damnation is the consequence of sin, his choice that this sin will be inheritable to the entire human race from his first two created beings, his choice that there is a deceiving spirit/snake abroad in the garden, his choice that Eve should encounter this deception in a position of extreme innocence...And the only excuse that all of this is not utterly dispicable is that he sent Jesus as a way around this??? I'm sorry, it just does not wash. The vast majority of human souls are being damned in hell FOR ETERNITY and it all comes down to God's choice. And as a final insult, he tries to claim that it is actually our choice, as all we have to do is believe in Jesus and he will make it all go away...Sorry Flyer, the only way I managed to believe this shit for so long was by assuming that God had to have had much less choice than generally believed. Otherwise, he's just an abomination.