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Author Topic:   The Exodus: 'A Dead Issue.'
PaulK
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Posts: 18061
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 5 of 24 (36628)
04-09-2003 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
04-09-2003 7:56 AM


Lets start with a couple of points that probably need to be considered.
Even back near the end of the 19th Century it was realised that the numbers of people in the Exodus were somewhat implausible. Apparently the word translated as "thousand" can also be used to mean "tent" and is used in this form as a count for numbers of people. The numbers, I think are still uncomfortably high but obviously it is far less of a problem and if the conquest account in Joshua was not thoroughly dead already it could possibly be saved by assuming that the Canaanites were weaker than Joshua suggests (which is more in accord with the archaeology anyway)
Secondly, the highland settlements. There is one feature that links the third wave of highand settlement discussed in _The Bible Unearthed_ with Israel. In the third wave - unlike the previous waves or neighbouring cultures - there is no sign of pigs.
On to my view of Exodus.
The current account seems to be based on legends old at the time of writing - I would say redaction, but I beleive that there was considerable editing and that the version we have is in may ways a work of religious and nationalistic (or even racist) propaganda.
One of the more puzzling parts of Exodus is 4:24-6 for which the only plausible explanation I can imagine is that it is an old legend so well known that the writiers could not leave it out. I can see no other reason for including it at all - especially as it makes little sense where it is (why not put it earlier - say around the end of Exodus 2 ?)
We know from the archaeological evidence that there is no sign of an external force invading Canaan at the time which best fits the Exodus. On the other hand the Moses story probably has some basis in historical fact (even if it is obscured by the development of the legend and the purposeful reworking that produced the text that we have). We also know that the Amarna letters show Canaan as a land of petty kings, squabbling among themselves while protesting their loyalty to Egypt and blaming the others. Perhaps the original version referred not to a bondage In Egypt but Egyptian dominance over the region - speculative, to be sure but in accord with the evidence. Perhaps the curent version was reworked during the Babylonian captivity, and reflects that situation or perhaps the fate of Israel inspired it - because I find the evidence of seventh century authorship persuasive, and that demands that the original text preceded the captivity.
And who was the original "Moses" ? It is hard to say, of course, but the story (and name) suggests an Egyptian renegade - perhaps one who joined the Apiru and claimed credit for all the troubles Egypt had in the area. Perhaps - and I speculate again - the stories in Numbers of God killing Israelites who did not recognise Moses' authority reflect the actions of the ruthless original. But then there is no solid bsis for anything more than speculation. Whatever Moses did he became a hero of some sort, then a legend, and lastly the Yahweh cult claimed the legend as their own. Whatever lies beneath that it seems, is lost to use, because archaeology offers nothing from that time - whenever it was - that we can link with the story we have now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 04-09-2003 7:56 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Brian, posted 04-12-2003 9:09 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 18061
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 7 of 24 (36832)
04-12-2003 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Brian
04-12-2003 9:09 AM


As I at least hinted at in my post I don't beleive that Israel represented a new population that came from outside Canaan. It is important, however, that the third wave of the hill settlements has evidence conntecting it to the emergence of Israel as a distinct grouping.
I agree with your critiicsms of Bright, and I would argue that the proposal put forward in _The Bible Unearthed_ is rather more plausible. Moses may well be a legend appropriated by the real founders - and it is hardly unknown for religions to claim false histories for themselves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Brian, posted 04-12-2003 9:09 AM Brian has replied

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 Message 8 by Brian, posted 04-13-2003 1:46 PM PaulK has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 18061
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 18 of 24 (56219)
09-18-2003 4:46 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Percy
09-17-2003 6:01 PM


Essentially the point is that Jester wants to claim that there is a lot of new evidence behind this lawsuit.
http://EvC Forum: Endogenous Retroviral Insertions Demonstrate Evolution Beyond a Reasonable Doubt -->EvC Forum: Endogenous Retroviral Insertions Demonstrate Evolution Beyond a Reasonable Doubt
quote:
He fails to mention that the research I speak of is so recent that it made CNN and MSNBC within the past two weeks, and he won't mention it or acknowledge it becasue it weakens his case.He then states..."Archaeologists are no longer even contemplating a biblical Exodus group either, or an enslavement of the Hebrews, or a desert wandering, and it is even highly unlikely that there was ever a united monarchy.".....totally disregarding the recent evidence supplied to the
International Court in the Hague, by the Egyptian government, as the basis for a lawsuit. They, the Egyptians, presented documented copied of scrolls, with detailed accounts of the gold and properities the Jews took when they left Egypt The basis of the lawsuit is they are demanding this gold and properties back. The exodus of the Jews has some documentation, or it would not have made it up to the International Court, as the are laws of evidence and procedure to follow to get there, I presented this to Winace, but his dismissal was " Anyone could file a lawsuit", showing a complete lack of understanding on how the International Court works and accepts cases, but it was put on disregard as it doesnt fit his theory , the same as Brian, here. This story was also carried on CNN.
Note that his original sources were supposedly CBS and MSNBC - American news sources from the "impoverished media" that supposedly doesn't carry the story he attributed to them.
Note that he was responding to Brian who simply commented on the current views of the archaeologists working in the region - this is supposed to be major NEW evidence (if that were the case it would merit far more attention than this plan to file a lawsuit has gotten)
Add to the fact that NONE of the sources he DID provide mention that a lawsuit has even been filed, none states that there is any source of significant evidence other than the Torah (which is clearly stated to be the basis of the case), none even states which court might hear such a case - and the International Court is not hearing this case nor is it pending.
My best guess is that Jester jumped to completely erroneous conclusions based on misreading some source - probably CBS or MSNBC (although neither seems to carry a full story) and everything since has been a desperate attempt to avoid admitting that he was wrong. We certainly have no reason to believe that any of the sources he has claimed support him in fact do so - since he has implicitly or explicitly misrepresented every source that has been checked we certainly cannot trust him on those claims which cannot be checked.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Percy, posted 09-17-2003 6:01 PM Percy has not replied

  
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