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Author Topic:   The Truth About Evolution and Religion
Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3405 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 275 of 419 (561454)
05-20-2010 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by dkroemer
05-20-2010 3:58 PM


Re: of cards and comedians
"Considered thermodynamically, the problem of neo-Darwinism is the production of order by random events." (Ludwig von Bertalanffy, Chance or Law, in Beyond Reductionism: New Perspectives in the Life Sciences, The Macmillan Company, 1969, page 76)
What is it with creationists and quotations? Are they trying to borrow other peoples credibility or something? They must know that we are aware of their penchant for quote mining. How can they imagine that tossing quotations about lends them any authority?
If they want to use the ideas involved in their quotes, they must still show that the quoted notions are valid.
In any case, this quotation omits to mention the role of selection, which is not random, and so is irrelevant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by dkroemer, posted 05-20-2010 3:58 PM dkroemer has replied

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 Message 280 by dkroemer, posted 05-20-2010 11:37 PM Woodsy has not replied

  
Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3405 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 288 of 419 (561532)
05-21-2010 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by dkroemer
05-20-2010 11:46 PM


Re: Amazingly, evolution STILL explains the diversity of life including complexity
We don't doubt that complexity evolved. The question is what were the processes? It stands to reason there were processes, but the process could not be natural selection. The U. Mich lessons say nothing unscientific. But the Berkeley lesson says natural selection explains the complexity of life. Likewise Gerhart and Kirsner and Kenneth Miller do not say natural selection explains the complexity of life, but Richard Dawkins does.
Who cares what someone says in some book you have managed to dig up? What counts is what is.
In any case, you are ignoring the ratcheting effect of natural selection. The important point is that helpful variations are sometimes retained. Sometimes these useful variations are more complex, sometimes not. Once retained, complexity can be increased by further rounds of the same effect.
What is so hard about all this? It's a very simple algorithm that anyone should be able to grasp easily. It does not even need to instantiated in biological systems but can happen in other contexts, such as , for example, computer programs or cultural artifacts. Anytime variation is coupled with selection, evolution happens.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by dkroemer, posted 05-20-2010 11:46 PM dkroemer has replied

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 Message 295 by dkroemer, posted 05-21-2010 7:49 AM Woodsy has not replied

  
Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3405 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 297 of 419 (561542)
05-21-2010 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by dkroemer
05-21-2010 7:16 AM


Re: Amazingly, evolution STILL explains the diversity of life including complexity
It was understood from the very beginning that natural selection could not explain the evolution of something as complex as the human eye.
This is not true. Even Darwin showed how it could be done.
With the discovery of the structure of proteins and DNA it was possible to quantify the complexity of life by caculating the probability of a protein evolving by random chance. A very crude calculation is one in 20600. I pick the number 600 because that is the number of letters in a sonnet. I mention sonnets because the number of letters in the alphabet is about equal to the number of amino acids.
No one is claiming that these molecules occurred by random chance. Your calculation is irrelevant.
Your position is a political one, not a scientific one. Your goal is to promote ignorance and superstition. It is amazing that you are not embarrassed by your blatant falsehoods.

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 Message 290 by dkroemer, posted 05-21-2010 7:16 AM dkroemer has not replied

  
Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3405 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 377 of 419 (562018)
05-25-2010 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 365 by Coyote
05-24-2010 9:55 PM


Re: Quote mining
And why is it that so many are deliberate attempts, on someone's part, to deceive the reader?
Maybe it is that, instead of promoting moral behaviour as religious types so loudly and persistently claim, religion actually impairs morality.
We do constantly see supporting examples of that in these forums.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by Coyote, posted 05-24-2010 9:55 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3405 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


(1)
Message 385 of 419 (562047)
05-25-2010 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 380 by dkroemer
05-25-2010 9:36 AM


Re: misunderstanding or misrepresentation?
So you admit that the theory of evolution has limited abilities to explain living organisms.
No such admission was made.
If you try really, really hard, you might be able to post something truthful. That would be a refreshing change!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by dkroemer, posted 05-25-2010 9:36 AM dkroemer has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 386 by dkroemer, posted 05-25-2010 12:15 PM Woodsy has replied

  
Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3405 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 390 of 419 (562063)
05-25-2010 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 386 by dkroemer
05-25-2010 12:15 PM


Re: misunderstanding or misrepresentation?
There seems to be some confusion about terminology. I'v been reading about evolution since 1970s and have had book reviews published about evolution. I must admit, however, that I have only a layman's understanding of evolution. The research that is currently being done is beyond me, so I can only tell you what I mean by the words:
I thought you could post something accurate if you really tried.
Unfortunately, a good deal of your post is incorrect, disingenuous, or trivial. Please see Huntard's post for details.
I am puzzled that you see fit to make authoritative-sounding pronouncements about things that you yourself admit that you understand only to a limited extent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 386 by dkroemer, posted 05-25-2010 12:15 PM dkroemer has not replied

  
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