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Author Topic:   Is faith the answer to cognitive dissonance?
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4671 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 132 of 227 (558357)
04-30-2010 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Phage0070
04-30-2010 5:42 PM


Re: Duct Tape = ??
We know that those reactions are what we call "life".
Life is more than the reactions that compose it. It is the ordered succession of these reactions, it is with the order and directions given to these reactions by biological molecules, which are themselves produced by directed reactions.
This is quite easy to see. Take all the biological molecules that compose a living cell, and drop them all in a drop of water. All the reactions that happen inside a living cell will also happen there, yet you won't have life because it will all be random, and also because there will be just as much unwanted reactions.
Nothing about those reactions are impossible. You are asserting that the *path* to those reactions is impossible in the natural world, but you cannot point at any particular part of that path that is insurmountable.
This is where you go wrong, there are specific points along the path that are by themselves unsurmontable. The problem of chirality, for example, is one of them.
In turn science has not yet shown a clear path either, only a series of dots that might be connected. The issue is that you are drawing a dichotomy without making that dichotomy exhaustive; you don't know the path *at all*, and yet you are blithely declaring it to be impossible.
No, I'm saying that if we cannot see any path, and that after years of searching there are still no path, even worse the problem has only gotten bigger, then I only suggest that perhaps there is no path.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Phage0070, posted 04-30-2010 5:42 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Phage0070, posted 04-30-2010 7:11 PM slevesque has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4671 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 135 of 227 (558379)
04-30-2010 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Phage0070
04-30-2010 7:11 PM


Re: Duct Tape = ??
Right, it is an emergent property. But the point is the same; the reactions are all possible.
... And so the reactions being possible does not mean naturalistic abiogenesis is possible.
This procedure of yours looks like fallacy of composition to me.
Some bacteria use right-handed amino acids too.
Wouldn't supernatural creation be more likely to result in 50-50 distribution of chirality rather than mostly all the same as though *gasp* they developed from a common ancestor?
You'll have to explain more of this, if all of life had 50-50 distribution of chirality, does it not have the same effect then all left-handed (in regards to common ancestry)
Besides, it isn't like there is no explanation; the weak nuclear force, responsible for beta decay, produces only electrons with left-handed spin. Chemicals exposed to these electrons are more likely to form left-handed crystals, and so... left-handed amino acids.
link to published paper ?
I couldn't ask for a better summation of an argument from ignorance.
I think me suggesting there are no paths is a far cry from affirming it to be true As in needed for it to be an argument from ignorance). This is logically consistent because I make an inductive usage to suggest this, not deductively proving it. From wiki:
However, in some cases (such as that which the noted author Irving Copi describes above) where affirmative evidence could reasonably be expected to be found, but following careful unbiased examination, this evidence has still not been found, then it might become expedient, and sometimes even prudent, to infer that this might suggest (though it does not prove, deductively, it suggests inductively) that the evidence does not exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Phage0070, posted 04-30-2010 7:11 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Phage0070, posted 05-01-2010 2:24 AM slevesque has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4671 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 141 of 227 (558613)
05-03-2010 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Phage0070
05-01-2010 2:24 AM


Re: Duct Tape = ??
Only if I were making a logical argument.
What other options do you have ?? An illogical argument ?
My point is that you don't show a block in the path, not that the path is necessarily unbroken.
Bad phrase structure prevents me from understanding I think
Then it appears our difference of opinion stems again from your acceptance of the plausibility of supernatural happenings over naturalistic processes that are currently poorly documented in your view. This is again beyond the scope of this thread.
Yes the topic was that faith was the answer to cognitive dissonance. Stile, in response to my opinion on this, chose an example which we could discuss. The purpose was showing cognitive dissonance. I introduced a simple argument about abiogenesis that could maybe show cognitive dissonance in the atheistic worldview. In fact, it was this very argument that convinced Anthony Flew (maybe the Dawkins of the 70's) to become a Theist.
But here is the fact, there is only really cognitive dissonance from my point of view, because I think the world around us shows evidence of God. Therefore, from my POV, holding an atheistic philosophy in spite of this evidence seems like cognitive dissonance.
This is essentially the process that is behind the OP of claiming faith is the answer to the cognitive dissonance of christians. Yet, this is only from his point of view. This is because evidence does not speak for itself. Claiming so is a logical fallcy. Evidence is interpreted in a framework, and most of the times the same piece of evidence can be explained in multiple sometimes very different frameworks. This then gives the illusion of cognitive dissonance from the respective point of views, when really there is none.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Phage0070, posted 05-01-2010 2:24 AM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Phage0070, posted 05-03-2010 3:30 AM slevesque has not replied
 Message 143 by Straggler, posted 05-03-2010 10:31 AM slevesque has not replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4671 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 144 of 227 (558661)
05-03-2010 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Straggler
05-01-2010 6:09 AM


Re: Cognitive Dissonance Repaired with Duct Tape
Whoah there! This atheist would cite the fact that humanity has a long and undistinguished record of invoking the supernatural to explain nature and that so far we have a 100% record of failure. This atheist would point out that the suprenatural hypothesis has failed spectacularly and that all of the evidence available strongly indicates that gods are created by humans to fill our need for explanation and meaning.
This atheist would point out that the only reason for continuing with the supernatural hypothesis as an explanation for observed phenomenon (e.g. the existence of life) is human conviction that the supernatural must have some role in things somewhere. Which tells us far more about human psychology than it does a genuine role for the supernatural.
But this is only a subjective view of the evidence by an atheist.
A theist is a theist because he thinks the evidence points to that conclusion. This is a subjective intepretation of the evidence, and it would be illegitimate for him to conclude that the atheists refusal to face the evidence and continue in his naturalistic worldview reveals much more about human psychology.
Ah so you are essentially a proponent of a god of the gaps then.
Of course not, God of the Gaps is based on what we do not know.
The argument I presented is based on the knowledge of what we do know. The premise 'naturalistic abiogenesis is impossible' is supported by chemistry and so on.
On the other hand, a God of the Gaps argument about the classic example of Lightning is very different. Such an argument would have to contain a premise somewhat like 'lightning cannot have a natural cause'. But such a premise, at the time it was done, had no supporting fact for the simple reason that they didn't even know what lightning even was. This is in stark contrast to life, which the more we know about it the more the original premise is confirmed.
Anthony Flew was a the most vocal atheist of his time, he knew very well what a god of the gaps was philosophically. He recognized the fundamental difference between that and the argument of abiogenesis impossibility very well, this is why it was able to convince him.
Edited by slevesque, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Straggler, posted 05-01-2010 6:09 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Straggler, posted 05-03-2010 5:41 PM slevesque has not replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4671 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 145 of 227 (558665)
05-03-2010 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Phage0070
05-03-2010 3:30 AM


Re: Duct Tape = ??
A rejection of *your* argument. You claim that naturalistic abiogenesis is impossible, and I point out that you have not met the burden of proof for that assertion. I need not create a logical argument proving the assertion that naturalistic creation is possible in order to reject your assertion.
If you cannot get from point A to point B, then there must be something along the way that prevents such a thing from occurring. You claim getting from A to B materialistically is impossible, and I point out that you have not shown any step from A to B to *actually* be materialistically impossible.
Because it is not the point of the subject. I say I think such an impossible step does exist. I think it is pretty obvious that I would hold my position if this was not the case.
It may be that neither of us actually know all the steps between A and B, but your summary elimination of the possibility as support for your supernatural alternative is unwarranted.
Summary elimination ? The results of more then 50 years of research into naturalistic abiogenesis (ever since Miller) show it is more then reasonable to inductively conclude that naturalistic abiogenesis is impossible. And once again, as I said, this conclusion is subjective to the everyone. But you cannot tag someone of having cognitive dissonance because he arrives at a different conclusion then you.
Then it isn't really faith that you are talking about. If faith is "being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see," (Hebrews 11:1) then what you have described is a normal logical conclusion based on your interpretation of the evidence. Faith would be confidence in that conclusion without the evidence you mentioned.
We can debate what evidence exists, what that evidence indicates, and the conclusions we should draw from that evidence, but none of that involves faith.
And we come back to the very first point I made in this thread: that this was a false conception of faith. THe very greek origin of the word points of belief based on evidence.
And not only that, but how can you expect to be 'certain' and 'sure' of something if the prerequirement is that you have absolutely no basis for this. You can't. And in fact the verse never talks about it having to be without evidential basis. In fact, this verse you cited, coupled with the greek origin of the word, gives a radically different view of faith then what you are wanting it to say.
Edited by slevesque, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Phage0070, posted 05-03-2010 3:30 AM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by cavediver, posted 05-03-2010 6:25 PM slevesque has replied
 Message 148 by Phage0070, posted 05-03-2010 7:14 PM slevesque has not replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4671 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 149 of 227 (558939)
05-05-2010 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by cavediver
05-03-2010 6:25 PM


Re: Duct Tape = ??
Woah - that's some huge confirmation bias at work just because we don't have the mechanism sorted for abiogenesis does not mean thart we are not massively further ahead than we were 50 years ago! Is quantum gravity also "impossible" because after well over 50 years of trying, we still don't have the answer?
It's not about the time involved, but what was actually discover. One year would have done the same thing, if all these discoveries would have been made in that span.
Imagine that in the research of quantum gravity, the more you researched through it, the bigger the problem grew. Even worse, the more it seemed to contradict other known and well-established theories. There would come a point where the idea would be abandoned.
I think this point has been reached in naturalistic abiogenesis. But because it is the crucial founding block of an atheist worldview, it put it in different position then a quantum physics theory. (That, coupled with the fact that mathematical physics theories will more easily be identified as contradictory for example)
To declare naturalistic abiogenesis as "impossible" suggests you have much to learn of science. To be taken seriously with such a comment you would have to have a thorough knowledge of the field, its arguments and propositions, and you would need robust counter-arguments against each, plus further arguments to suggest why no future research will yield solutions.
And if such a display of knowledge was presented to you, would you then become a theist ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by cavediver, posted 05-03-2010 6:25 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Straggler, posted 05-05-2010 6:01 PM slevesque has not replied
 Message 151 by cavediver, posted 05-05-2010 7:09 PM slevesque has not replied
 Message 152 by Stile, posted 05-06-2010 8:18 AM slevesque has replied
 Message 153 by Stile, posted 05-06-2010 8:23 AM slevesque has not replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4671 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 154 of 227 (559085)
05-06-2010 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Stile
05-06-2010 8:18 AM


Re: Cognitive Duct Tape
I think we finally arrive at the point I wanted it to come to. I will try and make a thread about the impossibility of naturalistic abiogenesis.
This may take some time though, as I want to make as much an airtight argument as possible, along the lines of what cavediver requested.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Stile, posted 05-06-2010 8:18 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
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