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Author Topic:   Are The Historical Respective Roles Of The Genders Relevant Today?
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1025 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 61 of 116 (557855)
04-28-2010 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Buzsaw
04-28-2010 8:49 AM


Re: Role Of Women Etc
She diligently does what mostly pertains to the household as her husband is out being the primary breadwinner.
Strangely enough, the passage you quoted only mentions household work once. The rest of the time it discusses a woman who appears to be sole proprietor of a small textile business, handling procurement, manufacturing and retail; somehow with time left over for philanthropy in the middle of all this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Buzsaw, posted 04-28-2010 8:49 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Buzsaw, posted 04-28-2010 10:10 AM caffeine has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 116 (557857)
04-28-2010 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Flyer75
04-26-2010 8:55 AM


Re: Changing Times
Flyer75 writes:
That being said, times have changed Buzz and there's probably no going back at this point. Women now make decent incomes and help pay the bills, the car payments, the vacations, ect. Certainly pros and cons to this. Lifestyles go up, nicer cars, nicer home, better vacations for the kids, ect.
Just my .02 cents. It is what it is, women work now and make good money doing so...that isn't going to change.
Hi Flyer. I appreciate your sensible and good-spirited input here at EvC. Yes, I agree that things won't change. Being a Biblical prophecy buff, imo, it will change when king Jesus's 2nd advent revolutionizes the planet for the good, albeit things will continue to worsen dramatically and rather suddenly in the transition.
Yes, families have lots more nice things but relatively not so nice children who are growing up to become an ever more apostate, violent and unhappy generation.
Flyer75 writes:
Edit: I'd like to add something I just thought of. A woman's (and man's) role in society is really determined by society/culture. The role of a woman in say Rwanda is certainly going to be different then the role of a woman in America. In Rwanda, families are still trying to survive in a "pioneer" lifestyle...i.e. the man goes out and is sole job is to provide food and clothing for him family and that's it...Plasma tvs and BMW's are of zero consequence to this family. In American, 99.9% of families are no longer trying to just "put food on the table". The big question in life now is, boy, I'd really like to go to Disney World, purchase that brand new Nissan, and that 65" LCD would look great in the basement. Even in America, this aspect has changed dramatically since my dad was a boy in the 40's and 50's when he had to work the farm. Heck, my grandfather, now 90, had to drop out of school before high school to "work the farm". So of course my grandmother didn't work much...she raised the kids because money wasn't the issue....food and labor was.
Enjoy while it lasts, Flyer. As I understand the prophecies and observe, things are progressing into all nations descending into poverty, oppression as enforced distribution of wealth becomes enforced via global government etc. The American dream is on the fast track to the end of the track where the bridge is out and the chasm is deep.
I don't know how long you've been a police officer. Are you observing an increase in violence and unrest where ever you are?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 116 (557858)
04-28-2010 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by caffeine
04-28-2010 9:57 AM


Re: Role Of Women Etc
Caffeine, too much black coffee. Slow down and read thoughtfully. Her business was home based. Most of the things she did were relative to her family and home.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by caffeine, posted 04-28-2010 9:57 AM caffeine has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 64 of 116 (557868)
04-28-2010 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Buzsaw
04-28-2010 8:49 AM


Re: Role Of Women Etc
I apply the Biblical role of women,
Answer my question (that I have asked twice before): how many shekels did you pay for your wife?

"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan
"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Buzsaw, posted 04-28-2010 8:49 AM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 65 of 116 (557882)
04-28-2010 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Buzsaw
04-28-2010 8:49 AM


Re: Role Of Women Etc
I apply the Biblical role of women...
To stay young requires unceasing cultivation of the ability to unlearn old falsehoods.
Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love, 1973

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Buzsaw, posted 04-28-2010 8:49 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Buzsaw, posted 04-28-2010 11:34 PM Coyote has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 66 of 116 (557897)
04-28-2010 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Buzsaw
04-28-2010 8:49 AM


Re: Role Of Women Etc
She diligently does what mostly pertains to the household as her husband is out being the primary breadwinner.
You might want to read YOUR bible again, Buz.....
Proverbs 31 writes:
15She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
23Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
26She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
So she is smart AND provides the food. All her husband does is sit on his ass chit chatting with his buddies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Buzsaw, posted 04-28-2010 8:49 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 116 (557961)
04-28-2010 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Coyote
04-28-2010 12:25 PM


Re: Becoming Blessed, Wise & Mature
Coyote writes:
To stay young requires unceasing cultivation of the ability to unlearn old falsehoods.
Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love, 1973
To become blessed, wise and mature requires unceasing vigilance in conserving historical Biblical values. Buzsaw

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Coyote, posted 04-28-2010 12:25 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Coyote, posted 04-29-2010 12:50 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 69 by purpledawn, posted 04-29-2010 8:17 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 68 of 116 (557963)
04-29-2010 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Buzsaw
04-28-2010 11:34 PM


Re: Becoming Blessed, Wise & Mature
To become blessed, wise and mature requires unceasing vigilance in conserving historical Biblical values. Buzsaw
What size rod do you use to beat your slaves? And I presume they are fit to work again within prescribed time?
Sorry, but some of your "values" have gone by the wayside. If you were "wise and mature" enough to discard these false and outmoded "values" perhaps you could be "blessed" as well.
You are accepting "values" from the past without thinking about them, and without critically evaluating them -- just because they are values from the past. That's been shown to be a path that leads to uncritical acceptance of slavery and all manner of other nonsense.
You may not realize this, but you are making yourself, and your beliefs, into a joke. You are not persuading anyone here that your beliefs are worthy. Rather, you are doing the exact opposite.
As Heinlein wrote, "unlearn old falsehoods."

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Buzsaw, posted 04-28-2010 11:34 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 04-29-2010 7:45 PM Coyote has not replied
 Message 73 by Buzsaw, posted 04-29-2010 8:17 PM Coyote has replied
 Message 109 by IchiBan, posted 05-04-2010 12:25 AM Coyote has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 69 of 116 (557993)
04-29-2010 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Buzsaw
04-28-2010 11:34 PM


Biblical Values
quote:
To become blessed, wise and mature requires unceasing vigilance in conserving historical Biblical values.
Then bring the values forward. Leadership is not a value, it's a position.
Solomon can only describe the character of a noble wife in the terms of his time. The point was that she was wise, self-sufficient and enterprising. That is what we should bring forward from the Bible, not that she only dealt with family needs.
You have to remember the time it took to do things back then. Making meals from scratch, making clothes from scratch, etc. The Proverb does imply she added money to the family income. Just because they didn't have offices back then, doesn't negate the work. Also remember that bartering was a norm back then. So the eggs, baskets, cloth, wool, etc. were the same as money. So in essence she was making money.
If you want to bring the values forward, fine; but don't hang on to ancient laws and customs that are outdated. Just because you want you way in an impasse, doesn't mean women should become property again.
Why do you feel the Golden Rule doesn't apply to wives?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Buzsaw, posted 04-28-2010 11:34 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-29-2010 8:43 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 116 (557995)
04-29-2010 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by purpledawn
04-29-2010 8:17 AM


Re: Biblical Values
Solomon can only describe the character of a noble wife in the terms of his time. The point was that she was wise, self-sufficient and enterprising. That is what we should bring forward from the Bible, not that she only dealt with family needs.
Precisely, and perhaps there is no greater biblical illustration than Solomon's descriptions. Even then one could highlight the notable disparity between Solomon's version of what a good wife is and juxtapose it by his failings as a husband (all his concubines).
These terms like "biblical principles" just don't make any sense because of their contradictory nature. Buzsaw is misinformed on what "biblical principles" mean. In reality he is simply conflating American values he grew up with and saw as "wholesome" and is injecting a biblical spin on it.

"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by purpledawn, posted 04-29-2010 8:17 AM purpledawn has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by subbie, posted 04-29-2010 10:13 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 71 of 116 (558004)
04-29-2010 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Hyroglyphx
04-29-2010 8:43 AM


Re: Biblical Values
In reality he is simply conflating American values he grew up with and saw as "wholesome" and is injecting a biblical spin on it.
To be fair to Buz (I can't believe I just said that), isn't that all that anyone does? I'm quite convinced that people don't read the bible to learn from it. They read the bible to look for bits that confirm their preconceived ideas so they can pretend they ideas are biblically supported and inspired.
Buz can point to bits in the bible that support his wacky ideas and others can point to bits that support the opposite.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson
For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-29-2010 8:43 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3102 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 72 of 116 (558097)
04-29-2010 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Coyote
04-29-2010 12:50 AM


Re: Becoming Blessed, Wise & Mature
You may not realize this, but you are making yourself, and your beliefs, into a joke. You are not persuading anyone here that your beliefs are worthy. Rather, you are doing the exact opposite.
This is very true. Reading Buzz and other fundamentalist post's here at EvC for the past 2 years has made me even more cynical of the Christian religion than I was before. It is amazing they do not realizing they are defeating their own purposes on these boards by exposing their religion for what it is: morally incongruous and destitute.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Coyote, posted 04-29-2010 12:50 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 116 (558102)
04-29-2010 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Coyote
04-29-2010 12:50 AM


Re: Becoming Blessed, Wise & Mature
Coyote writes:
You are accepting "values" from the past without thinking about them, and without critically evaluating them -- just because they are values from the past. That's been shown to be a path that leads to uncritical acceptance of slavery and all manner of other nonsense.
Coyote, you and your friends consistently convolute my position, which that the Biblical role of the woman is to tend the house and children as the man is in the workplace, be it a fisherman, merchant in the markets, farmer, etc.
You and your friends, in your meanspirited manner, refuse to acknowledge that nearly all cultures practiced slavery and that Biblical principles relative to the slavery has been that slaves should be well treated and cared for, whereas other religions were often ruthless.
Owners were masters and workers who serve were servants as there was no ancient Hebrew word for employers, so whether one was hired or owned it was masters and servants.
As you people well know, nobody's advocating slavery or spinning from whole cloth. You just see it as a personal cheap shot.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Coyote, posted 04-29-2010 12:50 AM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Apothecus, posted 04-29-2010 8:48 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 75 by Coyote, posted 04-29-2010 9:17 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 76 by hooah212002, posted 04-29-2010 9:39 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 82 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-30-2010 10:05 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 83 by purpledawn, posted 04-30-2010 3:43 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2411 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 74 of 116 (558104)
04-29-2010 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Buzsaw
04-29-2010 8:17 PM


Re: Becoming Blessed, Wise & Mature
Hey Buz.
As you people well know, nobody's advocating slavery or spinning from whole cloth. You just see it as a personal cheap shot.
The shot would be cheap if we didn't have all of your own words to bludgeon (we are talking about the bible, after all) you with. You say here that no one's advocating slavery, but I'd assert that it's part and parcel with your desire to return to biblical morality as you stated to Flyer75.
Buz writes:
Yes, I agree that things [in the present] won't change. Being a Biblical prophecy buff, imo, it will change when king Jesus's 2nd advent revolutionizes the planet for the good, albeit things will continue to worsen dramatically and rather suddenly in the transition.
So heaven = the morality of biblical times. Woohoo! Since you're (I'm assuming ) a white male, how many 'o them darkies you gwinta have working your 8 hectares whilst Mrs. Buz cools her pies on your ethereal windowsill? 6000 years of "civilization" can't be wrong, correct?
I wonder if all the races who've been oppressed in all of history and who also just happen to have a ticket to heaven know what they're in for ...
In all seriousness, Buz, I'm sorry but I agree with Coyote as well. You really have no idea how much you're damaging your own faith when you post the things you do. Does it not matter to you?
Have a good one.

"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Buzsaw, posted 04-29-2010 8:17 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 75 of 116 (558110)
04-29-2010 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Buzsaw
04-29-2010 8:17 PM


Re: Becoming Blessed, Wise & Mature
Coyote, you and your friends consistently convolute my position, which that the Biblical role of the woman is to tend the house and children as the man is in the workplace, be it a fisherman, merchant in the markets, farmer, etc.
No, we agree with you. The biblical role was as you say.
What we are saying is that that position is not tenable today. It doesn't matter whether the bible says yea or nay, things have changed. Unfortunately you have continued to advocate a 3,000 year old position.
You and your friends, in your meanspirited manner, refuse to acknowledge that nearly all cultures practiced slavery and that Biblical principles relative to the slavery has been that slaves should be well treated and cared for, whereas other religions were often ruthless.
We know that too. What we are telling you is that all were wrong! It doesn't matter if the bible said it, in retrospect it is still wrong, and it does you no credit to adhere to that outmoded position.
On another board, a poster much as yourself told us that it was not wrong to own slaves. He was obviously basing his opinion on biblical lore. He was wrong, and anyone who holds his position is wrong. It may have been within custom and tradition 3,000 years ago, but we have advanced beyond that now. At least most of us have.
Owners were masters and workers who serve were servants as there was no ancient Hebrew word for employers, so whether one was hired or owned it was masters and servants.
That was the "tradition" 3,000 years ago. Now we know slavery is wrong. Advocating the biblical approach to slavery is also wrong. We have advanced beyond that; those who hold a strict biblical view have not.
As you people well know, nobody's advocating slavery or spinning from whole cloth. You just see it as a personal cheap shot.
But you advocate honoring "tradition" which includes ancient customs which have long since been discarded by civilized societies. And you apparently do so just because those customs are "approved" by the bible.
We are telling you some of those customs and traditions are outmoded crap and belong in the dustbin of history.
Just because they are in the bible doesn't change that in the least.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Buzsaw, posted 04-29-2010 8:17 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Buzsaw, posted 04-29-2010 10:18 PM Coyote has replied

  
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