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Author Topic:   Are The Historical Respective Roles Of The Genders Relevant Today?
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 31 of 116 (557575)
04-26-2010 9:52 PM


Life in Buzz's warped fairytale world:
Buzz maybe you should have married this bitch who advocates revoking woman sufferage:
I am done trying to talk common sense into Buzz. He is too stuborn and stuck in his ways to listen to reason.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Buzsaw, posted 04-27-2010 9:59 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 116 (557576)
04-26-2010 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by DevilsAdvocate
04-26-2010 9:33 PM


Re: Where we started
What the hell is a bathroom law?
I think he's talking about how it is illegal (or at least taboo) for the opposite sex to use the same bathroom.
The only platform that they have not been able to serve on are submarines and that is only because of the logistical nightmare and exorberant costs of redesigning subs to accomodate them.
There are two all-female subs now, but yes, it is a logistical nightmare. The Navy also precludes women from joining the SEAL program too (SWCC also, I think) but not EOD. I wouldn't be completely averse to it, but I think they have very real reasons why they preclude them.
The issue is that these are the exceptions to the rule. Buz apparently unilaterally wants women "back in their rightful place" without regard to anything other than antiquated tradition and his book of magic spells as his guide.
quote:
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected. -- G.K. Chesterton
I really don't see how the rest of you can rationally talk to this mother fucker.
Forgive him for he knows not what he says.

"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 04-26-2010 9:33 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 04-26-2010 10:06 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 33 of 116 (557577)
04-26-2010 10:05 PM


Buz, you say you are married, yes? How many sheckels did you give her father for her hand in marriage?

"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan
"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 34 of 116 (557578)
04-26-2010 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Hyroglyphx
04-26-2010 9:56 PM


Re: Where we started
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-26-2010 9:56 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Flyer75
Member (Idle past 2423 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 35 of 116 (557581)
04-26-2010 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Hyroglyphx
04-26-2010 12:54 PM


Re: Unintended consequences of the suffrage movement
Hyroglyphx writes:
I think that along with the huge benefits of the sufferage movement have also introduced some unintended consequences. For instance, that most Americans cannot do without dual incomes can directly be attributed to women working.
That being said, I wouldn't trade this pitfall in for an antiquated society that shackles their women to the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant.
I can agree with this. Listen, I may be a traditionalist deep down inside but I'm not going to lock my wife down and make her do dishes all night. Right now, we have an infant in the house and we live off my income alone. We do without some of the "luxuries" of life but by no means are we poor.
Funny thing about humans and nature though. I look around my work and we have more then a handful of employees married to other employees in the same job so they have a "double" income yet they struggle financially as much as anyone. We struggle on one income at times but no more so then those I work with that make double the income. This probably has nothing to do with the actual discussion but simply the fact that idiots spend what they make.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-26-2010 12:54 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Flyer75
Member (Idle past 2423 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 36 of 116 (557582)
04-26-2010 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Rahvin
04-26-2010 11:55 AM


Rahvin writes:
Prior to the women's liberation movement, very few women attended college or had any work experience. They were entirely dependent upon their husbands for their wellbeing. This meant that they had basically no choice in the matter - they were forced to stay married, even to abusive husbands.
Now, mroe women are attending college than men are. Employers are more willing to hire women than ever before. The rise in divorce rate seems to be more of a result of women now having the opportunity in addition to the legal ability to divorce.
Rahvin, I think we both pretty agree with this. That was my point. Women HAD to stay home in the past. It's still that way in certain cultures, but not that way here in America anymore.
That's why the stats show that divorce has gone up since the lib movement (and yes, that includes for fundys also, I'm on my second marriage but not for this reason....LOL). Women are better educated, have jobs that for the most part are as good as men's thus they can divorce and support themselves.
Is this good or bad is the question?? Probably more good then bad. Equality is certainly better then slavery.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Rahvin, posted 04-26-2010 11:55 AM Rahvin has not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 37 of 116 (557604)
04-27-2010 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Flyer75
04-26-2010 8:55 AM


Women in Rwanda and the myths of 'traditional' gender roles
Edit: I'd like to add something I just thought of. A woman's (and man's) role in society is really determined by society/culture. The role of a woman in say Rwanda is certainly going to be different then the role of a woman in America. In Rwanda, families are still trying to survive in a "pioneer" lifestyle...i.e. the man goes out and is sole job is to provide food and clothing for him family and that's it...Plasma tvs and BMW's are of zero consequence to this family. In American, 99.9% of families are no longer trying to just "put food on the table". The big question in life now is, boy, I'd really like to go to Disney World, purchase that brand new Nissan, and that 65" LCD would look great in the basement.
Is this actually how things are in Rwanda? A brief glance at the UN Data website reveals that. ten years ago (the most up-to-date statistics they have), a third of Rwandan women were employed in the formal, non-agricultural economy. When we consider that 90% of the labour force is employed in agriculture, this is a interesting figure, as it implies that there could well be more women employed in industry and services than men.
If we take total employment statistics for women, we can see that 80.5% were employed in 2007, down from a height of 86.2% in 1993. Note that the 2007 figures are slightly higher for women than for men, only 79% of whom had employment.
This may seem like nitpicking over a minor point, but I think it's important to note that our sweeping generalisations about what traditional gender roles are and how genders behave in different cultures aren't necessarily true. We can't just talk airiliy about 'the way things have been for all cultures for 6 millenia' as if 1950s America is the standard model of gender relations and household economics - it's not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Flyer75, posted 04-26-2010 8:55 AM Flyer75 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 04-27-2010 6:05 AM caffeine has not replied

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 38 of 116 (557609)
04-27-2010 5:54 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Buzsaw
04-26-2010 9:05 PM


Re: Where we started
For nearly 6 milleniums most cultures understood that families function better with one having the leadership role rather than two presiding ones with equal authority.
Most have been traditionally sensible enough to understand that the strong one who was responsible for the safety of the family would be the one suited for the leadership role.
Besides your erroneous calculation of the span of human development, how can you possibly equate male leadership with anything positive?
Within the last 100+ years we have seen life spans go up, infant mortality rates go down, technological development sky rocket...etc.
Why in the world would you think that anyone with half a brain would want to go back to a time when only men of a certain race are in charge? That was tried and tried and it failed with dreary colors. Have you not read any history books?
The traditions that you revere only brought misery upon much of the people of this world...and still does in many cases. Why do you want that to continue?

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London
"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Buzsaw, posted 04-26-2010 9:05 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(1)
Message 39 of 116 (557610)
04-27-2010 6:05 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by caffeine
04-27-2010 4:52 AM


Re: Women in Rwanda and the myths of 'traditional' gender roles
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by caffeine, posted 04-27-2010 4:52 AM caffeine has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 116 (557618)
04-27-2010 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Theodoric
04-26-2010 9:18 PM


Re: Where we started
Theodoric writes:
Discipline by physical intimidation is probably the worst way to discipline a child. Logic and love are much more effective ways to discipline and they also produce a much more productive and responsible adult than any physical form of discipline.
LOL, Theodoric. Logic and love is fine. I used it on my boys and their families who still honor and respect their mother and me. Interestingly, one of the reasons they honor, love and respect us is that when folks asked me how we made them behave so well as children, the answer was, we gave them no choice. There were times, especially when very young that some loving corporal punishment was needful in the mix of disciplinary measures.
As the Bible says, regarding God and us who believers in his son, Jesus, the christ/lord, "whom he loves he chastens." I spanked the boys a few times when very young. That was all it took to get their respect and attention that they had no choice but to obey for their own good, training and welfare.
My wife, who did a good job as well with them, usually threatened them with, "your dad will deal with this when he gets home." That was all that she needed to do. We both always had their love and respect for the way we dealt with them. The first thing my little boy would do if and when a spanking was needful, was to come back and buddy up to me, since they knew the discipline was deserved.
We still have the American Legion Boy's State framed certificates of our disciplined boys hanging on the wall in our living room. They now have excellent jobs, nice incomes and their own families, thanks to the logic/love/corporal punishment formula.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Theodoric, posted 04-26-2010 9:18 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Kitsune, posted 04-30-2010 3:19 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 116 (557619)
04-27-2010 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by DevilsAdvocate
04-26-2010 9:52 PM


Devil A. Man's Strawman Implication
Devil's Advocate man, contrary to the implication of your meanspirited display of garbauge, for the record, I've never, ever, in 55 years, laid anything but a loving hand on my wife and I don't mean disciplinary loving hand. Physical punishment was solely reserved for the children.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 04-26-2010 9:52 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 04-27-2010 10:43 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 56 by Hyroglyphx, posted 04-28-2010 7:01 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 116 (557620)
04-27-2010 10:06 AM


Buzsaw/Buzwife Partnership
For the record, my wife and I also have a partnership in which most decisions are discussed, often the wife's wishes trumping my own. There are, however times of impasse, when a divinely appointed presiding authority must break the impasse. This avoids much bickering, unrest and ultimate separation or divorce, wifey, also honoring Biblical principles, understanding her providential role in the family unit.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Straggler, posted 04-27-2010 10:58 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 116 (557622)
04-27-2010 10:22 AM


Another For The Record
Another Buz for the record is that at all elections my wife and I both make it a practice to vote. I have her totally indoctinated.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Son, posted 04-27-2010 12:18 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 49 by hooah212002, posted 04-27-2010 3:43 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 44 of 116 (557626)
04-27-2010 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Buzsaw
04-27-2010 9:59 AM


Re: Devil A. Man's Strawman Implication
Devil's Advocate man, contrary to the implication of your meanspirited display of garbauge, for the record, I've never, ever, in 55 years, laid anything but a loving hand on my wife and I don't mean disciplinary loving hand. Physical punishment was solely reserved for the children.
Mean spirited? I am not the one advocating inequality of race and sex. Whatever I say here is mild compared to the acts and deeds done in the name of religion and tradition.
You keep harping on the past, so I thought I would throw up legitement advertisements from the past, and many in your lifetime, that seem to epitomize your sexist worldview.
If you think me mean spirited, I really don't give a shit. What I do care is that people like you do not control the progress of this country towards racial and sexual equality.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan
"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Buzsaw, posted 04-27-2010 9:59 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 45 of 116 (557629)
04-27-2010 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Buzsaw
04-27-2010 10:06 AM


Re: Buzsaw/Buzwife Partnership
They now have excellent jobs, nice incomes and their own families, thanks to the logic/love/corporal punishment formula.
Well I had drug taking hippy pacifist free love parents. And aside from the odd psychotic episode, a history of social dysfunctionalism and a complete inability to tell right from wrong I turned out fine too. So I guess it is horses for courses.
For the record, my wife and I also have a partnership in which most decisions are discussed, often the wife's wishes trumping my own. There are, however times of impasse, when a divinely appointed presiding authority must break the impasse. This avoids much bickering, unrest and ultimate separation or divorce, wifey, also honoring Biblical principles, understanding her providential role in the family unit.
I am intrigued. Can you give a specific example of where "biblical principles" were the deciding factor in a dispute?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Buzsaw, posted 04-27-2010 10:06 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 04-27-2010 11:12 AM Straggler has not replied

  
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