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Author Topic:   Star formation
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 31 of 39 (556762)
04-21-2010 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by xavierkress
04-20-2010 11:53 PM


Re: What grounds does Bible claim God created them.
Is there evidence that any star we have seen in scientifically observed time of a star being created in the first place? Is it true that we've only seen stars die and not be created?
yes
Can we deny in any true evidence that God did not create everything and then once created set things into motion to act in it's own accord?
That's called god of the gaps mate. Can you deny that the FSM didn't do it? I think He did.
Look at man, he was created out of something from someone or thing and then started living and making his/her existence from his/her own accord.
Man was most definitely not "created" my friend.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan
"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by xavierkress, posted 04-20-2010 11:53 PM xavierkress has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by xavierkress, posted 04-21-2010 12:55 AM hooah212002 has replied

  
xavierkress
Junior Member (Idle past 5087 days)
Posts: 2
From: NC, USA
Joined: 04-20-2010


Message 32 of 39 (556768)
04-21-2010 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by hooah212002
04-21-2010 12:04 AM


Re: What grounds does Bible claim God created them.
Is there evidence that any star we have seen in scientifically observed time of a star being created in the first place? Is it true that we've only seen stars die and not be created?
quote:
yes
Explain a bit more of "yes" and to which question and what scientific observance are you speaking of? It's like asking me, "Can you prove that God exists and show me proof" and I just answer Yes, he does exist.
Can we deny in any true evidence that God did not create everything and then once created set things into motion to act in it's own accord?
quote:
That's called god of the gaps mate. Can you deny that the FSM didn't do it? I think He did.
Define FSM please as I haven't heard the acronym before. Just because God put things into motion doesn't mean He just sits there and doesn't do anything now. There are plenty of prophecies within the Bible that have come true and none so far that have proven to be false. Archeologists have gone out to disprove the Bible only to find they are unable and usually come back believers in the Bible.
Look at man, he was created out of something from someone or thing and then started living and making his/her existence from his/her own accord.
quote:
Man was most definitely not "created" my friend.
Must explain a bit more here. Isn't that what the primodial soup theory is about? out of this soup man formed after several generations of other forms were created until we arrived at this one? And what's the ratio of probabilities say of first two human's being developed at the same time of opposite sexes and perfectly developed to meet the needs of the other to reproduce?
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by xavierkress, : No reason given.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by hooah212002, posted 04-21-2010 12:04 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by cavediver, posted 04-21-2010 1:41 AM xavierkress has not replied
 Message 34 by Huntard, posted 04-21-2010 1:55 AM xavierkress has not replied
 Message 35 by hooah212002, posted 04-21-2010 2:35 AM xavierkress has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 33 of 39 (556769)
04-21-2010 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by xavierkress
04-21-2010 12:55 AM


Re: What grounds does Bible claim God created them.
There are plenty of prophecies within the Bible that have come true and none so far that have proven to be false. Archeologists have gone out to disprove the Bible only to find they are unable and usually come back believers in the Bible.
Actually, it was discovering that all of this is actually a lie that made me realise that after 20 years, my own Christian salvation was built upon pure falsehood and that is why I am now an atheist (of sorts.) But this is not for a thread on Star Formation. So please go to other threads to discuss prophecy, archaeology, the creation or otherwise of mankind, etc.
Isn't that what the primodial soup theory is about? out of this soup man formed after several generations of other forms were created until we arrived at this one?
It was a few more than several generations. A quick guestimate leads to me to suggest perhaps a trillion (10^12) generations...
And man as we recognise him formed at around a million generations ago - in other words, around one millionth of the generations that preceeded man.
Are you starting to appreciate the scale here?
And sexual reproduction developed hundreds of millions of years before man turned up, and would have been in creatures that can reproduce both asexually and sexually - just as we see creatures today with this ability - so there would have been zero problem with males and females having to magically appear together.
Need I say that this is all for a biological thread?
And so to star formation:
From the initial stages of stellar formation to the brith ofa new star, we are talking a period of time measured in hundreds of millions of years. So if your demand is for an observation of soups-to-nuts stellar birth, you are going to be laughed out of town. But of course we have observations of every stage of this process, as we have so many hundreds of thousands of stars being born to observe. And no, we do not just assume that the different stages run sequentially, and are not simply examples of a hundred thousand different objects. We have detailed and complex physical models of the process of stellar birth. These models make predictions about what we should see at different stages, and observations confirm these predictions. This is how evidence based science proceeds.
If you want detailed knowledge of our theories, models, predictions and observations of stellar birth, I suggest you start on an undergraduate astrophysics course - as you can probably now imagine, the subject is too vast and complex to discuss over a few posts on a discussion forum.
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Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by xavierkress, posted 04-21-2010 12:55 AM xavierkress has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 34 of 39 (556771)
04-21-2010 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by xavierkress
04-21-2010 12:55 AM


Re: What grounds does Bible claim God created them.
I see you've got a lot of thing wrong here, unfortunately thi sin't really the thread to talk about them (this one should be a bout star formation) I'll see if I can give you some answers, ut it would be best to take these individual things to the threads they belong to, or start new threads to discuss them.
xavierkress writes:
Can we deny in any true evidence that God did not create everything and then once created set things into motion to act in it's own accord?
No, but why should we consider something for which there is no evidence.
Define FSM please as I haven't heard the acronym before.
The Flying Spaghetti Monster, the deity that Hooah thinks is responsible for creating everything.
Just because God put things into motion doesn't mean He just sits there and doesn't do anything now.
Got any evidence of god working within his creation at this point in time?
There are plenty of prophecies within the Bible that have come true...
Actually, no there aren't. This is a lie often told by apologists. Sadly for them, it takes a lot of twisting of the prophecies to make them fit, and even then it's not convincing.
...and none so far that have proven to be false.
Actually, there are plenty. How about Jesus' prophecy that "not a generation shall pass" till the events he described would occur. There's been plenty of generations since then, it hasn't occurred yet. Or the prophecy about Tyre? Tyre is still there, you know.
Archeologists have gone out to disprove the Bible only to find they are unable...
Actually, there's absolutely no evidence that archaeologists have found for, say, the Exodus, or the flood. This has led them to conclude it idn't happen.
...and usually come back believers in the Bible.
Another one of those lies told by apologists. This is also simply not true.
Must explain a bit more here. Isn't that what the primodial soup theory is about? out of this soup man formed after several generations of other forms were created until we arrived at this one?
That's not what the bible says happened though, is it?
And what's the ratio of probabilities say of first two human's being developed at the same time of opposite sexes and perfectly developed to meet the needs of the other to reproduce?
This shows you know very little about biology/evolution. There's no sudden marker where what was born and called "homo sapiens" was so utterly different from it's mother/father that it couldn't reproduce with it's parent species anymore. Evolution is all about gradual change. Your kids can reproduce with other kids can't they? And so on for generation upon generation. But look back 100.000 generations, and your kids won't be able to reproduce with that generation. That's how speciation works. There are no sudden transitions.
A few tips: Use the "peek" button on the lower right side of this post to see how I made those neat quoteboxes.
And if you want to continue this discussion I suggest either proposing a new topic, or finding existing ones to talk about them. This topic should be about star formation and god's role in it. We like to keep things fairly on topic in this forum.
Oh, and welcome to EvC!
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by xavierkress, posted 04-21-2010 12:55 AM xavierkress has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 35 of 39 (556776)
04-21-2010 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by xavierkress
04-21-2010 12:55 AM


Re: What grounds does Bible claim God created them.
Explain a bit more of "yes" and to which question and what scientific observance are you speaking of?
Have you heard of google? Do you realize how many stellar nurseries there are? Sharpless 2-106 (Sh2-106), is one. NGC 2074 is another.
Can we deny in any true evidence that God did not create everything and then once created set things into motion to act in it's own accord?
Nope. however, it is up to you to provide evidence for this alleged "god" character. It is not for us to prove he couldn't have.
Define FSM please as I haven't heard the acronym before.
The One True Creator of All: The Flying Spaghetti Monster, His Noodley Holiness.
Just because God put things into motion doesn't mean He just sits there and doesn't do anything now.
There is, as of yet, no reason I should choose your god over the IPU. Or leprechauns. Or Flying pigs. For all we know, he IS just sitting there doing shit nothing because it has never shown it's face or made it's presence known.
There are plenty of prophecies within the Bible that have come true and none so far that have proven to be false.
I won't touch on that because we have other threads that are hundreds of pages long dedicated to it.
Look at man, he was created out of something from someone or thing and then started living and making his/her existence from his/her own accord.
Show me where man was "created". Don't use your bible.
Must explain a bit more here. Isn't that what the primodial soup theory is about? out of this soup man formed after several generations of other forms were created until we arrived at this one? And what's the ratio of probabilities say of first two human's being developed at the same time of opposite sexes and perfectly developed to meet the needs of the other to reproduce?
Ah yes: biblical creation has just as much chance to have happened as abiogenesis. I think some creationists around here will have a go with this one.
My contention with your "creation" statement was that you said MAN was created. I said he was not because we have plenty of evidence that says we evolved from other ape species. Abiogenesis could very well be "creation" for all I care.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan
"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by xavierkress, posted 04-21-2010 12:55 AM xavierkress has not replied

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 36 of 39 (556856)
04-21-2010 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by killinghurts
04-18-2010 11:20 PM


Topic Please
To All Participants!
This is the Faith and Belief forum, please respect the beliefs of others. Participants don't have to prove the principles of their belief. (i.e. prove that God exists, prove that the Bible is the word of God, etc.)
This thread is not about how science explains the formation of stars or whether the Bible has it right concerning stars.
The opening question is very simple:
If we can now explain the formation of stars without supernatural intervention, on what grounds does the bible claim god created them?
On what grounds does the Bible claim God created stars?
Grounds
2 a : a basis for belief, action, or argument (ground for complaint) often used in plural (sufficient grounds for divorce)
Please stop quibbling over belief statements that have nothing to do with the topic.
Please direct any comments concerning this Administrative msg to the Report discussion problems here: No.2 thread.
Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour suspension.
Thank you Purple
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Signature

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by killinghurts, posted 04-18-2010 11:20 PM killinghurts has not replied

  
killinghurts
Member (Idle past 4993 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 37 of 39 (556958)
04-21-2010 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Huntard
04-20-2010 7:45 AM


"Huntard" writes:
You have glimpsed god's abilities from reality? Do tell how you did this, I'm sure a lot of theologians are intersted in this.
You have completely misunderstood my statement. Please go back and read it carefully.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Huntard, posted 04-20-2010 7:45 AM Huntard has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 38 of 39 (556979)
04-22-2010 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by killinghurts
04-18-2010 11:20 PM


If we can now explain the formation of stars without supernatural intervention, on what grounds does the bible claim god created them?
I will attempt to draw on my christian indoctrination as a youth and give this a serious reply. I will play God's advocate (see, atheists can be funny too).
Has God ever answered your prayers? If yes, were those answers the product of what could be considered natural occurences? If yes, then what's the BFD? From my time in christianity (the first 22 years of my life) all testimonies tended to center around very natural occurrences. A sign here, a person talking to them there. It would seem to me that the actions of God occur through nature more often than not. Why would the act of creation be any different?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by killinghurts, posted 04-18-2010 11:20 PM killinghurts has replied

Replies to this message:
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killinghurts
Member (Idle past 4993 days)
Posts: 150
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 39 of 39 (557583)
04-27-2010 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Taq
04-22-2010 1:16 AM


"Taq" writes:
Has God ever answered your prayers? If yes, were those answers the product of what could be considered natural occurences? If yes, then what's the BFD? From my time in christianity (the first 22 years of my life) all testimonies tended to center around very natural occurrences. A sign here, a person talking to them there. It would seem to me that the actions of God occur through nature more often than not. Why would the act of creation be any different?
Very interesting reply.
I seem to find this quite common among religious people. Start out with the conclusion (God did it) and then find the evidence to fit ("natural occurences").
Thanks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Taq, posted 04-22-2010 1:16 AM Taq has not replied

  
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