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Author Topic:   Squaring circles: direct biblical contradictions
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 151 of 161 (542182)
01-08-2010 5:37 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Sky-Writing
01-07-2010 7:33 PM


Add To The Discussion
Sky,
It is customary to reply to a post with one post, not multiple short posts. Only when a response is long and involved is it sometimes broken down into more than one post.
You have already been advised by Admin to try to make positive contributions with your posts that will move a discussion constructively forward. That warning follows through to all threads. Please adjust accordingly and refrain from short posts that don't move the discussion forward in a positive way.
Please direct any comments concerning this Administrative msg to the Report discussion problems here: No.2 thread.
Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour suspension.
Thank you Purple

Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encylopedia Brittanica, on debate

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Sky-Writing, posted 01-07-2010 7:33 PM Sky-Writing has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Apothecus, posted 01-08-2010 11:38 AM AdminPD has replied

  
Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2410 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 152 of 161 (542223)
01-08-2010 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Sky-Writing
01-07-2010 7:33 PM


Re: Inspired works?
Thanks for the replies, Sky.
Fundi Churches don't work that way. Sorry.
Elaborate, please.
So your kind of making stuff up to support your views.
Elaborate here, as well. Exactly where do you assert that I may have been "making stuff up"?
And the phrase is only about 10 years old.
Please provide some sort of basis for this. The term I used was "mainstream science", not "Mainstream Science" (note capitals). As in science, modified with the adjective mainstream, to differentiate this type of science from other, less reputable or trustworthy types of "science". IOW, "Creation Science", which requires as much effort to differentiate it from mainstream science as is humanly possible.
Yes, but you didn't give her a chance...
Were you in the coffee shop that day, Sky? You have no idea what type of discussion ensued, nor can you assume our conversation didn't serve to strengthen her faith by opening her eyes to other, some would say "more defensible" interpretations of biblical text. Your comment has been filed under "Baseless Assertions."
The person seeking truth....gets it.
I agree with you here, but one fella's truth is not the next fella's truth. So in your opinion, if you don't support the next fella's version of truth, does that mean that fella is believing what he wants to believe but is hopelessly wrong? If so, then how can you possibly support your own version without resorting to the same?
Have a good one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Sky-Writing, posted 01-07-2010 7:33 PM Sky-Writing has not replied

  
Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2410 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 153 of 161 (542229)
01-08-2010 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by AdminPD
01-08-2010 5:37 AM


Re: Add To The Discussion
Sorry AdminPD. Just saw the part about not responding in this thread. Did you mean no responses to your post or just not to respond to Sky? Didn't mean to ignore your edict.
Take care.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by AdminPD, posted 01-08-2010 5:37 AM AdminPD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by hooah212002, posted 01-08-2010 11:39 AM Apothecus has not replied
 Message 155 by AdminPD, posted 01-08-2010 11:53 AM Apothecus has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 154 of 161 (542230)
01-08-2010 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Apothecus
01-08-2010 11:38 AM


Re: Add To The Discussion
It meant (as with almost any admin message) to not respond to that particular message.

Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Apothecus, posted 01-08-2010 11:38 AM Apothecus has not replied

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 155 of 161 (542234)
01-08-2010 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Apothecus
01-08-2010 11:38 AM


Re: Add To The Discussion
quote:
Sorry AdminPD. Just saw the part about not responding in this thread. Did you mean no responses to your post or just not to respond to Sky? Didn't mean to ignore your edict.
Take care.
This is a question that should have and could have been taken to the Report discussion problems here: No.2 thread. It means do not respond to administrative posts within discussion threads. It means you take any comments, questions or concerns you have concerning the Administrative message or action to the Report discussion problems here: No.2 thread.
This prevents the off topic discussion of the Administrative message.
Enjoy your 24 hour suspension.
Please direct any comments concerning this Administrative msg to the Report discussion problems here: No.2 thread.
Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour suspension.
Thank you Purple

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Apothecus, posted 01-08-2010 11:38 AM Apothecus has not replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 156 of 161 (542338)
01-09-2010 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Sky-Writing
01-07-2010 7:13 PM


Willfully Choosing to Believe a Lie
Romans 1:20
I'm glad you managed to reference this one before the fight-or-flight thing got you. Let's go ahead and look at this passage in context to get a good understanding of what it is saying.
Romans 1:20 writes:
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
You have refused to believe the clear and awesome story that the real creation is telling to scientists who devote their lives to understanding its wonders. You do not have the excuse of prior generations and cultures, where literacy was rare and education was hard to come by. It requires a genuine effort of will to dismiss all the evidence that the universe has to offer.
1:21 writes:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
You take real satisfaction in this vain exercise of the power of your mind, and as a result, though you have been exposed to the concept of what God really must be, you have denied it in your heart and set your will upon an imaginary deity which you can understand and imagine. By doing this, you have reduced the splendor of God to a mere filthy creature like yourself. This allows you to distract yourself from the plain teaching which requires you not to be contentious, to resist not evil, to be wise as a serpent and gentle as a dove, with the pretense that the part that is really important is your interpretation of obvious parables and "just so" stories.
1:22 writes:
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
This unspeakable hubris has led you to enter into detestable disputations with your betters, each an expert in their field. The inevitable result is that you have made many obvious errors and embarassed yourself. The consequence of this is that your audience are now much less likely to consider any argument which might lead them to a better relationship with the God you claim to be honoring.
1:23 writes:
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
You have totally failed to follow the plain commandment to give up your idolatry, and taken your mental pictures of a young earth, a first-century preacher, and a very slanted, censored version of a book that in reality condemns you, to create a false god who tells you what you want to hear.
1:24 writes:
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
As a result, God has given up on you and left you to your own devices. Without the real power of the spirit, you have been forced to derive your substitute for real transcendent experiences from repressed sexual energy, filling your imagination with abominable misconceptions regarding your fellow humans. This is why the fundamentalist colleges are full of confused and angry transgender types.
1:25 writes:
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Sky-Writing, posted 01-07-2010 7:13 PM Sky-Writing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Sky-Writing, posted 01-12-2010 2:38 AM Iblis has replied

  
Sky-Writing
Member (Idle past 5151 days)
Posts: 162
From: Milwaukee, WI, United States
Joined: 03-12-2009


Message 157 of 161 (542697)
01-12-2010 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Iblis
01-09-2010 1:33 AM


Re: Willfully Choosing to Believe a Lie
I'm sorry. Were you talking to God or just giving yourself a stern scolding?
Edited by Sky-Writing, : .
Edited by Sky-Writing, : Confused

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Iblis, posted 01-09-2010 1:33 AM Iblis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by AdminPD, posted 01-12-2010 4:16 AM Sky-Writing has not replied
 Message 159 by Iblis, posted 01-12-2010 4:56 AM Sky-Writing has not replied

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 158 of 161 (542703)
01-12-2010 4:16 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Sky-Writing
01-12-2010 2:38 AM


You Were Warned
You've been warned in this thread to refrain from short posts that don't move the discussion forward in a positive way. See Message 151.
I am suspending you for 12 hours.
Please direct any comments concerning this Administrative msg to the Report discussion problems here: No.2 thread.
Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour suspension.
Thank you Purple

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Sky-Writing, posted 01-12-2010 2:38 AM Sky-Writing has not replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 159 of 161 (542705)
01-12-2010 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Sky-Writing
01-12-2010 2:38 AM


Re: Willfully Choosing to Believe a Lie
Here's a real Bible contradiction, one that serves as a teaching tool:
Matthew 8:11,12 writes:
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Do you understand this lesson? The man Jesus is happy with here is a Roman centurion, a pagan; but he understands obedience:
Matthew 8:9 writes:
For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this [man], Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth [it].
God likes this attitude a lot better than he does the sort that glorifies in its own interpretation:
Mark 12:38 writes:
And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and [love] salutations in the marketplaces,
And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts:
Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.
Do you get that? Not just damnation, greater damnation.
Matthew 7:15-27 writes:
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Yes, there are many contradictions in the Bible. But they are certainly not errors. Serious as a heart attack ...
Edited by Iblis, : where their worm dieth not and their fire is not quenched

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Sky-Writing, posted 01-12-2010 2:38 AM Sky-Writing has not replied

  
anthonylau 
Suspended Junior Member (Idle past 5087 days)
Posts: 20
Joined: 04-24-2010


Message 160 of 161 (557245)
04-24-2010 12:57 AM


spam deletion
Edited by AdminAsgara, : spam deletion

  
Jzyehoshua
Member (Idle past 760 days)
Posts: 153
Joined: 06-10-2010


Message 161 of 161 (564815)
06-12-2010 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Blzebub
10-17-2009 4:57 PM


1. It doesn't say it's wrong to want to be able to tell good from evil. The sin was in their disobedience. You are reading your interpretation into this that what they did wrong was wanting to tell good from evil. Rather, wouldn't it be more logical that the reason that was wrong was that the reason they could tell good from evil was they had become evil? It says by that act, sin (and it seems disobedience entered into the world) which would appear why they were kicked out of the garden. (Romans 5:12)
2. The Bible also calls David a man after God's own heart, and speaks highly of Moses as a humble person. Yet David committed a horrible act that God punished the whole nation for, having a man murdered to cover up his sexual immorality with the guy's wife, while Moses' pride led to him disobeying God, glorifying himself instead of God, and not being able to enter the Promised Land. This is no contradiction, merely the Bible speaking of the mistakes of its authors so only God is seen as truly good. Thus, the Bible can indeed call someone good or just. But it also says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3), the inference then that even good men, just men, make mistakes - sometimes horrible, disastrous ones. God's definition of good or admirable does not always mean not making mistakes, but rather owning up to them, apologizing, and trying to change so they don't happen anymore.
3. This is merely a confusion based on translation from the original Greek/Hebrew into our English language. While the KJV did a pretty good job, some concepts can be confusing when translated in, and frankly sometimes word choices could've been differentiated more clearly. In this case, the confusion comes from 'testing' and 'tempting'. God tested Abraham to see if Abraham would do His will, but was not trying to make Abraham sin. This is different from tempting to try and get one to do evil - the kind spoken of in the James verses. The word peirazo in James 1:13 has the meaning of 'entice' and is the same word used in Matthew 4:1-3 and Matthew 16:1 to describe how Satan tried to trick Jesus into betraying the Father, and to describe the Pharisees' attempts to trick Jesus into false statements. Whereas the Hebrew word nacah in Genesis 22:1 does not have as part of its definition according to Strong's dictionary 'entice' and means to prove or try. It is the same word translated 'prove' in Exodus 16:4 where God says "that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no". There is a difference between trying to trick someone into doing wrong, and simply testing to bring out character or see if they will do what's right. While the Bible speaks often of God doing the second, it does not tell of Him doing the first.
4. Simply stating that households will be divided and one's foes will be family members does not exempt us from the commandment to honor parents. Likewise we are told to obey authorities (Romans 13), though there are clear exceptions when to do so would be to disobey God. (Acts 4:19, 5:29, Daniel 3) The assumption made here is that hostile family environments means disobedience, but Biblically, this is simply an end product of following God's ways. "All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." (2 Timothy 3:12) Another assumption is that the verse in Luke 16:26 means disobedience to parents, which is not what it says. Whether it really means hatred or detesting, or simply means loving so much less as some Biblical scholars believe, and have said the Greek word translated hate there means, I am not sure. All the same, it is no contradiction.
5. The Hebrew word translated kill in Exodus 20:13 obviously does not mean merely kill, but likely our equivalent of murder. Bear in mind the KJV was written centuries ago, and the language is now outdated. While 'kill' may have sufficed then, we would now consider murder a more appropriate term. The original Hebrew term, ratsach, translated 'kill' here is the same one translated 'murderer' in Numbers 35:16-21 and 'manslayer' in Numbers 35:12. This does not mean the original Scriptures were wrong, merely that the KJV translators could've done a better job in being exact on this term. It is translated 'murder' elsewhere in the Old Testament (Psalms 94:6, Jeremiah 7:9, Hosea 6:9).
6. This is one of the most complex teachings it seems. Nevertheless, key to understanding this is the 'curse of the law' that Paul talks about when he says:
quote:
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Without going into this in depth, the Law is just in declaring this punishment, but it curses all who do not fulfill it, stating, "Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." (Deuteronomy 27:26) That is why all through the New Testament Paul makes the point that the key is mercy, not the Law. While the Law is just, it can never justify a person since by the Law all are guilty (Romans 3). Thus as Jesus told the Pharisees who wanted to stone the adulteress, we can't cast the first stone unless guiltless ourselves. We should show mercy since we ourselves are guilty.
Paul states more on the Law's purpose in Galatians 3:19-25. Jesus illustrated this principle in Matthew 18:28-35. It is perhaps best summed up by James:
quote:
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
7. It does not say he was standing, merely that he fell and lay down. Someone could be sleeping, stagger to their knees after getting stabbed in the temple, and fall down. Furthermore, the word translated 'lay down' in Judges 5:27, shakab, can carry meanings of rest or sleep according to Strong's Greek dictionary:
quote:
07901. bkv shakab, shaw-kab' "a primitive root; to lie down (for rest, sexual connection, decease or any other purpose):--X at all, cast down, ((lover-))lay (self) (down), (make to) lie (down, down to sleep, still with), lodge, ravish, take rest, sleep, stay."
For example, it's the same word translated 'lay down' in Genesis 28:11 where it talks of one laying down to sleep.
Edited by Jzyehoshua, : No reason given.
Edited by Jzyehoshua, : No reason given.
Edited by Jzyehoshua, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Blzebub, posted 10-17-2009 4:57 PM Blzebub has not replied

  
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