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Author | Topic: Star formation | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
killinghurts Member (Idle past 5015 days) Posts: 150 Joined: |
1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, Modern science explains the formation of stars from matter (wiki gives a reasonably good explanation Star formation - Wikipedia). There are no requirements for supernatural intervention. So.. a pretty simple question: If we can now explain the formation of stars without supernatural intervention, on what grounds does the bible claim god created them?
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Admin Director Posts: 13018 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
Thread copied here from the Star formation thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2316 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
killinghurts writes:
Let me answer with a question in return: If we can now explain the formation of stars without supernatural intervention, on what grounds does the bible claim god created them? God could not have created stars through natural means becasue...?
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Flyer75 Member (Idle past 2444 days) Posts: 242 From: Dayton, OH Joined: |
Would you not agree though killing that evolution needs no supernatural intervention for the formation of anything???
The explanation a creationist is going to give you for star formation is the same explanation we (they) will give you for everything else in life, that being God created it initially and now nature runs it's course. Plant formation, the birth of animals and humans, ect...all created originally by God and now running it's natural birth/death course in life. I don't see the hangup for creationists in the star formation scenario.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2316 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Flyer75 writes:
Why would you bring up evolution? We're talking about physics here, not biology.
Would you not agree though killing that evolution needs no supernatural intervention for the formation of anything??? The explanation a creationist is going to give you for star formation is the same explanation we (they) will give you for everything else in life, that being God created it initially and now nature runs it's course. Plant formation, the birth of animals and humans, ect...all created originally by God and now running it's natural birth/death course in life. I don't see the hangup for creationists in the star formation scenario.
Also a possible explanation. That it's happening naturally now does not mean the "originals" formed naturally as well. Of course, there's no evidence for this, and everything points to the exact opposite, but this is the faith and belief forum, so I guess this one counts.
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Flyer75 Member (Idle past 2444 days) Posts: 242 From: Dayton, OH Joined: |
Huntard writes: Also a possible explanation. That it's happening naturally now does not mean the "originals" formed naturally as well. Of course, there's no evidence for this, and everything points to the exact opposite, but this is the faith and belief forum, so I guess this one counts. All I'm doing is simply addressing the OP question of if a star can form naturally, where is the need for a God and supernatural creation. I'm just saying, for the creationist, it's simple, maybe not "provable" but simple, God formed the stars, set them in motion and now they form and die on a natural basis, like everything else around us. I'm not advocating that anyone here has to believe this but the OP wants answers (from creationists it appears) as for the need for a supernatural beginning to stars. I'm applying his question to everything out there, evolution included...why just mention the formation of stars???
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Huntard Member (Idle past 2316 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined:
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Flyer75 writes:
Yes,I got that, and I basically agreed with you. I just wanted to poin tout that we don't have any evidence from the real world supporting this. I also stated that since this is the faith and belief forum, this doesn't matter. All I'm doing is simply addressing the OP question of if a star can form naturally, where is the need for a God and supernatural creation. I'm just saying, for the creationist, it's simple, maybe not "provable" but simple, God formed the stars, set them in motion and now they form and die on a natural basis, like everything else around us. I short, I agree with your statement.
I'm not advocating that anyone here has to believe this but the OP wants answers (from creationists it appears) as for the need for a supernatural beginning to stars. I'm applying his question to everything out there, evolution included...why just mention the formation of stars???
Well, I guess the OP thought he had a point where he could say "gotcha, creationists". But we'll have to wait for him to answer. Also, if we were to talk about the origins of everything, this would a far to wide topic But yes, your explanation could fit there as well. Again, I'll say, I agree with your explanation.
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Flyer75 Member (Idle past 2444 days) Posts: 242 From: Dayton, OH Joined: |
Ahhh...I see. I guess we'll have to wait for the OP to weigh in and see if he has more to add.
I had understood that you agreed with my second point, I just wanted to clarify that using his premise, we can apply a creationist perspective to everything, even evolution, for the theistic evolutionists or gap theorists out there. Thanks for the clarification Huntard. Take care
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Peepul Member (Idle past 5039 days) Posts: 206 Joined: |
quote: On the usual grounds that people believe that the bible is true. It's clear looking at these statements that they relate to a primitive understanding of the universe, and could easily have been written by people of that era without intervention of God. In fact, they are so incomplete that they provide great evidence that they weren't> provided by God. God would have known better. For example :- * The stars are also great lights - greater than the moon - and yet the bible presents the moon as a great light but not the stars. * The earth is created before the sun
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4039 Joined: Member Rating: 8.2 |
1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, Modern science explains the formation of stars from matter (wiki gives a reasonably good explanation Star formation - Wikipedia). There are no requirements for supernatural intervention. So.. a pretty simple question: If we can now explain the formation of stars without supernatural intervention, on what grounds does the bible claim god created them? The basic issue here is the same as with most religious claims about natural origins: Religious claims almost never have anything to do with an explanation of how. Instead, they assert to answer who. The Biblical account regarding star formation (or anything else, including the creation of the Sun, life, etc) very rarely touches on how, and when it does, it's in the most vague sense possible ("God made two lights"). It's about saying "God did it." This is why most religious claims are completely unfalsifiable, and why religious claims regarding origins are scientifically useless. It's like explaining the origins of a car by saying "Toyota made it." It tells you nothing of use as to how the car was made. In the case of star formation, "God did it" fits just as well with naturalistic explanations (since God is proposed to be an omnipotent deity whose actions are indistinguishable from nature, ergo the need for faith, but who is also proposed to be responsible for everything) as with a more "I Dream of Jeannie" magic explanation.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3479 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Poor question. You're personifying the Bible. It can't make claims. The priestly writer has passed so he can't change what he wrote. The priestly writer also didn't write a scientific paper, he wrote a religious story. The writer doesn't claim his story is based on "science". The writer is not responsible for what people claim today. Why do some people today still claim the stars were created by God when science has shown that no supernatural intervention is necessary for their formation? I think the answer depends on the purpose, just like the priestly writer's story. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4211 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
Poor question. You're personifying the Bible. It can't make claims. The priestly writer has passed so he can't change what he wrote. The priestly writer also didn't write a scientific paper, he wrote a religious story. The writer doesn't claim his story is based on "science". The writer is not responsible for what people claim today. Why do some people today still claim the stars were created by God when science has shown that no supernatural intervention is necessary for their formation? I think the answer depends on the purpose, just like the priestly writer's story. Which is why I have said that one can only understand the significance of the Biblical stories when viewed through the eyes of the writers & not through modern eyes. There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002 Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969 Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
im sure you'd all agree that within the core of a star is vast amount of energy, so where does all this energy come from?
does hydrogen and helium create itself? do these gases really just come together on their own in the vastness of space and fuse to form stars? Creationists do not believe that these elements just appear out of nowhere and start going to work to produce matter. These must have a source and they must be guided in some way. The bible explains that God is the 'source' of all energy in the universe. Isaiah 40:26 Raise your eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? ... Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one of them is missing. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 823 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
Isaiah 40:26 writes: "....not one of them is missing" That's right folks, every star that EVER was is still there. No supernova, no red giants, no quasars: they are all still there. Man, this bible is a great astrology..er, i mean, astronomy book. peg, that quote alone should tell you that they were basing it off what they saw, not intrinsic knowledge of the cosmos. They see the stars they see, they say they are all there. Read the words YOU TYPE. hell, let's look a few lines down:
Isaiah 28 writes: 28Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding. Looks like you think the earth is flat too, huh? You gonna venture to one side and fall off? Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given. Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given. "Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan "Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu
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Peg Member (Idle past 4951 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
you can read the verse however you like
the fact is that matter is produced by energy and energy does not create itself....if it did we wouldnt need power-plants.
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