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Author Topic:   Aquatic Ape theory?
arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 112 of 138 (554399)
04-08-2010 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by RAZD
04-07-2010 11:33 PM


Re: Please Address these Additional Objections
Thanks, Raz, I will look into doing that. I have a cool pic I want to use....
One thing you, Bluebird, and all here would agree with me, we are all evolutionists. Perhaps I should venture outside this fun topic. I have a good knowledge of the Bible, and evolution. This thread is the only place where I am not mainstream
To tell the truth, I shouldn't be doing this. I am going to have a spinal operation soon, and pecking on keys is feeling like a bit of purgatory.
On the in the water transformation I will always be a believer. I sense the notion is getting legs outside the AAH.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by RAZD, posted 04-07-2010 11:33 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 113 of 138 (554400)
04-08-2010 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Blue Jay
04-07-2010 11:24 PM


Sorry Bluebird,
In my defense, I am in a lot of pain. There are two spinal operations in my near future. I shouldn't be hunched over the keyboard. I have to tell you, though, I was a bit hurt by the way you depicted your rejection of primate behavior as specious as would be a salamander and a frog.
There was as much as 240 million years between the advent of the salamander and the split to the frog. The old world monkeys are just 30 to 40 million years separate from us. Like us, they have a binocular vision, clever hands, and an ability to learn. When I see that a monkey can dive into the water for safety, and food, I can't see why a smarter Hominem couldn't have done the same.
The chimpanzees live in two different environments. The Bonobo is living a life style apart.
I think with all the Leakey intertwined politics it is no wonder macho was fuzed into the evolutionary model.
Anyway the Savannah theory has bit the dust. The environment Ardi was found in is a world of dense woods, meadows, streams, lakes, and springs. Sounds like Eden to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Blue Jay, posted 04-07-2010 11:24 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Blue Jay, posted 04-08-2010 10:20 AM arrogantape has replied
 Message 126 by Blue Jay, posted 06-04-2010 8:09 PM arrogantape has replied

  
arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 122 of 138 (554471)
04-08-2010 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Blue Jay
04-08-2010 10:20 AM


Blue Jay says:
"Timeframe doesn't matter. You've pointed out three examples of things that are not on our direct line of descent. So, even if those animals are adapting to the water (and, as RAZD has argued, they are not), what does this mean for us? The animals that fit between us and those monkeys in the Tree of Life are not aquatic, so, clearly, their aquaticism is not related to any putative aquaticism in our heritage.
They're irrelevent."
Granted, the three monkeys I described are not in our direct lineage. I can't say I read anything Raz wrote that counters what these monkeys are doing. The three monkey's behavior are well documented.
Given that we are primates, what these monkeys irrefutably demonstrate are:
1) Primates can learn, or change, to wade in the water at long distances upright. They can use this erect stance to maneuver overhead food. This can be seen using the net.
http://www.arkive.org/...key/nasalis-larvatus/video-06c.html
2) Primates can learn to escape from predators by jumping into water, and dive under the water.
Allen's Swamp Monkeys - Facts, Information & Habitat
3) Primates can learn to open a vast new food source through exploring under the water.
Allen's Swamp Monkeys - Facts, Information & Habitat
Please read the material and watch the videos. There is no reason to worry whether these animals have any relationship to us or not. The above literature, and film just prove positively primates can and do utilize water resources. What a monkey can do, an ape can do better. Just the other day I watched a nature program where chimps were enjoying a fun time in a pool formed in a depression after a rain.
I am not saying this is PROOF Ardi, or any hominem DID swim, and dive. I am just saying they certainly COULD HAVE.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Blue Jay, posted 04-08-2010 10:20 AM Blue Jay has not replied

  
arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 124 of 138 (554558)
04-08-2010 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Hyroglyphx
04-08-2010 11:38 AM


Sorry I made the impression I meant we evolved from the Hobbit. The point I was trying to drive through is, this primitive hominid got where they were on Flores through generations making slow progression from Africa. Cladistics put the Hobbit just above H habilis. I would suspect that is what they started out as H Habilis, who died out more than a million years before, and ended up as miraculous survivors on Flores. There, it sure looks to me evolution favored fast in and under water travel over land travel.

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arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 127 of 138 (563433)
06-04-2010 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Blue Jay
06-04-2010 8:09 PM


Re: Ardipithecus on the Savannah
I just had an OPLL operation. That is a major operation on the spine, the neck in my case.
As in any peer review of a science paper there will be questions raised. The paper you latched onto is an opinion. Dr. White countered that the monkeys found in the same dig were leaf eating forest monkeys. He agrees that grasslands were in the vicinity, but Ardi was adapted to climbing. Like Dr. White says, Ardi wasn't specialized to climb grass.
I guess you can say Dr. White was a bit testy in his reply.
Here is a paper that agrees with me concerning h Floresiensis:
http://www.ldi5.net/cerbi/24h.htm

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Blue Jay, posted 06-04-2010 8:09 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Blue Jay, posted 06-04-2010 10:06 PM arrogantape has replied

  
arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 129 of 138 (563437)
06-04-2010 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Blue Jay
06-04-2010 10:06 PM


Re: Ardipithecus on the Savannah
Thank you, Bluejay. Actually, I am wearing a rather spacey neck brace. Fused bones have to mend, and that will take another 4 weeks to two more months. I am not dragging my right leg around anymore.
The leaf eating monkeys and apes seem to all live in forests, or am I missing someone? Baboons are the real treed savannah monkey. They are well adapted to run fast for the tree, and scamper up. We have all seen that awful pictorial in National Geographic of a baboon that was caught by a leopard.
The reconstruction art depicting Ardi sure doesn't look like a plains warrior. She looks like she going to offer her hand in greeting; artistic license I suppose.
I really like our discussions. My back is starting to ache, so, bye for now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Blue Jay, posted 06-04-2010 10:06 PM Blue Jay has not replied

  
arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 133 of 138 (563550)
06-05-2010 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by RAZD
06-05-2010 9:20 AM


Re: Ardipithecus walking on the emerging Savannah
Wow, another primitive bipedal on an island, in the Mediterranean sea, no less. Savannah, or no, this critter, or it's grand pappy, as well as great grand spawn, swam to islands. This is another confounding item hard to explain without admitting our upright stature enables swimming and diving just as well as carrying groceries.
This is a quote from a description of a cave site at 72 thousand years ago, just 3 thousand years after the VE1-8 super volcano wiped out nearly everyone. This epochal event is interesting to me. It is where they found remnants of tiny seashell strung jewelry, and ochre.
"The people who used Blombos were not permanent residents. The artifactsmostly stone spear points and scrapers, seashells, and butchered animal bonesreveal that small groups stayed at the cave for weeks at a time to hunt and gather food. They’d collect abalone, mussels, and other shellfish from the tidal flats, trap rodents, and hunt antelope and fur seals. After they moved on to a new spot, sand would blow into the cave, covering the belongings the group left behind. What we are looking at is almost a snapshot of life 70,000 or 100,000 years ago, says Henshilwood. We are trying to reconstruct human behavior in the past from a really limited set of information that we have available to us today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by RAZD, posted 06-05-2010 9:20 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by RAZD, posted 06-06-2010 9:35 PM arrogantape has replied

  
arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 135 of 138 (564298)
06-09-2010 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by RAZD
06-06-2010 9:35 PM


Re: Blombos Cave and the Southern Dispersal Route
I was writing about two entirely different things. Reading back, I was surprised I had done so. Since, I have been told the effects of heavy anesthesia can linger for months. It seems true.
The upright femur found in Italy is a site once an offshore island. The species (Oreopithecus) of that individual who left evidence of upright mobility certainly swam from a mainland to the island. The important lesson of this is our upright stance allows us to walk upright and to swim rather well over long distances. No one can deny this.
My second thought train went off track to the 70,000 year old Blobose site, a cave overlooking the shore. We can look at 75,000 as the barrier where only a tribe or two survived the horrible conditions that lasted as much as two years.
There is no doubt that in five thousand years, humans had made inland excursions. It was a long gestation of 25,000 years, though, before humans striking out of Africa along the southern Indian and Asian shores to Australia. Now, that surprises me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by RAZD, posted 06-06-2010 9:35 PM RAZD has not replied

  
arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 136 of 138 (609456)
03-20-2011 2:11 PM


The evidence is mounting
Around 70,000 years ago the earth turned very ugly and wiped out all humans save for a few thousand living in southern Africa coastal caves. In the caves archaeologists found ochre, fancy tools, and lots of bivalve leftovers. These were our ancestors. Scientists found complex tools and red ochre at a location in Pinnacle Point South Africa. They also found lots of bivalve left overs.
By 70,000 years ago this culture spread to other coastal sites. Out of these oyster eaters came all the rest of us. It has been postulated the ready protein the community had fueled the final brain development needed for our modern human intellect. A coastal cave site used between 75,000 years and 55,000 years yielded the same inventive tools and ochre use, and lots of bivalve feast leftovers.
I say, if clam eating enabled brain enhancement for H sapiens, then it follows the full hominid line might have followed the same successful food strategy, being steady brain growth followed the hominid succession.

Replies to this message:
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arrogantape
Member (Idle past 4641 days)
Posts: 87
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 138 of 138 (609507)
03-21-2011 12:31 AM


My latest source is this: The Great Human Migration | History| Smithsonian Magazine
Granted, this article is made for public information. Please understand, I do not subscribe to the aquatic ape theory.
I am saying our laid out posture, subcutaneous fat, naked body, flipper like feet, grasping hands, etc.... should make one wonder why we are so visually different than our close cousins, the chimpanzees.
I used the word clams after saying bivalve many times. Of course, their diet was more than clams. Anything edible in the sea was eaten.
The special tools, art, jewelry, and ochre use is not found over Africa. One only finds tools not much more advanced than the venerable hand ax.
The Proboscis monkey, Allen's monkey, and another that slips my mind, use the water for safety, travel, and foraging. There is no damn reason to think we couldn't have done the same thing. The coastal cave digs prove we were diving for easy eats at least 146,000 years ago.

  
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