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Author Topic:   Happy Easter This Saturday Evening!
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4547 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 5 of 27 (553501)
04-03-2010 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Buzsaw
04-03-2010 2:52 PM


Re: Tradition Problem
Lk 24:1
"But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, bringing the spices which they had prepared."
Jesus was raised on Sunday, not Friday.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Buzsaw, posted 04-03-2010 2:52 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4547 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 6 of 27 (553505)
04-03-2010 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by hERICtic
04-03-2010 4:35 PM


Re: Tradition Problem
Also, it could not have been Wednesday, it must have been Friday.
Luke 23: 55The women who had come with Jesus from Galilee followed Joseph and saw the tomb and how his body was laid in it. 56Then they went home and prepared spices and perfumes. But they rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment.
The commandment clearly states to keep it on the sixth day, Saturday.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by hERICtic, posted 04-03-2010 4:35 PM hERICtic has not replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4547 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 8 of 27 (553553)
04-03-2010 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Buzsaw
04-03-2010 7:40 PM


Re: Reread
Buzsaw writes:
Herictic, you need to put your thinking cap on and read the OP. The Jewish 1st day began on our Saturday evening (evening and morning.
Nothing says he was rased in the AM. It just says the first day. You need to cite evidence for your claims.
Your work day was not a factor. Was that a joke or showing ignorance? Unless you want to debate in good faith, I'd appreciate if you'd find some thread in the Freeforall Forum. I'm too busy for you here for nonsense.
Take a step back for a second. You have yet to offer ANY evidence to support your theory, yet you attack me for providing evidence, which you ignored.
Apparently the only one here who has not thought this through, would be yourself. Use a lil common sense as well as reading what scripture states, read what I wrote and try NOT jumping to conclusions.
I never said Jesus rose in the AM. Nowhere. I said Jesus rose on Sunday. Thats it.
You stated Jesus was raised on Friday. Then you stated it was Saturday. REread your opening post. When you posted the "days", you mention Friday evening twice. You meant Saturday morning instead.
I have already given the scripture where it states the women went to the tomb ON SUNDAY and Jesus was not there. Are you suggestiong he rose on Saturday morning, but no one noticed the rest of the day Saturday that he was missing?
What about the gospels which state he was to rise on the third day. By using Saturday, thats four days.
I already gave the scripture where it states as per the commandment, the rested on the Sabbath. The commandment states its the 6th day. This would be Saturday. Why didnt the women go before to see Jesus? Why wait until Sunday? They would have gone Friday.
Do you have any evidence within scripture that states its a Wed-Sat.?
Lk 24: 13Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles[a] from Jerusalem. 14They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16but they were kept from recognizing him.
17He asked them, "What are you discussing together as you walk along?"
They stood still, their faces downcast. 18One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, "Are you only a visitor to Jerusalem and do not know the things that have happened there in these days?"
19"What things?" he asked.
This occurs on Sunday.
"About Jesus of Nazareth," they replied. "He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place.
This is the THIRD day since this took place, Jesus crucified. Counting backwards, Sunday-Saturday, Friday. Thats three days. It cannot be Wednesday.
The gospels clearly state the day after his death was a Sabbath, a high day. Nowhere in the Bible is a high day EVER called a Sabbath. So it can only refer to Saturday. High days were called: "annual feasts, appointed feasts, appointed times, assemblies, solemn assembly, festal assemblies, Festival, fixed festivals, keeping years".
If Wednesday was Passover (14th), then if you count backwards, his entry would have been on Saturday, a Sabbath (the 10th it states is the Triumphant Entry).
So that means, the Jews broke the Sabbath by cutting all the palm branches.
So tell me Buz, between the two of us, who has their thinking cap on?
Also, Mark 16: 9When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week
This would make it Sunday.
Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.
Edited by hERICtic, : No reason given.
Edited by hERICtic, : Additions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Buzsaw, posted 04-03-2010 7:40 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Buzsaw, posted 04-04-2010 1:43 PM hERICtic has not replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4547 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 12 of 27 (553712)
04-04-2010 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by kbertsche
04-04-2010 1:48 PM


Re: Tradition Problem
Buz writes:
OOPS HERECTIC IS RIGHT!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi HeRICT'ic. My sincere apologies and thanks for hanging in there. I'm the one without my thinking cap on when I did #3. I have to leave to go out to dinner but will check in later and read carefully the rest of your message.
No need to apologize. I quoted you above bc it cracks me up at how my "name" gets butchered. I figured, it was pure genius to combine Eric with herectic- hERICtic. Yet no one ever seems to get the name correct. In fact, you gave two different versions in your same post. Herectic and HeRICT'ic.
Maybe a new name? dERIClict? ERICtion? Um...scratch that last one. People will think I'm a prick.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by CosmicChimp, posted 04-04-2010 8:16 PM hERICtic has replied
 Message 15 by nwr, posted 04-04-2010 9:03 PM hERICtic has not replied
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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4547 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 14 of 27 (553726)
04-04-2010 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by CosmicChimp
04-04-2010 8:16 PM


Re: Tradition Problem
Cosmic writes:
Here's a few for ya:
Numeric, Generic, Maverick, Chimeric, Esoteric, Hysteric, Dexteric, Choleric.
Too simple though! I wanted my name to fit in to make it a play on words! Hence Eric plus heretic, hERICtic. Although I do like the sound of HystERICal.
Thanks!

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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4547 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 18 of 27 (553799)
04-05-2010 5:26 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by bluescat48
04-05-2010 1:21 AM


Re: Tradition Problem
AZ writes:
Don't change it hEKiTric.
LOL
BluesCat48 writes:
I think something is missing. Since the traditional crucifixion is places on Friday:
1) He had to be removed from the cross and laid in the tomb before sunset, which started the sabbath. In the ground for part of Friday thus day 1.
2) from sunset to sunset Saturday. Day 2
3) He rises sometime on Sunday thus for part of Sunday he is in the ground. Day 3. Where does it day he was interred for three whole days?
"Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three night in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:38-40).
Three days and three nights. Hence the problem with Friday to Sunday. Some apologists have tried to use the excuse that three days and three nights is just another way of saying three days. Except Jesus clearly states in John 11:9:
" . . . Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world."
So Jesus clearly meant day and night were involved when he stated 3 days and three nights.
So the excuse was then it was not on Friday, but Wed or Thursday. Since Jesus was killed before the Sabbath, one concludes that it must be Friday. But certain apologists claim that there was another Sabbath during the week. Their reasoning is that since one rests on a high day (a high day is a special day of some kind, ie Passover) that its also a Sabbath. So when it stated the Sabbath was arriving, it was not the Saturday Sabbath but another type.
But I clearly showed in my third post, that it had to be Friday based upon the evidence.
Also, Mark 8:31 tells us:
"And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again."
So this would mean he would rise on the fourth day.
Yet: "Now as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside and said to them, 'We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!'" -- Matthew 20:17-19
Its the third day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by bluescat48, posted 04-05-2010 1:21 AM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
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hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4547 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 22 of 27 (553962)
04-05-2010 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Buzsaw
04-05-2010 8:47 PM


Re: Passover Sabbath
Buz writes:
My apologies for the mispelling.
I was kidding!
Buz writes:
We know by the text that the it was time for the Passorver to begin when Jesus and his desciples had their passover celebration in the upper room. That they did this does not mean that that day was the 1st day of Passover.
Sure it does. It clearly states the lambs were slain that day. Not sure what this has to do with your point though....
Buz writes:
Jesus said, "do this in remembrance of me." He would not be with them on the 1st day of Passover which was one of the two Passover sabbaths, the second one being the last day of the 7 days of Passover feasts, etc. The reason it could fall on any day of the week is because the month Nissan's full moon day could fall on any week day.
Why wouldnt Jesus be with them? How does one celebrate Passover? It cannot fall on any day of the week for the reasons I have already given.
1) Scripture states the women went to the tomb on Sunday. If Jesu swas placed in the tomb Friday, before the Sabbath (Saturday) it makes perfect sense for them to go Sunday. If Jesus was killed before Friday, they would not have waited to go on Sunday. They would have went on Friday.
2) Men on the road Sunday, clearly state its been three days since he was cruficied.
3) You mentioned Wed was the Passover. This means the 10th would be Saturday, the Sabbath. Scripture clearly states they broke palm leaves on the 10th. This is a violation of the Sabbath.
4) Mark 16: 9When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week
Buz writes:
The word sabbath is not defined by 7th. It's meaning is a time of rest, usually pertaining to a holy day. The Jewish Levicical priesthood regime called for a number of sabbaths, in which no work was to be done/rest time and all that applied to the 7th day Sabbath applied to the other holy sabbaths.
Show me in the Bible where a high day is called a Sabbath. High days fell on Sabbaths, but nowhere in the entire Bible is a high day called a Sabbath.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Buzsaw, posted 04-05-2010 8:47 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Buzsaw, posted 04-05-2010 10:12 PM hERICtic has replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4547 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 25 of 27 (554038)
04-06-2010 5:30 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Buzsaw
04-05-2010 10:12 PM


Re: Passover Sabbath
Eric previously writes:
Sure it does. It clearly states the lambs were slain that day. Not sure what this has to do with your point though....
Buz writes:
Passover is feast days, requiring a lot of slaughter as the lambs were not only for sin offerings but for the feasts. The ones for the feasts were likely too many to be killing and preparing on a sabbath day.
12On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus' disciples asked him, "Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"
Its the first day. So its the Passover.
Eric preivously writes:
Why wouldnt Jesus be with them? How does one celebrate Passover? It cannot fall on any day of the week for the reasons I have already given.
Buz writes:
Because he was dead!
If you use John. The synoptics say otherwise. But again, I'm not sure why it matters if it was Passover or not. All four of the reasons I gave that it must be Friday have nothing to do with it being Passover.
Buz writes:
His cup of wine and bread rememberance meal was not actually a passover feast, perse, but as the communion ceremony today it was to remind them to remember him as often as they determined, that he is our passover lamb, i.e. lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world (to as many as receive him as lord/master and savior)
Only John calls him the lamb of god, bc he was to be the Passover sacrifice.
Eric previously writes:
You mentioned Wed was the Passover.
Buz writes:
No! I didn't say that as per the Jewish days of evenings and mornings. By my calculations, he was dead and off the cross by the Jewish Thursday eve which would calculate Thursday to be their 1st Passover Sabbath day. (Note: first Passover Sabbath day, not first day of week. )
You mentioned he was killed Wed. You also brought up the fact he could not eat the Passover meal bc he was already dead, as per John. John states he was killed on the first day of the Passover. Hence why he could not eat the Passover meal late in the day. So Passover had to start Wed.
Am I misunderstanding something here?
Buz writes:
The word sabbath is not defined by 7th. It's meaning is a time of rest, usually pertaining to a holy day. The Jewish Levicical priesthood regime called for a number of sabbaths, in which no work was to be done/rest time and all that applied to the 7th day Sabbath applied to the other holy sabbaths.
Eric previously writes:
Show me in the Bible where a high day is called a Sabbath. High days fell on Sabbaths, but nowhere in the entire Bible is a high day called a Sabbath.
Buz writes:
If you weren't so insistant on your looser postion, one of them is right there as scripture sates he had to be off the cross before sabbath, and traditional Friday-Sunday calculations in no way allow for the next day to be the 7th day sabbath because it only calculates to 2 nights.
First, I gave four solid reasons why it could only be Friday. You addressed only one of them. As for this one you addressed, yes he had to be off the cross before the Sabbath, bc it was Saturday. Please provide the scripture where it states a high day is called a Sabbath. I'm not sure what you mean that it calculates to "two night". His death?
Dead placed in tomb Friday, before Sabbath. In tomb all day Saturday. Rose Sunday.
Thats three days.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Buzsaw, posted 04-05-2010 10:12 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Buzsaw, posted 04-06-2010 9:25 AM hERICtic has replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4547 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 27 of 27 (554185)
04-06-2010 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Buzsaw
04-06-2010 9:25 AM


Re: Passover Sabbath
Buz writes:
HERICtic, sorry, but your last message didn't make enough sense to warrant the time required for a response.
Buz, my reponses makes perfect sense. The issue is that you've made a few mistakes which have made it difficult to grasp exactly when Jesus died, when he rose and when the Passover is. I gave you four reasons why it had to be Friday, you've ignored them all.
So lets take a step back. If you're willing to go further with this, I would love for you to clarify some points.
Let's assume at 6pm a day changes. Evening to evening, Jewish day.
So we have Tues. ending, Wed. beginning-6pm.
We have Wed ending, Thurs beginning-6pm
We have Thurs ending, Friday beginning-6pm
What day do you believe Jesus died?
Which day is the Passover?
Once I have an understanding of those two points, I think I might be back on track.
Thanks.
Edited by hERICtic, : To clarify some issues.

This message is a reply to:
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