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Author Topic:   Is Jesus God?
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 226 of 492 (552417)
03-28-2010 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Peg
03-22-2010 7:23 PM


Jesus is LORD God
Peg writes,
"Their reasoning was completey wrong just as your reasoning is completely wrong."
I agree that someone's reasoning is completely wrong, but it was neither the Jews of Jesus' day, nor my reasoning. The wrong reasoning is all yours.
Maybe you would like to reason with Saul as he traveled to Damascus in Acts 9,
3 As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him;
4 and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"
5 And he said, "Who are You, Lord ?" And He said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting
Jesus did not deny that He was Lord to Saul, nor does Jesus do so to those who declare, as did Thomas, "My Lord and my God." We are able to hear His voice and follow Him (John 10:27).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Peg, posted 03-22-2010 7:23 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Peg, posted 03-29-2010 7:00 AM John 10:10 has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 227 of 492 (552420)
03-29-2010 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by Peg
03-28-2010 5:17 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
If paul was making a simple point about humility, why would he need to mention that Jesus 'may have been' equal to God?
Peg I am assuming you are being silly here or evasive. What better way to demonstrate humility than to demonstrate that even as God he did not think equality with God was something to be grasped, but he humbled himself and took on the form of a servant
Answer this simple question. What better way to demonstrate humility than the one described in this passage?
Your claim is that paul is telling christians that Jesus WAS equal to God...so tell me what Jesus attitude was? Because If Jesus attitude is that he WAS equal to God, then the whole humily argument goes out the window because humility is a recognition of ones limitations....something Jesus would not have had and therefore no need to be humble.
Where did you get the silly idea that humility is ONLY a recognition of ones limitations?
No he couldnt and he even tells humans this very fact. He had to protect Moses from viewing him because no one can view God.
I agree
Moses was asking to see God as God, God said no thats not possible. God appeared to Abraham numerous times in another form, and to many others
In harmony with what Jehovah told Moses and what the apostle John said, Moses did not see a material form of God. Yes, he saw the afterglow of the divine presence but even from that he had to be protected.
And if Jesus was God, then John must not have been an inspired writer because he certainly got this very wrong.
It is absolutley true that no man can visualize God in his truest form. But it is not true that God did not manifest himself in human form many times. There is no contradiction here
Again, Christ (God) set this very same glory he manifested to Moses aside to live a perfectly moral life in a human form
here is an example
Romans 6:23 "The wages of sin are death" this is an absolutely statement and true all the time.
However cannot provisions be made to set aside temporarily the full force of the consequences, then have the affects of sin put upon someone else.
The provisions dont disallow the truthfullness of the statement or the consequences, it simply makes immediate and temporary PROVISONS to allow another purpose.
Provisions were made by God to allow people to see and talk with him in person. So what is so hard to believe he could live in human form
EAM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Peg, posted 03-28-2010 5:17 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Peg, posted 03-29-2010 7:21 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 228 of 492 (552422)
03-29-2010 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by Sparcz1978
03-27-2010 4:51 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
is there anyone gospel of thomas?
think why Thomas did not have any Gospel....
Gospel of Thomas - Wikipedia
K.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Sparcz1978, posted 03-27-2010 4:51 AM Sparcz1978 has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 229 of 492 (552441)
03-29-2010 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by John 10:10
03-28-2010 11:13 PM


Re: Jesus is LORD God
John 10:10 writes:
4 and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"
5 And he said, "Who are You, Lord ?" And He said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting
Jesus did not deny that He was Lord to Saul, nor does Jesus do so to those who declare, as did Thomas, "My Lord and my God." We are able to hear His voice and follow Him (John 10:27).
So you think because Paul called Jesus 'lord' it means that he is God Almighty?
Thats very strange considering Lord is merely a title of reverence...it was given to many people in positions of authority and others beside God are called lord.
John calls one of the Elders a lord in the book of revelation
Rev 7:13And in response one of the elders said to me: These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from? 14So right away I said to him: My lord, you are the one that knows.
Lot called the two visiting angels Lords.
Gen 19:2And he proceeded to say: Please, now, my lords, turn aside, please, into the house of YOUR servant and stay overnight and have YOUR feet washed
Abigail called David her Lord
1Sam25:24She then fell at his feet and said: Upon me myself, O my lord, be the error; and, please, let your slave girl speak in your ears, and listen to the words of your slave girl
So please explain how the calling of Jesus a lord means that he is Almighty God.
You might also like to explain why John says that
John 1:18 "no man has seen God at any time"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by John 10:10, posted 03-28-2010 11:13 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by John 10:10, posted 03-29-2010 10:54 AM Peg has not replied
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Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 230 of 492 (552444)
03-29-2010 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by Dawn Bertot
03-29-2010 1:40 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
EMA writes:
Peg I am assuming you are being silly here or evasive. What better way to demonstrate humility than to demonstrate that even as God he did not think equality with God was something to be grasped, but he humbled himself and took on the form of a servant
i have to admit that im getting a little tired of going over and over this same point, so i'll make this my final comment on it.
If God became visible in the flesh, then John was not an inspired writer because he said
"no man has seen God at any time"
And finally, if Jesus was God then having an attitude that equality with himself was not something to be grasped is just a silly notion. If he was God then there would be no need to state this because it would be like me saying i dont need to be equal to myself...its rediculous.
EMA writes:
Where did you get the silly idea that humility is ONLY a recognition of ones limitations?
I didnt say 'only'. But of all the things that humility is, a recognition of ones limitations is one of them. We are humble when we recognize our lowly position and act in accord with that position. Jesus was humble because, although he was in a powerful position, he recognized his lowly position beside his Father and accepted the work God had given him.
But God himself is in the highest posiition in the universe and therefore he cannot literally be lowly before anyone. He cannot look at someone else in a higher position, so its not really possible for him to be humble in such a way.
His Son Jesus could be humble because he could look to one in a higher position to himself.
EMA writes:
But it is not true that God did not manifest himself in human form many times. There is no contradiction here
Can you provide the scritpures that say that God Almighty manifested himself in human form?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-29-2010 1:40 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-29-2010 11:07 AM Peg has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 231 of 492 (552470)
03-29-2010 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Peg
03-29-2010 7:00 AM


Jesus is LORD God
Peg writes,
"So you think because Paul called Jesus 'lord' it means that he is God Almighty?"
Paul did not call Jesus "lord." Paul called Jesus "Lord."
Lord is the position of honor within the Godhead. Before Jesus' incarnation when He entered the world He made (John 1:10), the position of Lord resided with God the Father (Isa 48:16). After Jesus' exaltation to the right hand of God the Father, Peter declared this:
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ - this Jesus whom you crucified" (Acts 2:36).
Moses was not allowed to see the Lord's face in Ex 33:23, but God did allow Moses to see His back side.
Begotten in John 1:18 refers to Jesus' resurrection, not His birth (Acts 13:33). Jesus is the only ONE who has fully seen God the Father. Jesus is the only ONE who could say, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father" (John 14:9).
Deny if you will that Jesus is Lord God. "If we deny Him, He also will deny us" (2 Tim 2:12).
Those that deny Jesus is Lord God will not enter into eternity with Him.
It's as simple and as difficult as that!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Peg, posted 03-29-2010 7:00 AM Peg has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 232 of 492 (552471)
03-29-2010 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Peg
03-29-2010 7:21 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
i have to admit that im getting a little tired of going over and over this same point, so i'll make this my final comment on it.
If God became visible in the flesh, then John was not an inspired writer because he said
"no man has seen God at any time"
Peg repeating yourself is not responding to an argument. I demonstrated that while a statement can in fact be emphatic it in no wise eliminates other possibilites
Romans 6:23 is an emphatic statement, yet do you deny that provisions were made in the form of exceptions, not to circumvent the rule but to show exceptions that allow a type of deviation from the absolute rule.
It is absolutely true no man has EVER seen God in his original form, but why does this exclude him appearing in another,
Do you not realize that you and the earth and physical existence are a different form of God material. By what force and by what power were these things reorganized into thier present form. Since only God exists then it follows that there is only God substance and material. hence God material was reorganized (so to speak) into a form we can comprehend and behold
I agree with what John said, but repeating him is not an argument. So if you are tired it must be from repeating yourself with no following argument
And finally, if Jesus was God then having an attitude that equality with himself was not something to be grasped is just a silly notion. If he was God then there would be no need to state this because it would be like me saying i dont need to be equal to myself...its rediculous.
I asked you a simple question in this connection and you avoided it. What greater example OF HUMILITY could be provided than God himself setting asided his glory to live and die as a man
besides this Jesus did not state this directly about himself, it was Paul demonstrating Christs humility. Of course Christ would not boast of his own humility
Speaking of humility you say
I didnt say 'only'. But of all the things that humility is, a recognition of ones limitations is one of them. We are humble when we recognize our lowly position and act in accord with that position. Jesus was humble because, although he was in a powerful position, he recognized his lowly position beside his Father and accepted the work God had given him.
Since this is not the only quality of humility, could you provide me some other characteristics that may discribe humility.
I would say that humility is PRIMARILY an attitude of the mind, not a position of status or delegation. "Let this MIND be in you which was also in Christ Jesus"
Like pray is an attitude of the Heart not a position of the body
I believe as we move along here it is becoming clear that this has very little to with whether Jesus is God verses whether you think God, could and would humble himself to live as a human or whether he would manifest himself in human or angelic form
if your only justification for this is Johns statement, then your positon is misguided. I would ask you to provide scripture and reason as to why he would not do this, other than your dissatifaction of it
But God himself is in the highest posiition in the universe and therefore he cannot literally be lowly before anyone. He cannot look at someone else in a higher position, so its not really possible for him to be humble in such a way.
While very respectful, this is simply an opinion, not backed up by anything, except your misguided view of humility.
If this is the case, why would God humble himself to created anything physical in the first place. Why would God create freewill knowing sin is a possibility. Why would God created physical things and call it GOOD?
Why would God humble himself to forgive sin, certainly sin deserves punishment and why would he humble himself to let his son die in a humans stead. if God is what you imply he is, then none of these other things would be possible either.
His Son Jesus could be humble because he could look to one in a higher position to himself.
Even if it was jesus decision, since God is the God of the universe, he would say, according to your argument, "You will do nothing of the sort Jesus, my Son, I will not allow it, because I am God of all the universe and I have a reputation ot uphold.
Your argument concering humility does not seem to hold water Peg
I dont understand this your knowledge of the scriptures is nothing short of impressive, why would you adopt some greek philosophy concering god and what he would do or not do/
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Peg, posted 03-29-2010 7:21 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Peg, posted 03-29-2010 9:44 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 233 of 492 (552508)
03-29-2010 3:53 PM


Jesus is LORD GOD
When Moses asked God who He was in Ex 3:14, God said this to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM
Jesus declared this to the Jews in John 8:58, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM."
Thus Jesus identified Himself as the eternal I AM GOD.
To those who honor Jesus as LORD GOD, no other proof is necessary.
To those who do not honor Jesus as LORD GOD, no other proof can be given.
To those who deny Jesus is LORD GOD, He will deny you.
It’s as simple and as difficult as that!

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 234 of 492 (552567)
03-29-2010 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Dawn Bertot
03-29-2010 11:07 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
EMA writes:
It is absolutely true no man has EVER seen God in his original form, but why does this exclude him appearing in another,
if God has appeared in human form, the OT should contain an account of it.
If you believe that he appeard as Jesus, then why has he not appeard to Isreal in the form of a man? You wont find anywhere in the OT where he has done so.
EMA writes:
if your only justification for this is Johns statement, then your positon is misguided. I would ask you to provide scripture and reason as to why he would not do this, other than your dissatifaction of it
this thread is full of scritpures that show that Jesus is not Jehovah.
But it seems the scriptures are not enough for some to accept so lets go back in history to the first and 2nd century writers and find out what the earliest beliefs among early christians were before the doctrine of the trinity was introduced in the 3rd/4th century.
The following christian writers are called the ante-Nicene Fathers. They were leading christian teachers in the early centuries and some were taught by the christians who associated with the apostles.
Justin Martyr (100-165) called the prehuman Jesus a created being.
Trypho Chapter LXIWisdom is begotten of the Father, as fire from fire. writes:
I shall give you another testimony, my friends, said I, from the Scriptures, that God begat before all creatures a Beginning,[who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave (Nun). For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father’s will, and since He was begotten of the Father by an act of will
Irenaeus, who died about 200C.E., said that the prehuman Jesus had a separate existence from God and was inferior tohim.
Iraneous wrote in 'On the Detection and Overthrow of the so-called Gnosis writes:
"the Father is above all things. ''For the Father," says He[Christ]"is greater than I."The Father, therefore, has been declared by our Lord to excel with respect to knowledge."
Clement of Alexandria, (150-215) called God the uncreated and imperishable and only true God. in his writing 'Exhortation to the Greeks, ch XII., par. 93.'
Tertullian (160-220)
In his treatise against Praxeas writes:
"The Son is distinct from the Father, and the Spirit from both the Father and the Son (Adv. Praxeam, xxv). These three are one substance, not one person; and it is said, 'I and my Father are one' in respect NOT IN THE SINGULARITY OF NUMBER but the unity of the substance."
Hippolytus
In his writing 'Against Neotus' chpt 1 writes:
Some others are secretly introducing another doctrine, who have become disciples of one Noetus, who was a native of Smyrna (and) lived not very long ago. ... He alleged that Christ was the Father Himself, and that the Father Himself was born, and suffered, and died. ...what a strange inflated spirit had insinuated themselves into him. From his other actions, then, the proof is already given us that he spoke not with a pure spirit; for he who blasphemes against the Holy Ghost is cast out from the holy inheritance. ... When the blessed presbyters heard this, they summoned him before the Church, and examined him. ...he wished thereafter to uphold his dogma openly as correct. And the blessed presbyters called him again before them, and examined him....Then, after examining him, they expelled him from the Church.
Origen (185-254)
"Origen had thought of the Father and the Son as two distinct realities and had only been able to preserve a monotheistic standpoint by admitting that the Son was in some sense subordinate to the Father. The Son was preexistent and related to the Father as ever-begotten and co-eternal, yet he occupied a level of being within the Godhead lower than the Father."
As you can hopefully see, none of these early christian teachers taught that Jesus was Jehovah. Why? Becuaes the NT does not contain such a doctrine. The Apostles never taught such a doctrine and Jesus never taught such a doctrine. These early christians were reading the NT in their native tongues so its not as if they need to interpret things the way we do...they were reading the language they spoke and they did not read a trinity doctrine into any of the NT writings.
The only explanation for that is becaues there was not doctrine at that time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-29-2010 11:07 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Phage0070, posted 03-29-2010 10:51 PM Peg has replied
 Message 237 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-30-2010 1:55 AM Peg has replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 235 of 492 (552579)
03-29-2010 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Peg
03-29-2010 9:44 PM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
Peg writes:
if God has appeared in human form, the OT should contain an account of it.
If you believe that he appeard as Jesus, then why has he not appeard to Isreal in the form of a man? You wont find anywhere in the OT where he has done so.
Frankly, the Old Testament is a bit schizophrenic about the whole issue. For instance:
Exodus 33:20 - "And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."
Compared to:
Exodus 33:11 - "And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle."
These are two verses within the same chapter which directly contradict each other on the subject of God appearing to people. In fact God is directly telling Moses that he cannot see his face, despite the earlier passage saying that they spoke face-to-face.
Whatever the eventual conclusion of what is going on in that scene, the point is clear that biblical support for any interpretation is going to be extremely difficult to take seriously no matter how clear the language. Was God in human form? He has a face and loins "ever upward" and "ever downward" (Ezekiel 1:27) which have been seen, but also has not and cannot ever be seen (1 Timothy 6:16).
As with most of the Bible, pick an interpretation that pleases you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Peg, posted 03-29-2010 9:44 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Peg, posted 03-29-2010 11:07 PM Phage0070 has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 236 of 492 (552585)
03-29-2010 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by Phage0070
03-29-2010 10:51 PM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
Phage0070 writes:
These are two verses within the same chapter which directly contradict each other on the subject of God appearing to people. In fact God is directly telling Moses that he cannot see his face, despite the earlier passage saying that they spoke face-to-face.
the difficulty is in rendering the hebrew into english because hebrew is so much more flexible in its use.
If you read the writings of the NT, they understood it to mean that God had used someone to speak on his behalf, and for this reason it was as if God himself was speaking.
In Acts 7, the account about the diciple Stephen shows that their belief was that an angel spoke on Gods behalf
Acts 37, 38, 50 writes:
This is the Moses that ... came to be among the congregation in the wilderness WITH THE ANGEL THAT SPOKE TO HIM on Mount Sinai and with our forefathers, and he received living sacred pronouncements to give you.
so exodus is not a contradiction, its simply viewed that when God sends an angel to speak for him, its as good as if God is speaking himself.
Another example of this is found with Moses and Aaron. Moses was said to be the one who spoke to Isreal, but it was actually Aaron who did the talking.
Ex 4:15-16 writes:
15And you must speak to him (aaron) and put the words in his mouth; and I myself shall prove to be with your mouth and his mouth, and I will teach YOU men what YOU are to do. 16And he must speak for you to the people; and it must occur that he will serve as a mouth to you, and you will serve as God to him
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Phage0070, posted 03-29-2010 10:51 PM Phage0070 has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 237 of 492 (552599)
03-30-2010 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by Peg
03-29-2010 9:44 PM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
if God has appeared in human form, the OT should contain an account of it.
If you believe that he appeard as Jesus, then why has he not appeard to Isreal in the form of a man? You wont find anywhere in the OT where he has done so.
Since I never said Jesus appeared as himself in the Old testament, it would be obvious that you are putting words in my mouth. all I said is that God appeared in human form. here they are
And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.
Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him....
Genesis 18:1
And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre.
Genesis 26:2
And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of.
Genesis 26:24
And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not.
Genesis 32:30
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Genesis 35:9
And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him.
Genesis 48:3
And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan.
Exodus 3:16
The LORD God ... appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you.
Exodus 4:5
That they may believe that the LORD God ... hath appeared unto thee.
Exodus 6:3
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob....
Exodus 24:9-11
Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. And they saw the God of Israel ... They saw God, and did eat and drink.
Exodus 33:11
And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend.
Exodus 33:23
And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts.
Numbers 14:14
For they have heard that thou Lord art among this people, that thou Lord art seen face to face.
Deuteronomy 5:4
The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire.
Deuteronomy 34:10
And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face.
Judges 13:22
And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.
1 Kings 22:19
I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
Job 42:5
I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
Psalm 63.2
To see thy power and they glory, so as I have seen thee in the sanctuary.
Isaiah 6:1
In the year that King Ussiah died, I saw, also, the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up.
Isaiah 6:5
For mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
Ezekiel 1:27
And saw ... the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward....
Ezekiel 20:35
And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
Amos 7:7
The LORD stood upon a wall made by a plumbline, with a plumbline in his hand.
Amos 9:1
I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake.
Habakkuk 3:3-5
God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran .... He had horns coming out of his hand.
Matthew 18:9
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
Now since it is true that no man has ever seen Gods true nature and lived, it would follow from these scriptures that he appeared in some human form at times
this thread is full of scritpures that show that Jesus is not Jehovah.
it is also full of passages that ascribe to Jesus ALL THE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD. A point you still not have addressed
Ill try this one more time with no hope you will entertain a response. of course jesus was not Jehovah by name in a servant state, Jesus was a name given after his incarnation. He set the name Jehovah aside as a servant.
he was however still God, which refers to his essence. As the scriptures make it abundantly clear that he was deity, they also make it aboundantly clear that he emptied himself of the glory, which would also include the name of Jehovah, which referred to God in heaven
as a servant there would be no need for him to be called Jehovah or God, by title or name. however the scriptures make it clear that he was and is that Jehovah, precarnate., "before Abraham was, IAM", etc, etc
But it seems the scriptures are not enough for some to accept so lets go back in history to the first and 2nd century writers and find out what the earliest beliefs among early christians were before the doctrine of the trinity was introduced in the 3rd/4th century.
Your kidding correct peg? Nearly every oneof these writers are advocating the trinity
Watch this from tertullian
"The Son is distinct from the Father, and the Spirit from both the Father and the Son (Adv. Praxeam, xxv). These three are one substance, not one person; and it is said, 'I and my Father are one' in respect NOT IN THE SINGULARITY OF NUMBER but the unity of the substance."
What is one substance Peg, when speaking of deity?
if they are not directly advocating it, they are referring to Christ in a human relationship and servant state.
others flat disregard what scripture clearly states
The only explanation for that is becaues there was not doctrine at that time.
I have already demonstrated this to be false in two ways. I have provided direct statements from early Christians to this effect.
I can reproduce them if you wish.
secondly i demonstrated that the scriptures ascribe all the attributes of God to Christ. I can reproduce them if you wish
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Peg, posted 03-29-2010 9:44 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Peg, posted 03-30-2010 3:14 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 238 of 492 (552605)
03-30-2010 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by Dawn Bertot
03-30-2010 1:55 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
EMA writes:
Now since it is true that no man has ever seen Gods true nature and lived, it would follow from these scriptures that he appeared in some human form at times
unfortunately none of those scriptures tell us that God took on human form... im pretty sure you wont find a scripture that does.
Yes God spoke to people thru his angels, yes he gave visions of himself but nowhere is he ever physically seen except for Moses was saw the glory of his back after Moses was shielded from seeing God in his fullness.
EMA writes:
it is also full of passages that ascribe to Jesus ALL THE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD. A point you still not have addressed
of course he had all the attributes of God, he imitated God perfectly as he said he did
Even mankind has been created in the 'image' of God with that attributes of God...Adam was a perfect man with those attributes, we are imperfect people and we still display Gods attributes.
And Jesus was said to be a 'corresponding' ransom for the 'first man Adam'
1Cor 15:45It is even so written: The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. ... 49And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly one.
So if Jesus corresponds to the life that Adam lost, then Adam was a perfect man who had the same attributes of God like Jesus....and like chrisitans can also have. It doesnt make all of us God becuase we can have the attributes of God.
Ok so you are going to ignore the early christians i posted and go with turtillian who 'appears to you' to be advocating that trinity...
lets be clear that he most certainly not advocating that trinity...he is not saying that God and Christ and Holy spirit are all one being which is what the trinity claims.
He is saying they are all one with respect to 'substance' which does not mean what you think it means. It means their purpose, goals, desires are one and the same. this is in harmony with Jesus words
"I and the Father are one"
"I always do the things pleasing to my Father"
"I do not do a single thing of my own initiative"
Jesus showed that his desires are the same as his Fathers, his will is the same as his Fathers, his goals are the same as his Fathers. In this way the substance of everything Jesus is, was the same as the Fathers.
its not a physical substance which is why Turtulian says 'I and my Father are one' in respect not in the singularity of number, but the UNITY of the substance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-30-2010 1:55 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by kbertsche, posted 03-30-2010 11:34 AM Peg has replied
 Message 242 by Dawn Bertot, posted 03-31-2010 2:29 AM Peg has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2132 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 239 of 492 (552635)
03-30-2010 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Peg
03-29-2010 7:00 AM


Re: Jesus is LORD God
quote:
So you think because Paul called Jesus 'lord' it means that he is God Almighty?
Thats very strange considering Lord is merely a title of reverence...it was given to many people in positions of authority and others beside God are called lord.
...
So please explain how the calling of Jesus a lord means that he is Almighty God.
In NT Greek, the word "lord" sometimes refers only to a position of human authority, as you say. But it is often used differently, to refer to the OT "YHWH" (which was read in Hebrew as "Adonai", meaning "Lord"). Which one of these two meanings is intended must be determined from context. See Message 157.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Peg, posted 03-29-2010 7:00 AM Peg has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2132 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 240 of 492 (552636)
03-30-2010 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by Peg
03-30-2010 3:14 AM


Re: Jesus WAS God in earliest NT teaching
quote:
unfortunately none of those scriptures tell us that God took on human form... im pretty sure you wont find a scripture that does.
I don't think there is any passage that says this clearly enough to avoid dispute. But my vote would be for Daniel 3:24-25:
NET Bible writes:
Then King Nebuchadnezzar was startled and quickly got up. He said to his ministers, "Wasn't it three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?" They replied to the king, "For sure, O king." He answered, "But I see four men, untied and walking around in the midst of the fire! No harm has come to them! And the appearance of the fourth is like that of a god!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Peg, posted 03-30-2010 3:14 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by Peg, posted 03-31-2010 1:06 AM kbertsche has replied

  
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