Meat Morality and Human/Animal/Alien Rights

I don't know. Are you? Does seeing another person die by your own hand, regardless of it being in defense of your own life or not, trigger an empathic response? Is that empathic response lessened if you actually don't directly see that person die as a result of your actions?Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that most people have no idea where their meat comes from, how animals are slaughtered, how the carcasses are processed, etc. There are even anecdotal stories of people becoming vegetarians after seeing an animal slaughtered and butchered for the first time. In today's society we keep these processes out of sight for the most part and in doing so people have less of an emotional response to seeing slabs of meat in the store. This seems to indicate that the old saw "out of sight, out of mind" has some bit of truth to it.Could this lessened empathic response due to technology distancing actions from consequences also carry over to our alien scenario? Should we be more afraid of a fleet of robots (e.g. butcherbots) descending on to our planet than we should fleets of spacecraft filled with alien beings capable of the same type of empathic responses we have?

Hey greyseal. I spoke to the farmer from whom we purchase the grass-fed beef that my family eats, and he confirms what you've stated concerning "stress responses" in cattle. His is a very small enterprise, and it's amazing the amount of compassion he and his family feel for what they calls their "pets", especially considering at some point they will eat a portion of them... But he emphasizes what stress can do to animals such as this, and the difference which results from allowing cattle to lounge and relax in grassy pastures as he says they should. He says "a happy animal equates to tasty meat", although of course that is an entirely subjective statement. Tastiness is in the uhh ... tastebud of the beholder.But it is tasty, and I agree that I do feel somewhat better about eating these cows vs. mass-feedlot-wading-in-shit cows. My wife says the expense is justified, not just from a health standpoint, but from a moral standpoint as well. I'm inclined to agree...Have a good one.

Hi, Taq. I agree: there is an important distinction there.I'm going to back off now: it seems like your argument doesn't really include the points I was trying to attack, so my attack is misdirected.At least some clarity of our respective positions came out of it.

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-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)Darwin loves you.

Maybe after the event but you are not going to have time or the objectivity to have an empathetic response when you are in a fire fight. The last thing on your mind is, "I wonder if he is all right" reffering to the adversary you are shooting at. Actually I think by not being in the thick of things and not being pumped up on adreneline you may have a more objective view of the situation and may be more empathetic to the result of your actions. Just my thoughts.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. - Carl Sagan, The Fine Art of Baloney Detection"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World

Well that is basically my conclusion too. But I am not sure we would be quite so philosophical about it should that happen.I guess (to contradict myself somewhat) that my actual conclusion is that aliens should treat us with some moral consideration based on our level of sentience and that we should also treat other sentient animals with more moral consideration than we actually do. I just find it hard to get too worked up about our morally inconsistent treatment of animals for purely subjective reasons.The point of this thread is simply to point out that inconsistency really.

Very good actually. The second baby Straggler was born just over a couple of weeks ago now. Stress and drama as there inevitably always is with these things but all good in the end. How bizzarre! Well I have no idea. I have tried to look this up and cannot find anything on it. My guess is that this is not the case but then I would never have guessed it would be the case in the US either.

Hey speak for yourself!! Well I think that making ourselves gastronimaclly undesirable is more likely to work than a bout of moral philosophy. So you may well be onto something here.

And the deer doesn't just lay down and let the lion eat it, either. I think we do treat more sentient animals more morally. And the cute ones too You know of dolphin-safe tuna, right? What's up with that?Sure, there's exceptions and some people do terrible things. But in general I think there's a trend between level of sentience and how we treat them. I don't think many of them are that conscious that we're being very immoral. Who gets it the worst? Cows and pigs and chickens? Do they have any clue what's going on? Can they even consider an alternative? And how bad are the collective "we" really treating them?ABE: I wondered where you've been. Congradulations!Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

You left out Buddha. Which rhymes nicely and is sort of relevant in the "all life has value" context we seem to be slipping down. I think that has to be the rational conclusion here. But like you I find it hard to get worked up about animal rights in general. Even though I think rationally I should be more morally concerned. Not just dinner. Consider experimentation for exanmple. The question of sentience as related to human infants, dementia ridden geriatrics and those suffering from other brain injuries or ailments remains. We are indisputably special pleading humanity not on the basis of sentience alone. Which, as I have said, is fine but does lead to some rationally inconsistent morality if we simultaneously cite sentience as our primary criteria. Are you talking about estate agents? Or snouty nosed rodents? Only one of those will get any moral considerataion from me You see I have indiscriminantly eaten various indistinct "bush meats" in Africa and I still find it hard to get upset by the thought I may have munched something as sentient as an ape. My only point here is that we are very inconsistent in our application of actualy caring despite our supposed rational moral criteria. Have you eaten rat? Or continual cnflict pushes technology to the point that we can leave our humble litle rock and venture off to lay waste to the rest of the universe like a swarm of marauding cosmic locusts.I like your outlook better (and think it more likely) but there is at least an argument to be made for thinking that the technologically advanced aliens under consideration here might be so advanced technologically out of the same sort of needs that all too often drive our own technological progress. Indeed.

Cuteness and anthromorphication definitely count for a lot. And yes we do sort of sometimes take some degree of sentience into account when it isn't too inconvenient. Pigs are quite intelligent creatures apparently. But that doesn't seem to help them much. Now hat is an interesting point. Is a degree of sentience that allows a sense of morality (even if applied inconsistently) what we could argue with those pesky man eating aliens seperates us from the animals we eat and generally treat without moral consideration?Have we found our get out clause? The general basis of morality is "Do unto others as you have them do unto you". On this basis we treat animals horrifically really. At a speciestic level that is basically what we would be asking those aliens to do despite the fact we ourselves do not. Cheers dude. I am friggin knackered.

That's because they're ugly and delicious. Perhaps, but it depends on the aliens. If they're blind and dumb and only perceive and communicate through telekinesis, or something, then we might be below the threshold of being sentient enough to have an appreciable morality to warrant not eating. Yeah, I think you have a valid point here with this thread.If we want to say that aliens eating us is immoral, then we should acknowledge that we treat animals immorally too. I bet. I'm not ready for kids yet.

Ohhh Straggler. How disappointing to read that you wrote that. Gorillas, chimps, and many other endangered animals in Africa (and the world) face a bleak future. If not for yourself, at least I hope you can instill in your newborn (congrats by the way) a stronger value for the world's shrinking wildlife.Alas, I also eat meat and wear leather. So I won't browbeat you further, lest my own hypocrisy is hoisted on its own petard. But maybe you can read some stuff from my fav animal photographer and activist, Karl Ammann. Check out the gruesome photos:Page not found – The world of Karl AmmannBTW, I am a member of the Dian Fossey Gorilla Fund International. And I have tickets to see Jane Goodall (famed chimp primatologist) in Toronto April 8:http://www.janegoodall.org/...all-lecture-university-toronto(Err, I find primatology fascinating. )Edited by dronester, : spelling

So there is a new Straggler Junior, or Juniorette, on the planet? Congratulations!You have now become officially selected for by Natural Selection and have fulfilled your evolutionary function.You can die now.Or not, if you want. No I didn't. Both and lawyers. In practicing her culinary arts I think I've come very close, but, no, not that I'm aware. But, then again, I can not be certain. True but I sure hope not. I would not like to think I would do well in a Barnaise.Congrats, Dad.Edited by AZPaul3, : 'cuz

Oh I know that I should feel worse about it and I wouldn't actively seek out such cullinary experiences for all the good reasons you point out. All of which I wholeheartedly agree with on a rational level. But at the same time I just don't feel that bad about the fact that I may well have done in the past. Rightly or wrongly it just doesn't cause me the same sort of emotional distress that I would imagine finding out I had eaten human meat might cause. We are just speciests at the end of the day. And I don't think it has that much to do with sentience whatever we often tell ourselves. I hope they have that too. In fact I hope that in years to come they tell me off in much the same way you are now. I know I know. The way we treat animals is pretty unjustifiable really. I think we can learn a lot more about ourselves from such studies than most are willing to recognise.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

Well I like children. But I couldn't eat a whole one.