Beretta:
Personally. I'll go with the God of the Bible
Which makes ID a religion.
So if other Christians believe in evolution does that mean evolution is a religion?
Not if they believe that evolution is a naturally occurring event, even where "naturally occurring" means according to natural laws made at creation. If evolution is as "natural" as gravity it is not part of the religious beliefs.
Only if they believe that god is the motive force behind evolution, directing events would it reach the scale of being a religious belief -- for them (not for everyone else).
Now I agree that Jars response:
Beretta:
Personally. I'll go with the God of the Bible
Which makes ID a religion.
Is a bit of an overstatement. Rather I would say that your particular
use of ID is religious, not that ID necessarily is because you (and all creationists\christians that adopt it) use it that way. The problem is that you can't separate your use of ID from your interpretation of what ID really involves.
As I've said, I find such use by creationist\christians rather amusing because of the contradictions involved between creationism\christianity and a
pure ID approach. As a result all creaationist\christians that use ID use a corrupt version. This corrupt version of ID prevents them from pursuing a
pure ID approach.
There was a thread a while ago about the ability of some people to combine their christian beliefs with the beliefs of other religions. It had some interesting comments, particularly about the resolution of contradictions, but the point is that combining creationism\christianity with ID is of the same nature as combining two or more versions of faith.
In a
pure ID approach, the conclusions of science are necessarily all valid, whether it is the old age of the earth or the validity of evolution. We see this in some of the discussions by ID theoreticians about the old age of the earth and validity of evolution.
Let me outline how a
pure ID approach would work:
Area A: discerning design
Assumption #A1: that there is an intelligent agent that is\has designed some aspect of the universe that we know. This can be anything from the beginning of the universe to the way quantum mechanics works on a daily basis.
Assumption #A2: that this design work can be discerned by humans as not being accomplished by natural means as we know it.
Conclusion #A1: that we must be able to discern all examples of human design from natural mechanisms. In other words we should be able, by some process, to identify human designed DNA from natural DNA, as an example.
Conclusion #A2: that, failing to develop the process required in Conclusion #A1, we must be able to discern examples of supernatural design mechanisms. In other words we should be able, by some process, to discern actual supernatural mechanisms in action, either at work in the present, or from the evidence of past usage.
Conclusion #A3: that, failing to develop the process required in Conclusion #A1 OR the process required in Conclusion #A2, we must learn as much as possible about all the natural mechanisms that exist in the universe so that they can be eliminated, and only when every last possible method of natural mechanisms has been eliminated can we consider supernatural means.
This means that all the (logically valid) conclusions of science that are based on all the evidence of reality that we currently know and as we currently understand, are necessarily all equally valid representations of reality, whether it is the old age of the Earth or the validity of evolution or the orbit of Mercury.
Area B: concerning the implementation of design
Assumption #B1: that the designer is a natural being, an extra-terrestrial, that is using\used natural means to accomplish their design (even though those natural means may not be known by us humans and thus could appear supernatural), together with
Assumption #A2 from above: that this design work can be discerned by humans as not being accomplished by natural means as we know it.
Conclusion #B1a: the means of accomplishment would leave evidence, "tool marks", of the work done by these beings, and thus demonstrate actual implementation of design (as do tool marks on watches and Mt Rushmore),
Conclusion #B1b: that implementation can be accomplished over interstellar distances by some means that is detectable, including mystery rays or the evidence of extra-terrestrial visits, OR
Conclusion #B1c: that implementation can be accomplished over interstellar distances by some means that is undetectable is specifically ruled out by assumption A2.
Conclusion #B1d: this does not answer the question of where the extra-terrestrial designer/s came from -- in less time than needed for the formation of the earth and the evolution of life on it. This leads to an iteration of extra-terrestrial designers until you run out of time and either have evolved or created being/s
This means, of course, that there should be a correlation between extra-terrestrial sightings and implementation of design, and that all extra-terrestrial sighting should be avidly investigated by ID proponents as possible evidence of the designers being caught red-handed.
OR
Assumption #B2: that the designer is a supernatural being, a god (or gods) of limited to unlimited ability, together with
Assumption #A2 from above: that this design work can be discerned by humans as not being accomplished by natural means as we know it.
Conclusion #B2a: the means of accomplishment would leave evidence, "tool marks", of the work done by these beings, and thus demonstrate actual implementation of design (as do tool marks on watches and Mt Rushmore),
Conclusion #2b: that implementation can be accomplished over interstellar distances by some means that is detectable, including mystery rays or the evidence of extra-terrestrial visits, OR
Conclusion #B2c: that implementation can be accomplished over interstellar distances by some means that is undetectable is specifically ruled out by assumption A2.
Conclusion #B2d: this does not answer the question of where the supernatural designer/s came from -- in less time than needed for the formation of the earth and the evolution of life on it. This leads to an iteration of supernatural designers until you run out of time and either have evolved or created being/s
Note that the assumption A2 is necessary for the detection of design, either in the existence of design or in the implementation of design, and that this means that the ability of the god/s involved is limited (see conclusions B1c and B2c).
Conclusions
A
pure ID approach that avoids the question of religion leaves you with three conclusions:
(1) All science is valid: all the (logically valid) conclusions of science that are based on all the evidence of reality that we currently know and as we currently understand, are necessarily all equally valid representations of reality, whether it is the old age of the Earth or the validity of evolution or the orbit of Mercury. (Deism)
(2) All alien sightings are evidence of designers: there should be a correlation between extra-terrestrial sightings and implementation of design, all extra-terrestrial sighting should be avidly investigated by ID proponents as possible evidence of the designers being caught red-handed. (ETism)
(3) Limited god/s: the ability of the god/s involved is limited by their assumed inability to escape detection (see conclusions B1c and B2c), and without this assumption ID doesn't work. (Limited theism)
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : theism
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