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Author Topic:   Jesus: Why I believe He was a failure.
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 393 of 427 (546814)
02-13-2010 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by DevilsAdvocate
02-13-2010 10:44 PM


Re: The Throne
DevilsAdvocate writes:
How many more generations are going to repeat this empty stupid mantra and make ridiculous and idiotic predictions?
if people did more reading of the bible and less relying on the words of tele evangelists they would know the answer to that question.
Matthew 24:36 Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father"
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-13-2010 10:44 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 394 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-14-2010 12:36 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 400 of 427 (546936)
02-15-2010 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 398 by Dawn Bertot
02-14-2010 12:06 PM


Re: The Throne
EMA writes:
If as they predict christ will set up some physical kingdom in Jeruselum
thats not my view...thats buzsaws view.
I take the view that the kingdom is already ruling in the heavens and has been since we entered the last days in 1914...this is when the gentile times ended and the bible calculation is very clear on that...to the month.
The kingdom with Christ as the head went into action at that time and removed Satan and his followers from the heavens as Revelation 12:7-9 says....which explains why society has deteriorated to such a degree as it is today.
I dont beleive we will ever see Jesus physically on earth EVER...he has a much better vantage point from the heavenly jerusalem which was identified by Paul at Hebrews 12:22
But YOU have approached a Mount Zion and a city of [the] living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels,in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn (Jesus) who have been enrolled in the heavens
What is your view???
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 398 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-14-2010 12:06 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 403 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-15-2010 10:04 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 404 of 427 (547005)
02-15-2010 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 403 by Dawn Bertot
02-15-2010 10:04 AM


Re: The Throne
EMA writes:
Interesting though, why 1914, what do you beleive happened on that date to effect the establishment of the kingdom
Well its not that the kingdom was 'established' at that time, but that the Kingdom went into 'action' at that time and began it reign. Until this time, the kingdom was only active upon the christian congregations.
1914 marked the end of the gentile times. The Gentile Times is the period referred to as the appointed times of the nations.
Jesus spoke of these times in Luke 21:24 [b]Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.[/qs]
Now to understand what was trampled upon we look at Jerusalem itself.
The Cyclopaedia by M’Clintock and Strong say: Jerusalem had been made the imperial residence of the king of all Israel; and the Temple, often called ‘the house of Jehovah,’ constituted at the same time the residence of the King of kings, the supreme head of the theocratical state, ... Jerusalem was not, indeed, politically important: it was not the capital of a powerful empire directing the affairs of other states, but it stood high in the bright prospects foretold by David when declaring his faith in the coming of a Messiah [Psalm 2:6; 110:2].Volume IV, page 838.
So Jerusalem represented Gods rulership in the earth. This gives us a clue as to what the gentile times would mean....they would mean that for an appointed time, Gods rulership on earth would not be represented.
but Jesus words show us that those 'appointed times' would come to their end and thus Gods rulership would once again sprout.
The calculation for these appointed times is easy. They began when the last king of Isreal was removed from the throne by Babylon in 607bce. From that time on, no king sat on Jehovahs throne in Jerusalem and jerusalem itself was subjugated by the gentile nations.
Revelation 12:6 & 14 & Daniel 4 tell us the length of time as 2,520 calendar years. (and im happy to give more details for this number if you like)
607 B.C.E. to 1B.C.E. = 606 years
1 B.C.E. to 1C.E. = 1year
1 C.E. to 1914 C.E. = 1,913 years
607 B.C.E. to 1914 C.E. = 2,520 years
We know that 1914 was a turning point in human history and things have never been the same since. This is due to entering the period known as 'the last days' a time of terrible woe for the earth. This is because its the point where the Kingdom of God went into action against Gods enemy Satan as Revelation 12:7-9 says
7And war broke out in heaven: Mi′cha‧el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth...12On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 403 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-15-2010 10:04 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 405 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-15-2010 7:34 PM Peg has replied
 Message 411 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-16-2010 10:56 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 406 of 427 (547034)
02-15-2010 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by DevilsAdvocate
02-15-2010 7:34 PM


Re: The Throne
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Even if 1 day=1 year where do you get 2,520 years? And how do you know when the "women fled to the desert"??
i deliberately didnt put all the details in as i didnt want to complicate my post too much because it takes in the combined prophecies of Revelation and Daniel.... i will try to keep it as simple as possible.
Rev 12:6 and 14 show that 1,260 days are equivilent to a time and times and half a time, IOW 1 + 2 + 1/2 = 31/2 times.
To find out the lenght of a 'time' you divide 1260 into 3.5 you get 360 which is equivilent to 12 lunar months. So a 'time' = 360
Now Seven times (according to Daniel is the length of 'times' when Gods rulership will be absent Dan4:15-17) 7x360= 2,520 days... and once you apply the prophetic years rule found at Ezekeil 4:6 & Numbers 14:34 it becomes 2,520 Years.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
And how do you know when the "women fled to the desert"??
its irrelevant in terms of the gentile times because they began long before the 'woman gave birth to the son' This son is Jesus and the woman is Gods heavenly kingdom.
and im not using WW1 as the basis for the prophecy, im using prophetic dates as the basis for the prophecy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-15-2010 7:34 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by bluescat48, posted 02-16-2010 12:18 AM Peg has replied
 Message 412 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-16-2010 11:34 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 408 of 427 (547086)
02-16-2010 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 407 by bluescat48
02-16-2010 12:18 AM


Re: The Throne
the jews counted the lunar month as 30 days as is seen in genesis 7:11,24; 8:3,4 where a period of 5 months is shown to equal 150 days.
We may not count it that way, but that is how the ancient hebrews did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by bluescat48, posted 02-16-2010 12:18 AM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 409 by bluescat48, posted 02-16-2010 7:04 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 413 of 427 (547183)
02-17-2010 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 409 by bluescat48
02-16-2010 7:04 AM


Re: The Throne
bluescat48 writes:
I don't know where you get your information but the Hebrew months were alternating 30 & 29 day months with an extra month added about every 3 years to get the moon & sun in sync. As for Genesis, the Hebrew calendar didn't exist at the time of Genesis, it was formed after the Exodus.
You know that i get my information from the bible. According to Genesis 7:11,24; 8:3,4, 150 days was equal to five months. If you dont beleive me, look at the bible yourself...i did provide the reference afterall.
But i do agree with you, there was no calendar back then which is probably why the ancient hebrews counted a month as 30 days. its also noteworthy that they held seasonal festivals so its likely that they made adjustments to keep the seasonal festivals occuring at the right time, but the bible doesnt mention if or how they did this although we know they did create a 13th month called Veadar which may be how they compensated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by bluescat48, posted 02-16-2010 7:04 AM bluescat48 has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 414 of 427 (547186)
02-17-2010 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 411 by Dawn Bertot
02-16-2010 10:56 AM


Re: The Throne
EMA writes:
What does "Went into action at that time"(1914) "began its reign"
and "the kingdom was only active upon the christian congregations" Mean?
Without all the involved numbers thingy, (while I am interested in that, but not at present) simply explain from your perspective the philosophical and Biblical premises of these phrases.
sure.
What did jesus do when he was resurrected?
Acts 2:32 This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses. 33Therefore because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which YOU see and hear.
34Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: Sit at my right hand, 35until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.
Hebrews 10:12 But this [man] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, 13from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet
The above scriptures show that after Jesus resurrection, he sat at Gods right hand and was 'waiting' for the time when his enemies would be placed at his feet. So the kingdom wasnt ruling over the earth immediately.
What did happen immediately was that as the first scripture shows, Jesus was given the promised 'holy spirit' and poured it out on his diciples. So he was active upon his congregation, but not upon his enemies.
If it wasnt for the work of Jesus, the christian faith would not have got very far, yet today we see it has spread right around the globe and is still pulling crowds today.
Jesus even said that this work of spreading the kingdom message would happen at Matthew 24:14 where he was discussing the events that would unfold indicating that the 'end times' had begun And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come
EMA writes:
using the Old and NT as a guide, why would we assume there was a time Gods represenative rule was not in place, considering the Church was his body and Christ was its head since that time period
Firstly, Jesus rule is represented by the congregation, true. But Jesus spoke of more then just ruling a congregation...he was to become the king of the whole earth. All the nations would be subject to him. The earth would be transformed into a literal paradise and human sin and imperfection would be done away with forever, the dead would be resurrected and the earth would have no human rulers ever again.
1Corinthians 15:20However, now Christ has been raised up from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death]. 21For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a man. 22For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27For [God] subjected all things under his feet.
The 2nd point is that the scriptures fortell a time when the gentile nations would trample on the very representation of Gods Kingdom
Luke 21:24 Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled
So according to Jesus, there would be an appointed time where the nations would reign and Gods rulership, as represented by Jerusalem and its temple, would be trampled upon.
EMA writes:
Even if we are talking about a time from captivity to NT times wouldnt the Law of Moses still represent Gods rule, (even if someone was on the actual throne or not, until it was fulfilled in Christ, then from christ forward to the present it is represented by the NT, his headship in the Church, or am I missing something?
his headship is most definately in the church, but which church? The church became very divided after the death of the apostles. There was a split that saw the creation of the orthodox church's and the Catholic churchs' and the protestants and the anglicans just to mention a few.... Jesus said that there should not be divisions among his congregation. So which church is he overseeing? They have different teachings, so who is in harmony with Gods word? Jesus said 'Your Word Is Truth'... would he oversee a church who deviated away from scripture? No.
Have any of the churches even upheld Jesus high principles and morals? No. They have mostly turned their back on christianity in favor of greek philosophy and babylonian religious traditions that Im pretty sure he would strongly object to. So can we say that he is sharing with them? Do you think he would pollute himself with what the church's have become?
You dont have to answer this, its just something to think about.
EMA writes:
So the conclusion from these calculations in your estimation is that the second coming is at hand, near, sooner than we might expect, or distant. Or do they have application now? Not looking for a date or trying to be silly, just your opinion
the 2nd 'coming' is NOW and people are ignoring it.
It began when the war of Revelation broke out and Jesus battled with Satan. From this point on we entered 'the last days' and Satan entered his 'short period of time'
Revelation 7:10b Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God
Rev 7:12On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.
You know what the the Apostle Paul says about people like Devils Advocate
Romans 2:14-15
For whenever people of the nations that do not have (Gods) law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-16-2010 10:56 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 419 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-17-2010 8:55 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 415 of 427 (547187)
02-17-2010 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 412 by DevilsAdvocate
02-16-2010 11:34 AM


Re: The Throne
DevilsAdvocate writes:
So it looks like you are off by over 40 years and that your prophetic date should really be 1878. Correct?
mans time table and Gods time table is different i'll agree
but seeing it is Gods prophecy, we reasonably should apply his time table to the calculation....even if it makes us look silly
This is also why WT dates are slightly different to secular dates for historical events... we use the bibles timetable of events. The bible has a chronology of its own and when that chronology is traced, the dates for events such as Babylons destruction of Jerusalem comes out slightly different.
Trusting in God means trusting that the bible was penned under his guidance and therefore must be accurate. Im sure you'd agree that whoever put the sun and stars into motion are a superb mathematician... i think we can trust his calculations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-16-2010 11:34 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 416 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-17-2010 6:26 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 417 of 427 (547200)
02-17-2010 6:33 AM
Reply to: Message 416 by DevilsAdvocate
02-17-2010 6:26 AM


Re: The Throne
you certainly dont have to believe anything i say... no one has a gun to your head.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 416 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-17-2010 6:26 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 418 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-17-2010 6:41 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 420 of 427 (547283)
02-17-2010 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 419 by Dawn Bertot
02-17-2010 8:55 AM


Re: The Throne
EMA writes:
In your context here, we would slightly disagree, that even while he was waiting for his enemies to be laced under his feet he still had complete authority and rule
I do agree, he was placed in the highest position besides God, so yes
But how did he excercise his authority and rule up until the time when the war in heaven broke out? Satan was obviously still in the heavens up until that time and revelation says that satan was "the accuser of our brothers..., who accuses them day and night before our God. Revelation 12:10. So he was obviously in heaveny and showing his opposition to God yet Jesus did not use his authority to stop him until the war.
EMA writes:
Paul in the following verses seems to draw a distinction between christs rule and seems to indicate he is NOW ruling in heaven the earth and the church
But you may notice that Paul speaks of the 'hope'
a hope is not something that is here now...it is something off into the future. The hope that the apostles spoke of regularly was the resurrection.
Acts: 24:15 I have hope toward God, of which hope these men also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of the both the righteous and the unrighteous
Has that hope been realised yet? We cant say that it has because the resurrection has not occured yet. So the full scope of Jesus authority on earth has not been realised.
Jesus was also said to bring an end to 'the last enemy death' 1Cor15:26
Yet people are still dieing... so we cant say he has fully excersized his earthly authority yet.
EMA writes:
while the above verse is certainly concerned with the destruction of jerusealem, and plans God has for the nations concering historical events, I dont believe it affects Christs success and fulfilments.
it certainly doesnt affect his success over the congregation... we can clearly see that.
But that isnt really about the destruction of the physical temple in Jerusalem. It has to do with 'the appointed times of the nations'
these began when the last king of Isreal was dethroned back in 607bce. The appointed times continued thru to, and beyond, Jesus day... so he wasnt talking about the destruction of physical jerusalem.
EMA writes:
So as Paul indicates his rule and authority was never in question and he effected and completed all the success paul mentions and has never lost that authority and rulership, even if he still has enemies.
while jerusalem was to be affected by the nations, I dont think we could conclude at that point and specifically thereafter that jerusalem represented Gods authority anymore, regardless of what historical events took place as result of the gentiles.
since no authority was ever misplaced IN ACTUALITY and nothing was ever lost regardless of what the gentiles nations did, it would be seprate as historical events not effecting Gods plans for the church or kingdom
But Jerusalem and its line of Davidic Kings was the physical earthly representation of Gods rulership. When that was gone, there was no physcial earthly representation anymore.
Gods authority was transfered to Jesus in his heavenly kingdom... it was active and excersized authority over the church only... Until the time that Jesus went into action against the kingdoms enemies.
EMA writes:
Since you brought it up where would you draw the lineo n fellowship and what people believe and teach to make such distinctions
obviously i believe the bible should be the marker... it provides the only source of true doctrine
EMA writes:
what do you think is the dividing line of fellowship in doctrinal matters, what is acceptable to get wrong and what is not. if for example you and i disagree on blood transfusions, the 1000 year reign of christ, the plan of salvation, where it the line
There are some very basic biblical doctrines that should form the basis of everyone's form of christianity
The would include things like knowing Gods identity and name as the very basis. Most church's know that Jehovah is Gods personal name, yet they wont use it. This is the name found at the tops of medieval churchs...its found in older versions of the KJV bible... yet they've removed it in more recent versions... .then modern translators refuse to use the name altogether.
So most chruch goers believe that Jesus IS God... they dont even know that God has a personal name.
Another fundamental bible teaching is that of the resurrection of the dead. Christians should know that this was the very hope that the apostles preached. They said, if the resurrection is not true, we might as well not even be christians. Yet how many christians actually know of this hope??? Not many at all. Their belief is that they will go to heaven when they die which is a falsehood.
The churhc's are responsible for this sort of misinformation and If you were Jesus, would you be happy knowing that very few of your followers actually know this vital information??

This message is a reply to:
 Message 419 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-17-2010 8:55 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 421 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-20-2010 10:38 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 422 by Dawn Bertot, posted 02-24-2010 9:49 AM Peg has not replied

  
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