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Author | Topic: Is America a Christian Nation? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1663 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Percy,
Some comments
That quote is from an article in today's New York Times Magazine: How Christian Were the Founders? That article has a picture titled "Original Image: ‘Declaration of Independence, by John Trumbull/The Bridgeman Art Library"
Curiously, this is from the actual museum website: http://www.bridgemanart.com/...20-%20Defining%20Moments.aspx
quote: And when I search their site for {Original Image: Declaration of Independence, by John Trumbull} I get "No results found, Sorry no results were found." When I search the site for {Declaration of Independence John Trumbull} I get "Your search returned 8 images for Declaration of Independence John Trumbull" http://www.bridgemanart.com/search.aspx?key=Declaration%2... With four slightly different images, SSI 82121, XCF 22523 (seen above), XBP 344388 (which appears to be the basis for the "christ" version), and SSI 82119 (a lithograph based on SSI 82121), all showing the flags and drum. When I search the site for {John Trumbull} I get "Your search returned 45 images for john trumbull" http://www.bridgemanart.com/search.aspx?key=john%20trumbu... None of them show a christ image behind the founding fathers. And when I googled {Original Image: ‘Declaration of Independence, by John Trumbull/The Bridgeman Art Library } the only reference I found to the first picture is their site and links to it. Can someone say photoshop? Can someone say phaque? Can someone say HOAX?
It should come as no surprise that the same Texas Board of Education that is rewriting biology books is also rewriting American history books, ... Some reading for those who are interested:
The Christian Nation Myth, by Farrell Till quote: The American Enlightenment, by Richard Hookerquote: Also seePage not found quote: Those are just a few of the quotes in the article, however I picked those as they reflected the wording of the Declaration of Independence. Cato's Letters - Wikipedia
quote: Nuff said? Enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1663 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Son,
We'll see if my reply is posted http://community.nytimes.com/comments/How Christian Were the Founders? - The New York Times
quote: Moi? abusive? Or are we protecting the gullibles from the truth? There's another faux picture from the "moral" christians:
Can they really think this fools anyone with half a brain? For the real version see: http://www.bridgemanart.com/...9c2991dd549dcb98403e32aeda6c2
I think those things should be taught in history though, to avoid the mass brain-washing of children . As in the real american history? Complete with the influence of the indians on democracy? Complete Book: "FORGOTTEN FOUNDERS, Benjamin Franklin, the Iroquois and the Rationale for the American Revolution," By Bruce E. Johansen enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1663 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Percy
I think both sides can agree that Thomas Jefferson would definitely not side with those claiming the United States is a Christian nation, but what about other founders such as Washington, John Adams, Alexander Hamilton, James Madison and Benjamin Franklin, among others. Thomas Paine was also a deist, and along with the commonwealthmen, he was hugely responsible for many of the political thoughts currant at the time of the Declaration of Independence. There is also little rational doubt that the reference to god in the Declaration of Independence was to the deist concept of a "Natural God" and I think it is safe to say that the christian faith practiced by any of the founding fathers was not a literalist fundamentalist faith. Many seem to have freely mixed deist and christian concepts. But there is another historical factor here that many people may know, but not really consider important: some of the colonies were originally formed for followers of various (christian) sects to escape persecution in their home countries, persecutions that involve whipping to death, stoning to death, burning to death, hanging, etc. Usually because they were considered heretics or devil worshipers (witches etc) by the predominant religious culture of their homelands. These people came here to have the freedom to practice their beliefs. Some of these colonies proceeded to establish religious based governments, such as the Puritans in Massachusetts, and it was not long before they too started persecuting others of alternate faiths by whipping them to death, stoning them to death, burning them to death, hinging, etc, because these others were considered heretics or devil worshipers (witches etc) by the predominant religious culture of the colony. Many people fled Massachusetts to Rhode Island and New York to escape religious persecution. Roger Williams, who established the colony of Rhode Island, is credited with first articulating the concept of separation of church and state. The founding fathers had both a theoretical basis from the philosophies and political thoughts of the enlightenment and they had the practical lessons of recent history to reinforce them. The oldest synagogue in the US is in Newport Rhode Island: Touro Synagogue and Congregation Jeshuat Israel - Newport, RI
quote: The founding fathers did not have far to look to see that religious based governments did not protect the basic human rights of those of alternate beliefs, and there was nothing theoretical about the relationship. They also did not have far to look to see that where religion was kept out of government that these rights were recognized. This was not ancient history to them. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : fix coding Edited by RAZD, : delete duplicated section Edited by RAZD, : ... we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1663 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Buz,
Bottom line: As we the people of the Republic (majority) become more secular, the intent of our Christian oriented founders becomes less relevant. And the intent of our secular oriented founders becomes more relevant. Which includes most of them, whether of personal christian orientation or not. Enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1663 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Hi jrchamberlee
Yes because several of our founding father's were Christians, that is already known as you can research them for your self, I think most of America is Christian, but there is Freedom of religion here so other religion is here to. Really? By your logic ... America is a Deist nation because several of our founding fathers were Deists, that is already known as you can research them for yourself, ... but there is Freedom of Religion here, so other religions are here as well. or even more telling: America is a White nation because several of our founding fathers were white, that is already known, as you can research them for yourself, ... (do I really need to go further?) Please note that Evangelical Christians and Mormonism did not exist back then, so -- again according to your logic -- America is NOT an Evangelical Christian or Mormon nation because none of the founding fathers were Evangelical Christians or Mormons, that is already known, as you can research this for yourself, ... but there it Freedom of Religion here, so other religions are here ... and this now includes Evangelical Christians and Mormons as well as Catholic, Baptist, Protestant, Pentacostal christians, deists, jews, muslims, hindus, atheists, native beliefs, etc etc etc. More importantly, virtually ALL founding fathers were secularists (meaning they believed that church and state should be separate, to each his own) Because of the Freedom of Religion, ALL religious beliefs and non-beliefs are treated on an equal level, and individuals have the right and freedom to believe in whatever faith they desire as long as they do not try to force their belief on others. Because of the Freedom of Religion here, there are now more varieties of religions here than existed during the founding of the nation. Do a majority of Americans now identify themselves as Christian? Yes, however they are divided into several significantly different sects. Thinking that this makes the US a Christian nation is like thinking that white founding fathers and the majority of white people in america make it a white nation ... which is quite curious if we have a black president eh? Enjoy. Edited by Zen Deist, : clrty & brevityby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1663 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi dwise1, nice post.
I trust that you can see why such Religious Right claims never made any sense to me. Had you ever given it much thought yourself? And then there is the whole issue of the wall of separation of church and state and who the letter was written to from one of the founding fathers explaining it. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1663 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Hi once again OpticalIllusions,
Message 126: America and the founding fathers may not be "Christian" but we put "in God we trust" on the money for a reason. ... And when we look at the time that it was sneaked into being on the money, the way it was implemented, and why those that put it there did it, we see that it was over-reactive knee bending fear of "communism" that was the impetus.
... The founding fathers never said they wanted everyone to be atheist, just that they could worthship their own personal God. ... Correction: that anyone could believe what they wanted when it came to religion, and have the right to do so without persecution.
... Notice how it doesn't say "in Gods we trust". None of the founding fathers believed in old disproven pagan Gods. See above for who when and why. The who when and why had nothing to do with the founding fathers, but with weak-kneed politicians and bureaucrats. Many of the founding fathers were deists, where god is more of a generic term.
The fact remains that is *IS* there on our money ... Which is a testament to what weak-kneed, communist fearing ignorant people can do. Certainly it was not put there due to democratic consensus.
Obviously America is christian enough for the money system to work. Not obvious at all. The god in question could be Vishnu. What gives money value is the willingness of people to exchange goods for it. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1663 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Hi again Jzyehoshua
Just a quick note:
Like the Declaration of Independence, it references a Creator as the basis for inalienable rights consistent with ... ... deist beliefs of the time. You seem to be cherry-picking out references to Christianity and then claiming that this is all that applies to the founding fathers opinions. The founding fathers were well experienced with religious persecution, both in England and again here in the Colonies, that were due to having a state religion. When you look at the whole picture you see that the nation was founded with the principle that each and every belief would be allowed with no persecution, including christian. That does not make it a christian nation, but a nation that allows christians to believe their faith without persecution or second-class status, just as it allows jews, deists, native americans etc to believe their faiths without persecution or second-class status. There were a lot of christians that campaigned to make it a state religion, and you can quote them till the cows come home. the fact remains that the government laid out in the constitution is secular, without specific reference to any religion, nor without any religious litmus test required for any office:
quote: Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1663 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Hi Jzyehoshua,
My point was that Jefferson, the same guy who created the term and concept of a "wall of separation" was at the same time writing (in U.S. Law mind you) about how Almighty God is Lord of both mind and body yet didn't coerce others into belief, and this is the basis for U.S. religious freedom. Just curious, have you read the Jefferson Bible?
Obviously if he wanted to stop Christians from presenting views on God in government, he wouldn't have used such religious language himself in referencing "Almighty God". Would this not also apply to deism, or in fact to any religion known and practiced at that time? Is not the issue that no one religion would be given supremacy, but and and all beliefs would be allowed without bias? The founding fathers included christians, but that does not mean that they in any way intended to create a christian nation: the evidence in the Constitution says otherwise. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1663 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Hi Evangelical Humanists and welcome to the fray.
It was created (the US) as a secular nation. Indeed, as rather explicitly stated in Article. VI. Clause 3:
quote: bold for emphasis. ... and that is the only place religion is mentioned in the main body of the constitution. Enjoy.
... as you are new here, some posting tips: type [qs]quotes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:
quotes are easy or type [quote]quotes are easy[/quote] and it becomes:
quote: also check out (help) links on any formatting questions when in the reply window. For other formatting tips see Posting TipsFor a quick overview see EvC Forum Primer If you have problems with replies see Report Discussion Problems Here 3.0 by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1663 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi NoNukes, I agree
I find discussing things with you somewhat frustrating because you have a problem supporting your propositions with making on point, fact based arguments ... ... and that are related to the topic issues. I've had the same problem on the age correlations thread. Perhaps what we are dealing with is strong confirmation bias, a condition that leads one to the impression that some cherry-picked piece of evidence is all that is necessary while ignoring the rest of the picture that doesn't fit the beliefs.
quote: Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1663 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Hi Jzyehoshua,
Well, as far as being a Christian nation, Penn's government: ... And yet this is just one of the colonies, so if you are going to look at the colonies you have to look at all of them, not just the one/s that meet your beliefs and opinions. For instance Roger Williams and Providence Plantation (later Rhode Island)
quote: He knew first hand what happens when there is a state religion -- not from england, but from Massachusetts
quote: Note that he was lucky not to be stoned or burned at the stake as other people were in the Plymouth and Salem colonies. Because of the religious freedom that he insisted on, the oldest synagogue in North America is located in Newport RI. And we should also remember that not all the colonies were founded by religious groups looking for religious freedom in the new land, there were also merchant colonies. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1663 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Jzyehoshua
Fair enough. Just show me what other colonies had Congressional governing systems with checks and balances, freedom of religion, fair elections, and trial by jury, and I'll be happy to take a look at them. None of which are found in any bible as far as I know. Perhaps you can enlighten me. Not coming from the bible means not from christian sources but other sources, even if then espoused by christian leaders.
quote: ... then wouldn't it just be an additional proof, along with Penn, that America's origins, along with the origins of religious freedom, were Christian in nature? No, because his views were in conflict with the religious views regarding the running of government. You just had a lot of Christians but they also had concepts from other sources than Christianity (a Christian doing math does not make math Christian in origin does it?), and they were mixed with other people, and in Roger Williams view, especially with the Native Indians. Benjamin Franklin also so profound value in Native Indian government and its procedures and processes. The Iroquois in particular are known to have influenced many founding fathers on their way of governments. Complete Book: "FORGOTTEN FOUNDERS, Benjamin Franklin, the Iroquois and the Rationale for the American Revolution," By Bruce E. Johansen
quote: I suggest you read the whole thing if you are truly interested in the source of concepts used in the Constitution and the founding of America - the "great experiment" - in ways that differed from European Christians, kings, etc. These concepts are basic to the fabric of America, and they did not come from any type of Christianity I know of, nor from any European source I know of. Roger Williams lived with the local Native Americans here before founding his colony, and only got the colony charter for political reasons, not because he felt it gave him any additional authority. Interesting person (and not all a saint either, but none of the founding fathers were eh?). Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1663 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Hi Jzyehoshua
Just a small quibble or two:
... they want to remove all mention of God from the Pledge of Allegiance, ... (1) The mention of god was added to the original pledge, as was mention of America:
quote: Isn't that like a fascist salute?
quote: Curiously I see nothing wrong with the original wording, except the omission of equality ... if you need a pledge ... (2) The founding fathers did not need a pledge. Pledges are needed by people that don't like independent thinking, imho. abe ... I knew this had been discussed before and a little searching found:
[qs]Message 19 of the constitutionality of using public funds to promote religion thread: This does not alter the fact that they supported a government of the people by the people for the people Read "The Christian Nation Myth" by Farrel TillThe Christian Nation Myth » Internet Infidels Note in particular that the constitutional convention voted on whether to include god in the constitution and that it was defeated. Read how Jefferson and Washington and many other founders -- specifically the ones that were the movers and shakers of creating this country -- were not christian or were christian and had no problem with a separation between government by people and religions of all stripes.[/quote] Another good read. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : abe infoby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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