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Author | Topic: Is America a Christian Nation? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22953 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
Is America a Christian Nation founded by Christians and based upon Christian principles? The Texas Board of Education thinks so, and now the Texas board is moving "to bring Jesus into American history." That quote is from an article in today's New York Times Magazine: How Christian Were the Founders?
It should come as no surprise that the same Texas Board of Education that is rewriting biology books is also rewriting American history books, and Don McLeroy is again the driving force. No longer chairman after demotion by the State Senate out of concerns over his religious views, conservatives still wield the most power over board decisions, and McLeroy appears to exert as much control over Texas educational policies and curricula as ever. This raises concerns nationwide, because as Texas goes, textbook-wise, so goes the nation. Texas approves textbooks on a statewide level, and so its large population means that textbook publishers are willing to tailor their textbooks to Texas' standards. The article doesn't explore the merits of the case that America is a Christian nation, but if there's interest I thought we could do that here in this thread. Education and Creation/Evolution would probably be the right forum. --Percy
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AdminPD Inactive Administrator |
Thread copied here from the Is America a Christian Nation? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Phat Member Posts: 18651 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 4.2
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Some would say that we are. Others would say that we are a secular nation and that this was what the founding fathers intended.
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DC85 Member (Idle past 253 days) Posts: 876 From: Richmond, Virginia USA Joined: |
Some would say that we are. Others would say that we are a secular nation and that this was what the founding fathers intended. considering a good amount of the founding fathers were deists it would not make any sense at all to call the United States a Christian Nation
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1663 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Percy,
Some comments
That quote is from an article in today's New York Times Magazine: How Christian Were the Founders? That article has a picture titled "Original Image: ‘Declaration of Independence, by John Trumbull/The Bridgeman Art Library"
Curiously, this is from the actual museum website: http://www.bridgemanart.com/...20-%20Defining%20Moments.aspx
quote: And when I search their site for {Original Image: Declaration of Independence, by John Trumbull} I get "No results found, Sorry no results were found." When I search the site for {Declaration of Independence John Trumbull} I get "Your search returned 8 images for Declaration of Independence John Trumbull" http://www.bridgemanart.com/search.aspx?key=Declaration%2... With four slightly different images, SSI 82121, XCF 22523 (seen above), XBP 344388 (which appears to be the basis for the "christ" version), and SSI 82119 (a lithograph based on SSI 82121), all showing the flags and drum. When I search the site for {John Trumbull} I get "Your search returned 45 images for john trumbull" http://www.bridgemanart.com/search.aspx?key=john%20trumbu... None of them show a christ image behind the founding fathers. And when I googled {Original Image: ‘Declaration of Independence, by John Trumbull/The Bridgeman Art Library } the only reference I found to the first picture is their site and links to it. Can someone say photoshop? Can someone say phaque? Can someone say HOAX?
It should come as no surprise that the same Texas Board of Education that is rewriting biology books is also rewriting American history books, ... Some reading for those who are interested:
The Christian Nation Myth, by Farrell Till quote: The American Enlightenment, by Richard Hookerquote: Also seePage not found quote: Those are just a few of the quotes in the article, however I picked those as they reflected the wording of the Declaration of Independence. Cato's Letters - Wikipedia
quote: Nuff said? Enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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Son Member (Idle past 4087 days) Posts: 346 From: France,Paris Joined: |
While you did a nice research you still have to remember that fondamentalists count on their target being willfully ignorant. You see creationnists being fairly good at it and no amount of evidence will convince them otherwise. I wouldn't be surprised if they shrugged off your research as an "atheist conspiracy" of some sort (without caring for the fact you are a deist).
I think those things should be taught in history though, to avoid the mass brain-washing of children .
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ZenMonkey Member (Idle past 4768 days) Posts: 428 From: Portland, OR USA Joined: |
Find the word "Jesus" or the Ten Commandments in the Constitution and then you can start to make a case.
I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die. -John Lydon
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1663 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Hi Son,
We'll see if my reply is posted http://community.nytimes.com/comments/How Christian Were the Founders? - The New York Times
quote: Moi? abusive? Or are we protecting the gullibles from the truth? There's another faux picture from the "moral" christians:
Can they really think this fools anyone with half a brain? For the real version see: http://www.bridgemanart.com/...9c2991dd549dcb98403e32aeda6c2
I think those things should be taught in history though, to avoid the mass brain-washing of children . As in the real american history? Complete with the influence of the indians on democracy? Complete Book: "FORGOTTEN FOUNDERS, Benjamin Franklin, the Iroquois and the Rationale for the American Revolution," By Bruce E. Johansen enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8654 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 6.6
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Is America a Christian nation? Like much of everything else it depends on one's point of view; from the perspective of governance or that of the society in general.
Everson v Ewing BOE is one of the first SCOTUS cases firmly stating that governance, at all levels in this nation, are and must be secular. This is the law of the land and will remain so unless the Constitution itself is scrapped. In this regard this nation is most certainly not a christian nation. As for the greater society the data show that the majority of the population in this society subscribe to some christian denomination. By this perspective this nation can be perceived as a christian nation. Note, however, that these christian beliefs appear, for a large part, to be tepid at best within the majority and are due mainly to acculturation, ascribed to more for social comfort than due to any strong personal religious belief. And with the accelerating increase in unaffiliated identifications we can expect that within this next century Christians, indeed all religionists, will find themselves in the minority in this soon to be secular society.
Source As for McLeroy and his hoard of anti-American zealots, believe it or not, even in Texas, the organs of rational society will keep his dreams of theocracy unfulfilled. But don't let that fact be widely spread. McLeroy, et al, perform a vital service to the nation by keeping us ever fearful and vigilant against his poison.
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 992 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
even in Texas, the organs of rational society will keep his dreams of theocracy unfulfilled. We hope. I'm getting loudly political for the first time in forty years over this, even to the point of voting in a Republican primary. The yahoo running against our district's Board of Education member is a creationist Bible-in-school fundy..... But we're overrun with that type here.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
The founders represented the majority of the nation's people who were likely at least 75-90 percent Protestand Christian at the time of the founding.
The founders did not establish a Christian nation perse. As substantiated by the inscriptions on the buildings and statue, etc in the government buildings and wording in the founding documents, Biblical principles were established but not Christianity perse. What the founders were particularly interested in relative to Christianity is that no denominational sect or church system was to be established such as the RCC or Anglican Church or any such thing. What they established primarily was the freedom to practice religion anywhere, be it in school, government or private sector, uninhibited. This they did and this they practiced after the documents were established. Thus no fuss was raised about praying and Bible reading in schools or anything like that. Whoever was in the majority in the school boards, in government, etc made the determination as to how much and what of anything, be it religious or whatever in the public sector.Thus, in our time, the majority supposedly representing us has spoken. Thus in Texas the people's reps have tended towards more Christianity in some areas and in places like NY etc the majority have forbid what the founders allowed in their time. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8654 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 6.6 |
Having lived in Texas for 20+ years I understand the problem. "They" are indeed everywhere.
But then there are also the ACLU - Texas, the North Texas Church of Free Thought, The First Amendment Institute of Dallas, Cato Institute Austin, The Flower Mound Rationals and a lot of people like you everywhere as well. Keep vigilant, keep free.
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BMG Member (Idle past 466 days) Posts: 357 From: Southwestern U.S. Joined:
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Whenever I hear this question, the U.S. Treaty with Tripoli resurfaces again in my head.
Source quote: quote: *Italics mine. Edited by BMG, : No reason given.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member
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Somewhat ambiguous is what exactly the term "Christian nation" means. Does it mean that the founding fathers intended on basing their government around Christianity? Does it mean that the majority of the citizens were/are Christian?
The founders represented the majority of the nation's people who were likely at least 75-90 percent Protestand Christian at the time of the founding. The majority of the Founding Fathers were deists, not Protestants. There are numerous quotes to support this.
What the founders were particularly interested in relative to Christianity is that no denominational sect or church system was to be established such as the RCC or Anglican Church or any such thing. What they established primarily was the freedom to practice religion anywhere, be it in school, government or private sector, uninhibited. This they did and this they practiced after the documents were established. Thus no fuss was raised about praying and Bible reading in schools or anything like that. In the 1950's the government placed on currency motto's like "In God We Trust." It was not always this way. And while in rural areas I have no doubt schools were teaching prayer, this was not the intention of the Founding Fathers. That much is undeniable given their own testimony and their expressed purpose of keeping civil government and religion separate. A conflict of interest arises. Where there may be no expressed religion in schools, it is certainly implied if prayer to Jesus is compulsory like a "Pledge of Allegiance." In fact, I don't agree with the pledge of allegiance either. In today's time, never before have we seen such a melting pot of culture and mishmash of religious beliefs. Therefore in the best interest of respecting each others view, isn't it advisable to simply remain neutral when it comes to religion which clearly was the intent of the Framers? Doesn't prayer in school and teaching parables about Jesus negate or invalidate the reason for churches? That doesn't mean that somebody cannot pray in school of their own accord, in my opinion. If you feel convicted to pray in school, that is your right as a citizen seems to me. What some atheists have done is manipulate or extend the intent of the Establishment Clause far beyond the Framer's intent. The intention of the Framers was never to keep God out of public life, but to keep religion and the government totally separate and to remain neutral. "Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston
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Dr Adequate Member Posts: 16113 Joined: |
What the founders were particularly interested in relative to Christianity is that no denominational sect or church system was to be established such as the RCC or Anglican Church or any such thing. What they established primarily was the freedom to practice religion anywhere, be it in school, government or private sector, uninhibited. This they did and this they practiced after the documents were established. Thus no fuss was raised about praying and Bible reading in schools or anything like that. But, my dear Buzsaw, if a school board can tell you when to pray and who to pray to and what to pray for, then you do not have freedom of religion. Maybe they do, but you don't. Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
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