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Author Topic:   Prophecy in the Bible - Theology of Double Fulfillment
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 151 of 157 (532882)
10-27-2009 4:04 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Peg
10-27-2009 3:53 AM


Re: Cohesive prophecy
Make light of it if you will, but would God want you to willingly follow deceivers ? Even to the point of "defending" their deception with false accusations ? I cannot believe that any Christian would endorse that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Peg, posted 10-27-2009 3:53 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Peg, posted 10-27-2009 5:52 AM PaulK has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 152 of 157 (532896)
10-27-2009 5:52 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by PaulK
10-27-2009 4:04 AM


Re: Cohesive prophecy
im making light of it becuase i dont want to get into any arguments.
Im not here to argue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by PaulK, posted 10-27-2009 4:04 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by PaulK, posted 10-27-2009 6:25 AM Peg has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 153 of 157 (532900)
10-27-2009 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Peg
10-27-2009 5:52 AM


Re: Cohesive prophecy
That is an odd statement, because you are certainly not here in this thread to discuss the topic. In fact you seem to be here mainly to argue against the view that Daniel can be read as referring to the period of the Maccabean revolt.
But since the whole topic is grounded in the reasons to accept a particular interpretation, I would say that your faith in the Watchtower Society - who provide the doctrines that you follow seems to be clearly related to the topic.
Now in Message 93 you claimed that you were "not bothered" by the evidence against the Watchtower Society's claims simply because you falsely accused the author of the article of being "absolutely against the idea that scriptural prophecies are true" - without examining the evidence he presented at all. Yet in the same post you suggested that we should look at ALL the evidence.
Of course, if the Watchtower Society were really guided by God, why would they have to engage in deception ? And if you believed that they were guided by God, why would you seek to cover up the evidence of their deception- in a very dishonest way - instead of - at the least - disowning the article in question ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Peg, posted 10-27-2009 5:52 AM Peg has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 154 of 157 (532994)
10-27-2009 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Peg
10-26-2009 11:51 PM


Re: Cohesive prophecy
Peg writes:
yes absolutely, the diciples/Apostles were the ones to whom Jesus said at John 14:2 "In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU."
For these christians to rule with Christ in heaven, they would have to die on earth and then be resurrected into their heavenly calling to reign with him.
Jehovah, god and father of Jesus will be the ruler/magesty of Heaven, likely with Jesus on his right hand, somewhat like Joseph was Pharoah's right hand man.
On the cross was the sign, "King Of The Jews." As well, when Jesus was asked of Pilot, who wrote the sign if he was the king of the Jews, Jesus appeared to answer in the affirmitive. Remember, it was into Jerusalem where he rode on the foal of an ass as per both the NT and the OT prophecy.
According to Daniel and other prophets, the saints/Christians will come and rule with him after the end of Gentile empires. This will be after the resurrection and gathering up to Heaven.
Peg writes:
I agree that the prophecies are most definitely about a 'restoration', however what benefit will a restored jerusalem be considering the Jews dont believe that the Messiah has been here, and considering they refused to follow the lead of the Messiah when he was here? Do you think that if Jesus presented himself again physically, they would all respond favorably?
Yes, that's correct. Revelation 1:7
scripture writes:
Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen.
The OT prophet, Zechariah fortold this centuries before the 1st advent of Jesus:
Zechariah 12:10
scripture writes:
I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.
So, yes indeed, at the 2nd advent of Jesus/messiah, the whole house of Israel will respond favorably, realizing their great mistake over the centuries of the Christian era.
Peg writes:
personally I dont beleive that would happen which is why i doubt very much that God would still attempt to make a kingdom of Priests (Exodus 19:6 And YOU yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.) out of them. Most notable is the fact that the messiah had given the prospect of becoming a 'kingdom of Priests' to the newly formed christian converts.
For sure the millennial messianic kingdom will not be as it was BC. I don't remember the references but the implication is that any of the temple activity will be more of a memorial etc rather than sin offering, Jesus having satisfied that once and for all.
Christians/i.e the church universal will have a role in the kingdom headquartered at Jerusalem. The specifics of that role is not given, nor need we know it until it happens. We can rest assured that it will be blissful.
Peg writes:
John 1:11-12 "He came to his own home, but his own people did not take him in. 12 However, as many as did receive him, to THEM he gave authority to become God’s children
There's a difference between the children/sons of God, i.e. saved Gentiles and Jews who have received Christ and the children of Israel, i.e. the nation of Israel (not inclusive in the dispensation/era/age of the church) At the resurrection and gathering up of the church/saints/Christians the church era ends and messianic era begins after wrath bowls and Armageddon.
Buzsaw writes:
The kingdom will be global in scope, however with all nations subject to messiah's Zionistic global empire centered at Jerusalem.
Peg writes:
if Jesus established a heavenly kingdom, dont you think a global rulership would work better from that vantage point? Besides that, if the purpose was always to have an earthly center government/rulership, why does anyone need to go to heaven to rule as kings? What purpose would that serve?
The earthly messianic kingdom will last a mere millenium, which is a very short time relative to eternity. Revelation 20, 21 says that after it ends, new heavens, new earth and new Jerusalem will follow.
Peg writes:
yes, but who is a 'jew'
According to Pauls understanding he said at Romans 2:28 "he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.
Paul was here saying that the person who serves God from the heart is a real Jew. And by a play on words he shows that such a one also receives praise from God for the word 'jew' means 'praise'
Also what did he say at Galatians 3:29?
"Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise"
According to God, a true Jew is one who belongs to Christ and who serves God out of love.
This language alludes to the fact that we gentile Christians via the new birth (spiritual) become grafted into Abraham's promise of God, known as the Abrahamic Covenant That refers to the saints/church. The restored nation of Israel (largely Jews) are literal Jews by birth & heritage.
Peg writes:
Buzsaw writes:
This is important relative to Daniel because both Jesus and Daniel corroborate with the other prophets that the end times/end of days would be futuristic both to Daniel and to Jesus/messiah
yes i totally agree with you on that.
Can I ask if you believe we are in the 'end times' now? or do you think they are still future?
Most assuredly! Jesus prophesed that the times of the Gentiles would be fulfilled relative to the re-occupation of Israel into the city, Jerusalem. In the 1967 Six Day War, Israel, as a nation marched into the old walled city of Jerusalem all of the way to the Temple Mount for the first time after 19 centuries of dispersion. This is the beginning of the end of Gentile empires. Thus so much upheavel and turmoil has happend in the Middle East.
Two days before that 6 day war began, an athiest friend came into my antique shop and asked who was going to win the war, the 2 million or so Jews or the 20 million or so Arabs surrounding the tiny nation. Headlines were that Nasser, prime minister of Egypt vowed Israel would be driven into the sea. Israel was armed by US and all of the enemy was armed mostly by Russia. His name was Wells. I said something like, "Wells, it may take a few months or so but Israel will most definitely win this war, based on Bible prophecy." To the world's amazement Israel pre-empted attack and obliterated the air forces and militia of several nations.
Conclusion 1: The end time of Daniel and of Jesus begins when gentile empire era ends. Things are popping world wide. The US will be reduced substantially as a world power and Islamic block of nations allied with Russia and part of Europe will become pre-emminent on the global scene, to the extent that they will invade Jerusalem. All hell ensues, so to speak. Armageddon via the 2nd advent of Jesus consumates the invasion with the hills of Israel strewn with dead bodies.
Conclusion 2: No double fulfillment of Daniel or the other messianic prophets. What we observe on the world sceen in our day relative to those prophets and of Jesus and John attest to that.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Peg, posted 10-26-2009 11:51 PM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by hERICtic, posted 02-08-2010 12:48 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4517 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 155 of 157 (546102)
02-08-2010 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Buzsaw
10-27-2009 10:57 PM


Re: Cohesive prophecy
Hi Buz.
You asked that I look at some of your previous replies in other threads, perhaps opening up a friendly debate. Since this thread concerns double fulfilment (and you have refered to it in other threads) I thought it would be best to ask here.
Can you show me scripture that states there is such a thing, from the OT?
You mentioned in the Jesus/Failure thread (I may add, not addressed to me per se):
Buzsaw writes:
This, PD, is a classic example of violation of the fundamentals of interpretation and understanding relative to Biblical eschatological/prophetical context. You and yours consistently violate those fundamentals. Astute and objective Biblical scholars studied in Biblical eschatology recognize that there were futuristic Biblical prophets, particularly relative to what is regarded as the prophecy books of OT, often aluded to in the NT as prophecy by Jesus and other writers.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If double meanings/two fold prophecies are not mentioned in the OT, how can anyone make the above claim?
Last but not least, do you know what midrash is?
Thanks.
Edited by AdminPD, : Added quote box.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Buzsaw, posted 10-27-2009 10:57 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Stephen5
Member (Idle past 5156 days)
Posts: 6
From: USA
Joined: 02-14-2010


Message 156 of 157 (546867)
02-14-2010 3:29 PM


There is no double referencing in the prophetic visions
There are similar settings, but all are different
An example would be Daniel 11:21-35 and 11:36-45
The first passage is the exact career of Antiochus IV and the second passage describes the little horn, king of the northern Middle East at the end of this present age which is still future
Both of these kings did similar things, but they are not the same kings with one existing just before the first century and the next during the 70th week decreed for Israel which is still pending
I can assist anyone with this understanding and one also needs to know the following precept:
There is a breach in the time lapse of visionary prophecy between the end of the 69th week decreed [about 33 A.D.] and the beginning of the 70th week still pending
The scope of the visions of the Bible prophets is limited in content and it does not contain any earthly events between the Lord's first and second advent
For example many attempt to place 70 A.D. within the scope, but 70 A.D. was not the time of the end forecasted by the Lord and the Bible prophets ..... the Roman invasions are simply not in the scope
Once this truth and precept is applied, much of the confusion that has been developed by selected interpretation goes away ..... the breach in the visions can be found in all visionary scripture
The prophets all project both near term [fulfilled] and long range events [still future] ..... and the interpreter must be able to discern the difference between past and future events in order to determine the correct rendering
The other limitation of the scope is that the focus is primarily upon Israel the surrounding populations of the Middle East proper, both past .... and future
Edited by Stephen5, : No reason given.
Edited by Stephen5, : No reason given.

  
anthonylau 
Suspended Junior Member (Idle past 5088 days)
Posts: 20
Joined: 04-24-2010


Message 157 of 157 (557243)
04-24-2010 12:54 AM


spam deletion
Edited by AdminAsgara, : spam deletion

  
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