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Author Topic:   Morality is a Logical Consequence of Evolution, not Creation
greyseal
Member (Idle past 3891 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 27 of 97 (544261)
01-25-2010 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
01-25-2010 6:05 AM


1- ''Empathy is the result of our intelligence''
As developped by Meldinoor, I understood it as that intelligence brought with it empathy. I would have liked to get more info of this supposed link between the two in the form of research because I feel skeptical that this is the case. Pigs are considered very intelligent, yet I don't know of it ever having any sort of empathical behavior. Same would go for crows, fish, etc.
I think it important to note that various "animals" are well-known for their empathy - dogs for an everyday example, both in responses to other dogs as well as to humans.
There are also instances where it would appear quite clearly that the animals are distressed over the death of a sibling, parent or child - the most poignant I remember was an ape whose baby died and for many days she carried the baby with her and tried to get the baby to wake up - and it was also quite clear she knew the baby wasn't sleeping.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 01-25-2010 6:05 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 01-25-2010 7:07 AM greyseal has replied

  
greyseal
Member (Idle past 3891 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 29 of 97 (544270)
01-25-2010 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
01-25-2010 7:07 AM


empathy - more than an emotional response?
I think we need to be careful about what we define as "empathy". Up til now I've been using the term fairly generally and possibly quite wrongly. I don't think our instinctive emotional response is true empathy. Feeling sad or distressed is a natural response many animals obviously have. But I think true empathy is having the ability to put yourself in someone else's mind and imagine what they are feeling (or not feeling in the case of a deceased loved one).
So, the apparent distress and emtional response of an ape for her dead offspring is not empathy, but the apparent distress and emotional response of a human for her dead offspring is?
Based on what scale? Can you verify that to me in any other way than "it's obvious" or "I don't think it is the same"?
I agree it's a really difficult question, but if humans have an instinctual emotional response, and animals a similar instinctual emotional response, and you call it empathy in a human but an automatic response in an animal, why the difference?
I'm certain that humans can do more with their thoughts and feelings - but that's not empathy. Animals can plan their escapes and forsee a future outcome based on their observations - crows and squirrels and others for example have been seen using "tools" as WE would define them.
I think this "automatic response" idea is from a starting point of "animals are less than humans" which is the modern equivalent of "animals are automata" of two hundred years ago.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 01-25-2010 7:07 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 01-25-2010 9:36 AM greyseal has replied

  
greyseal
Member (Idle past 3891 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 31 of 97 (544292)
01-25-2010 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
01-25-2010 9:36 AM


Re: empathy - more than an emotional response?
Language must have played a big role in developing the ability within humans to grasp many concepts, including the ability to consider another's point of view or emotional state. As other animals don't have our extensive language skills, they don't have the ability to generate and convey concepts to each other.
then it's about communication - unless you can tell me for sure that (for example) my dog doesn't actually understand how sad I feel about (say) my girlfriend breaking up with me, you can't know whether the dog is "empathic" or not.
I agree that other animals don't apparently have as sophisticated a method of communication as us, nor do they seem to be as able to plan for the future and modify their surroundings, but if a dog, in his own doggy way, can say "oh leader-of-my-pack-who-feeds-me, I am sad because YOU are sad" (and I agree, it's going to be hard proving things either way, except that arguably dogs "know" when their owners are sad and comfort them, so there's *something* going on in there) then despite lacking a full understanding, I would say that the dog is still empathic.
I don't think a dog can be told that his owner's friend's dog is having a mid-life crisis, no - does it have to go that far?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 01-25-2010 9:36 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

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 Message 32 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 01-25-2010 10:33 AM greyseal has not replied

  
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