|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Jesus: Why I believe He was a failure. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Brian writes: Then we have the oft discussed topic that if Jesus was born of a virgin then he is not Joseph’s son, and therefore not a descendant of David, so no Messiah. Hi Brian. The virgin happened to be betrothed to Joseph who was to become through marriage, the father of Mary's son. Genesis bears this out: Genesis 2:24:
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
(Embolding mine for emphasis.)
Brian writes: There is no mention of Jesus’ coronation in the NT or in secular sources, so Jesus lied, or the poor guy was so deluded that He actually believed that He had been crowned king of Israel. Jesus reminded his desciples betimes that he was to die for the sins of the world, that he would be resurrected and at the Mt of Olives that the times of the Gentiles would be fulfilled before he would return in the clouds, send his angels to gather up his elect before the great day of Gods wrath etc when he would come to rule and reign on earth. It's all through the OT prophets as well as the NT. Perhaps, Brian, if you would diligently and objectively study up on scripture, you would come to understand it's true message and it's value.
Brian writes: There is no record of Jesus ever being crowned king of Israel, you think that the NT, and secular sources, would have mentioned His coronation, but Jesus was never crowned king of Israel, thus He was not the Messiah. Though he was not prophesied to become king of Israel at this time, he was crowned on the cross by Pilot, the governor, over the objections of the Jews. As well, when he rode into Jerusalem on the foal of an ass as his followers hailed him as Hosannah, he fulfilled Zechariah 9:9,10, one of the scores of messianic prophecies as follows:
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass. 10And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off; and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth. Brian writes: The Messiah would also set Israel free from her oppressors, and gather the Jewish nation back to Israel. Brian writes: Isaiah 11:12 He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.Does this sound remotely like anything that Jesus achieved? Jesus failed here too because Israel was even more oppressed after Jesus’ birth arrival and death. Next up, the Messianic age would witness the rebuilding the Temple on Temple Mount. Isaiah 2:2 In the last daysthe mountain of the LORD's temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and all nations will stream to it. Jesus did not build any Temple, in fact the Temple He knew was still standing during His lifetime so this makes it even more obvious that Jesus was no Messiah. The Messiah will also bring to an end all war and establish peace on Earth. Micah 4:3 He will judge between many peoples and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. Brian writes: Where’s this peace that Jesus should have brought? Since His death we have developed weapons that can destroy the entire Earth! Once again Jesus has failed. The long and the short of it is that Jesus failed to fulfil a single messianic prophecy, and is therefore a failed preacher. Feel free to call Jesus The Messiah if you want to, but He certainly was not The Messiah promised by Yahweh in the Tanakh, to think so is simply perverse. LOL. According to the OT prophets, messiah must die for the people must have his garments parted by the soldiers, must be brutally beaten and rejected, must ride into Jerusalem on the foal of an ass, etc, etc, etc. The Jews must be scattered worldwide, Israel must become a desolate wasteland and at the time of the advent of the messianic kingdom, a ISRAEL MUST BE RESTORED, THE PEOPLE REGATHERED FROM THE NATIONS FAR AND WIDE AND ALL OF THE CORROBORATING EVIDENCE PROPHESIED MUST COME TO PASS. Read and assimilate it all. Then you will become wisely apprised on Biblical truth. Yes indeed, there are puzzling and questionable aspects of understanding it all, but it's a grave and fatal mistake for one's eternal soul to throw out the proverbial baby with the bathwater. As good scientists do with science, one must go with all of the givens and knowns of scripture in order to evaluate the obscure and unknowns. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Brian writes: And what is the legal basis for this Buzz? What is legal in our nation is not relevant to this topic. What is Biblical is what matters, since we're debating the reliablilty of the record from God's perspective who is alleged to have inspired the writing of it.
Brian writes: So you agree with me that Jesus was never crowned King of Israel or anywhere else? Of course I do, so far as his prophesied messianic kingdom on earth. If Jesus had been crowned king of Israel at his first advent, the prophecies would have failed which declared that messiah/king would first suffer and die for the sins of the world, that he would first ride into Jerusalem on the lowly foal of an ass, that he would be rejected by the Jews, that the Jews would first be scattered globally and Israel would become a desolate wilderness until the end times when they would be restored again as a nation for evermore afterwards.
Brian writes: I have studied it Buzz. I think perhaps you need to take your Jesus glasses off and study it diligently and objectively, you will be amazed how obvious it is that Jesus was no messiah. For what it's worth, I'm Buz, as in Buzsaw. My studies factor it all in, including the first advent events as depicted in both OT and NT. My studies apply all in total context.
The Messiah was prophesied to be King. There is no other prophecy, certainly no prophecy saying that the Messiah would be killed and resurrected, that’s just perverse Buzz. The more you say, the less Biblically astute you reveal yourself to be. The following are applicable exerpts of messianic prophecies relative to the suffer messiah:
Psalm 22 1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou answerest not;3 But thou art holy,4 Our fathers trusted in thee:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered:6 But I am a worm, and no man;7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn:8 Commit thyself unto Jehovah;9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb;10 I was cast upon thee from the womb;11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near;12 Many bulls have compassed me;13 They gape upon me with their mouth,14 I am poured out like water,15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd;16 For dogs have compassed me:17 I may count all my bones;18 THEY PART MY GARMENTS AMONG THEM,19 But be not thou far off, O Jehovah:20 Deliver my soul from the sword,21 Save me from the lion’s mouth; ......... For the kingdom is Jehovah’s;29 All the fat ones of the earth shall eat and worship:30 A seed shall serve him;31 They shall come and shall declare his righteousness Isaiah 52, 53:52:9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem; for Jehovah hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem. 52:10 Jehovah hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God. 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal wisely, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high. 52:14 Like as many were astonished at thee (his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men), 52:15 so shall he sprinkle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they understand. 53:1 Who hath believed our message? and to whom hath the arm of Jehovah been revealed?2 For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He was despised, and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and as one from whom men hide their face he was despised; and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and Jehovah hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who among them considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due ? 9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased Jehovah to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his'seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of Jehovah shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and'shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors: yet he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Brian writes: And your proof that Jesus rode in to Jerusalem is what exactly Buzz? I'm not here to argue proof for anything. They don't do that in the science fora either. I'm citing the evidence. Take it or leave it for or against your own eternal soul, if indeed the record is true. That's for each to determine for themselves after consideration of the evidence presented.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
1. Brian, the context reveals which scriptures apply to individuals and which applie to the nation or to Jerusalem. You should know that. Every astute Biblical scholar knows that.
2. In the texts that your long message cited, you need to itemize all of the declarations which have never yet happened to Israel. There are a number of them. By this you know that what is prophesied has not yet happened. When you corroborate these statements with other prophecies you learn that what we are witnessing on the world scene today is the restored nation. Just as the corroborated prophecies show, the restore nation will first be encompassed with hostile nations. That we are also witnesses to. According to the prophets it will come at a time when a global totalitarian government emerges. That we are witnessing. We read that in the end time it will happen. We see it happening on the world scene. This is super phenomenal to have this little nation scattered globally for nearly 20 centuries to return intact as a fully operative nation winning their wars against at least 20 to one odds. Wise and astute scholars deduce from all of this that what has been prophesied such as some of what you cited will indeed likely come to pass, just as the rest has been on track as prophesied. What you do is the smorgasboard thing of picking and choosing tidbits here and there and applying them to your Bibliophobic mindset. Until you realize this, you can't be helped and it's useless to bang heads till the cows come home trying to reason with you. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
EMA writes: I love reading much of Buzzsaws material but he dead wrong in thinking Christ is not now a King or that he does not now have a Kingdom. read Matt 16 and Acts cahpter 2. Hi EMA. Way to go, EMA, supporting Brian's notion that Jesus the Christ is a failure. LOL. If this is the best and all there is, he is indeed a failure. Are you JW (Jehovah Witness}, an alleged witness of Jehovah, or maybe SDA (7th Day Adventist), or what?
EMA writes: buz, i wanted it to be known that while you and I may have some different points of view about gods plans for Israel and the end times, I do not NOT consider you a brother in christ. i think people that are in christ can have different views on such things That's interesting, that you think one's views about prophecy is the determinate factor on one's salvation and that one's little group has the corner on Jesus's kingdom. If your relatively small group is all there is to the kingdom, then Jesus is indeed a failure. Sincerely, B u z s a w Edited by Buzsaw, : Update Message Title BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Son Goku writes: I think this is too modern a view. There was no such thing as adoption as we know it in Jewish societies back then. Rather he simply fulfilled certain Jewish requirements. Perhaps Foster child is closer, but I do not know. In any case Jesus is described as physically being of the seed of David, even in a non legal sense. Hi Son Goku. The ancient Hebrew was a language of relatively few words, much being left to text for understanding. Though there was no ancient Hebrew word for adoption, textual content implied the term. For example, according to Levitical law, the nearest of kin, usually being the eldest brother was to take the widow of a deceased kin to wife and raise the children making them essentially adopted children. An example of this would be Esther who was raised by Mordecai who I believe was her uncle. The new father, patriarch and head of the family, consequently becomes the legal father of the children. A word has been added to modern Hebrew for adoption and rabis have taken the position that the term was implied in the OT law.
Son Goku writes: Some take this to be a reference to Mary being a descendant of David, although you can argue that Jesus is not even really Mary's child. I think this comes from the phrase the son of God, which a lot of Christians seem to think means he was, in some way, the son of God and Mary or something.Rather Mary was simply the womb (I'm aware how misogynistic that sounds) which carried the incarnation of an aspect of God. In the NT, Jesus referred to himself often as both son of man and son of God. He also refered to his father, Jehovah as his god on several occasions.
ABE: This is an important point since Jesus, being the perfect innocent redeemer/scraifice for the sins of fallen mankind had to be both son of God and son of man. In one place he is referred to by Paul as the 2nd Adam i.e. the first perfect man after Adam fell, tainting all mankind with the sin nature. Son Goku writes: In any case, Jesus, being the son of God, is the most legal person to take the throne of God because David was said to be sitting on Gods Throne. Good point!
Son Goku writes: Well Jesus isn't the son of God, he is God. Or rather he is the physical/temporal aspect of one personhood of God. He's not God's son or something. Unfortunately this personhood has the name "Son", another word is λγος or logos. Son is used because it provides a human view of the relationship between this logos personhood of God with the personhood known as YHWH or the Father. In John 14 where Jesus said if you saw him, you saw the father, he also said in verse 28 of that same chapter that his father was greater than he, meaning he, in all aspects imaged God and that his spirit, the Holy Spirit was the same spirit as that of the father. I Corinthians 15:28 also sheds light on this where the apostle Paul states that in the end of the age Jesus will again become subject to the father. The father is always regarded as head and in that sense, greater than the son. Having said the above, Jesus is divine and as with the father, worthy of worship. In the NT epistle greetings God is referred to as our father and Jesus as our lord/master, since he is our head and God is his head; a chain of command, if you will. I have gone into detail on this in past threads if you care to do a search. I don't mean to lead off topic here to explain it all. Edited by Buzsaw, : Add comment BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Son Goku writes: Debates on the nature of Christ and his exact relationship to God are not easy. It absolutely dominated the early Roman period of the religion and was only settled after several councils over the span of hundreds of years. The view you take is not the one that won out in the end. I would take your statements to mean you are not Chalcedonian and hence not truly Protestant or Catholic. The view that the Father was greater than the Son is known as heteroousia, although you may know it by the name of the historical group associated with it. Namely Arianism. Anyway heteroousia is not a view held by the majority of churches. Hi Son G. What better authority than the words of Jesus himself that His father is greater than himself. In written literal NT Christology context it implies that this is the case in that the father of him is the head of him as Paul states and that they do share one spirit etc. He does not, in fact sit in 'God's place, but rather on his right hand. As Peg rightly noted, what scripture states trumps majority POV, when/if majority POV contradicts the recorded words of Jesus and his apostle Paul, etc. As for my status, I don't know how you can alledge that I am not a protestant, being that term includes literally hundreds of varied doctrinal views. Many protestant churches are non-demoninational. That said, your point is well taken that I tend to hold to unique literal doctrinal positions in some areas which go counter to the majority of protestant churches, both evangelical and mainline liberal. Nearly all who I cite the John 14 quote of Jesus which I aluded to are totallly oblivious to the fact that he said what he said regarding his status with God. He always referred to himself as either the son of God or son of man, so I refer to him as God's son as he regarded himself and Jehovah as god as he always did in reference to his father. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Debates on the nature of Christ and his exact relationship to God are not easy. It absolutely dominated the early Roman period of the religion and was only settled after several councils over the span of hundreds of years.
The view you take is not the one that won out in the end. I would take your statements to mean you are not Chalcedonian and hence not truly Protestant or Catholic. The view that the Father was greater than the Son is known as heteroousia, although you may know it by the name of the historical group associated with it. Namely Arianism. Anyway heteroousia is not a view held by the majority of churches. *any Dubliner would love that sentence
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Iblis writes: I think you have the most viable argument against the "failure" hypothesis. I have some questions though. Do you think that when he gets back, and fulfills the "Conquering King" and "Mighty Messenger" groups of prophecies, the Jews will then recognize him as their messiah? Other people might stick on the point that claiming to be God is a no-no for Judaism no matter how many prophecies one fulfills, but I don't believe you have to deal with that particular setback. Then also -- this is the rough part -- how about the Moslems? They also say that they expect him back for the End Times, to defeat the false messiah and reunite all the Abrahamic religions. Jesus will descend at the point of a white arcade, east of Damascus, dressed in yellow robes - his head anointed. He will then join the Mahdi in his war against the Dajjal. Jesus, considered in Islam as a Muslim, will abide by the Islamic teachings. Eventually, Jesus will slay the Dajjal, and then everyone from the people of the book (ahl al-kitb, referring to Jews and Christians) will believe in him. Hi Iblis. Thanks. (ABE: Peg and the rest of us holding the line debunking Brian's POV don't agree on everything, but imo, we're rendering Jesus the honor he deserves as legitimate lord and master. ) I've cited Zechariah 12:10 where in messianic context it states "they will look on him whom the pierced" (and mourn). The apostle John confirms this to be a messianic prophecy in John 19:37. Scripture clearly implies that Jews as a nation will not acknowledge him as messiah until they see him return in splendor and power to the Mt of Olives where he is prophesied to light and where he ascended. There are other numerous OT prophecies which alude to their rejection, including Psalms. Ezekiel and others who prophesied the latter day reinstatement of Israel agree that they will return in unbelief so that's exactly what we should expect. As for Islam, Mohammed screwed up the Biblical aspects of the Koran consistently, as did Joseph Smith in the book of Mormon, both using the Bible, interspersing bits and pieces of it into their own thinking so as to render their jonnycomelately distortions of scripture some legitimacy. The distorted Islamic stuff about a messianic Jesus, it's just another plug for Koranic legitimacy. The fact is that if one should go on the streets or in the mosques and preach Jesus, one's head will likely get lopped off. Allah is Islam's god and Mohammed is their prophet, the only one allowed to be proclaimed and preached. Proclaim that about Mohammed and his Koranic rendering of god, Allah and you are officially a Muslim for life or else as per Islamic law.
In practice, devout Muslims, particularly the imams would agree with Birian's hypothesis that Jesus failed and needed to be replaced by Mohammed for the folks to publically revere. Edited by Buzsaw, : Add comment Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Peg message 145 writes: you seem to have missed my answerThe prophecy you are reading comes in two parts. the first is that Davids offspring would build a temple, the 2nd is that his seed will rule on his throne indefinately Solomon was to be the builder temple, but another decendent would be the indefinitely lasting ruler of Davids throne. if you cant see that from the verse you are reading, then I cant help you. Brian writes:
I can't believe I am having to go through this!Look at part of the prophecy. When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. When David is dead his offspring will succeed him, a son that came from David's body, a biological son. This son will have the throne of his kingdom established forever. There is no other reading there as it clearly says that it is the offspring from David's body the one who succeeds David who will have the throne of his kingdom established forever. Now who is this successor to be, well we are told.... He is the one who will build a house for my Name, The house for me Name is the Temple and Solomon the son of David succeeded David, and built the Temple. Then we are told: and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. The establishment of throne of his kingdom forever is clearly speaking of the person who will build the Temple. 'AND I will....' this is the same person Peg, no amount of ducking and diving can change that, and as has already been pointed out to you there are other parts of the Bible that support this. Brian, here's where you err. Yes, Solomon was to build the temple but the throne of the temple Solomon built did not last forever. Thus one must conclude that the term throne that would last forever had a messianic conotation which corroborates with other prophets that messiah's throne would be located at the same location as that on which Solomon's temporal throne was. As per numerous other prophets, the throne of messiah would be forever.
Brian writes: There's no other person even hinted at in that passage Peg, no matter how you wish to twist things, there is only one person referred to in that passage. Oh yes there is, Brian. It's just that you, as usual, refuse to corroborate the relevant data. Your MO has consistently been to mine out quotes here and there out of at large context so as to satisfy your preconceived missconceptions. That the location of David's forever throne would be at Jerusalem and on the ancient Temple Mount is significant, relative to the phenomenal restoration of the regathering of the Jews to their homeland, Israel since 1948 when the restored nation was established. It is also significant relative to the fulfillment of prophecies such as Zechariah 12:1-3: (ASV)
The burden of the word of Jehovah concerning Israel. Thus saith Jehovah, who stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him:2 behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of reeling unto all the peoples round about, and upon Judah also shall it be in the siege against Jerusalem.3 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all the peoples; all that burden themselves with it shall be sore wounded; and all the nations of the earth shall be gathered together against it. Wake up, world, and smell the messianic Armageddon coffee! Observe the evidence, ye science minded skeptics! Edited by Buzsaw, : fix quotes BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
PD writes: The forever was contingent upon behavior. Since David's descendants didn't behave they lost the promise. That prophecy/promise ended. Contract broken.When a contract is broken the consequences then apply, we don't go back and change the nature of the contract. All corroborating messianic prophecies relative to Israel factor in the fact that they will fail, be severely punished and scattered globally, but that God will never allow them to be totally forsaken. There will remain a contingent which he will refine for the messianic kingdom nation. Just one of the many prophecies I could cite, for example is Ezekiel 33 and 34. The early chapters of Ezekiel are full of wrath and judgement proclamations from Jehovah to rebellious Israel. They are summarized in 33 and some of 34. Then in 34 we read the following: (ASV)
34:11 For thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I myself, even I, will search for my sheep, and will seek them out. 34:12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered abroad, so will I seek out my sheep; and I will deliver them out of all places whither they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day. 34:13 And I will bring them out from the peoples, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them into their own land; and I will feed them upon the mountains of Israel, by the watercourses, and in all the inhabited places of the country. 34:14 I will feed them with good pasture; and upon the mountains of the height of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie down in a good fold; and on fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel. 34:15 I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord Jehovah. 34:16 I will seek that which was lost, and will bring back that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but the fat and the strong I will destroy; I will feed them in justice. 34:23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. 34:24 And I, Jehovah, will be their God, and my servant David prince among them; I, Jehovah, have spoken it. 34:25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause evil beasts to cease out of the land; and they shall dwell securely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods. 34:26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in its season; there shall be showers of blessing. 34:27 And the tree of the field shall yield its fruit, and the earth shall yield its increase, and they shall be secure in their land; and they shall know that I am Jehovah, when I have broken the bars of their yoke, and have delivered them out of the hand of those that made bondmen of them. 34:28 And they shall no more be a prey to the nations, neither shall the beasts of the earth devour them; but they shall dwell securely, and none shall make them afraid. 34:29 And I will raise up unto them a plantation for renown, and they shall be no more consumed with famine in the land, neither bear the shame of the nations any more. 34:30 And they shall know that I, Jehovah, their God am with them, and that they, the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord Jehovah. 34:31 And ye my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord Jehovah. PD, this is just one of numerous corroborating messianic prophecies that emphatically assure Israel that there will always be a contingent which will comprise the end time messianic kingdom. This also corroborates with the Abrahamic Covenant which was reaffirmed to his son Isaac and grandson Jacob.
PD writes: The Book of Kings was supposedly written after the destruction of the temple. The writer already knew David's line wouldn't reign forever and that the temple wouldn't last forever; but the writer didn't change the contract to a heavenly one. The Books of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles were all written after the fact while in exile if not after. The Jews didn't need a messiah until after they had lost their kingdom and were exiled and oppressed. The promise made to David in the Book of Samuel has nothing to do with the messiah and is not a messianic prophecy. Even if you wanted to carry the promise forward, Peg already rendered the genealogies useless. One is through the wrong son and the second is through a cursed line. Even the promise from Israel concerning Judah doesn't fit the bill. There you go, PD supporting by Brian's MO of isolating what supports your and Brian's mindsed and ignoring the dozens of specific messianic prophecies which soundly refute your postion.
PD writes: The text does not support the idea of a heavenly throne instead of an earthly one. PD, are you paying attention to the affirmed facts refferenced? Scripture emphatically states that messianic throne and messianic kingdom will be earthly in Jerusalem and on the Temple Mount. Edited by Buzsaw, : Remove Admin notations. I was typing not knowing Admin fixed the error. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
PaulK writes: You keep saying things like this, but it is hard to see how anybody is ignoring that fact - with the possible exception of the three of you. Perhaps you would like to explain what you mean. Hi Paulk. The three of us are not ignoring that fact. The prophesied kingdom of God on earth, i.e. the messianic kingdom, i.e. the earthly setup is, nevertheless a spiritual kingdom. The Lord's Prayer, in fact, enforces my point:
Thy kingdom come; thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
PD writes: If a new promise was made and the Messiah is to be from the line of Solomon, Jesus still doesn't fit. He isn't from the bloodline of Solomon as I showed in Message 129. The adoption theory doesn't change that problem. Hi PD. Why don't you factor in all of the corroborating fulfillments relative to Jesus, such as the suffering one of Isaiah 53 -57, cited prophecy concerning his riding in Jerusalem on the foal of an ass and many more in determination on the geneologies? Sound reasons have been aired relative to the so called adoption legitimacy. He was indeed not adopted nor needed he be, as implied in text.. You need to consider the uniqueness of this birth, having an earthly father, i.e. the son of man, yet conceived by God's Holy Spirit, i.e. son of God. The Jews, in fact, refer to him as the son of the carpenter, Joseph, Joseph's other children as his brothers and sisters. Earlier, when a child, they refer to his parents as Joseph and Mary. Matthew 13:55 (ASV)
Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Judas? 13:56And his sisters, are they not all with us? BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
PD writes: Ezekiel is a new promise. What does that have to do Solomon?
It has everything to do with Jehovah's promise to David and Solomon that the throne of Israel would be established forever. We know that Solomon's throne perse would not be a forever throne. Ezekiel and other prophets clarify, if you bother to corroborate and harmonize the pertinent scriptures as I and others have done. You and Brian simply choose to ignore the word forever relative to the promise to Solomon. You should have enough sense to know that Solomon would not live forever and that so many other prophecies, including Jesus himself, emphatically declare that before the throne of the messianic kingdom would happen, Solomon's temporal temple, including his temporal throne would indeed be destroyed.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PD writes: Buzsaw writes:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PD, are you paying attention to the affirmed facts refferenced? Scripture emphatically states that messianic throne and messianic kingdom will be earthly in Jerusalem and on the Temple Mount. That's what I said. The text does not support the idea of a heavenly throne instead of an earthly one. That's not what I understood you to say, PD. You did not reference the messianic throne which was to be the eternal throne from the line of David. The messianic throne does not reference Solomon's temporal throne. It references the forever throne on earth that Jehovah promised to David and Solomon, Solomon;'s temporal throne being the imminent contemporaneous one which was to be commissioned by David and built by Solomon. Did you read carefully, all of the pertinent points posted in my message, PD? BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Brian writes: Well the promise was made to David Buz. It says that David's dynasty will last forever, and his immediate successor will be the one who builds the Temple. This is how you consistently show your ignorance on basic Bible scholarship, Brian. No credible Bible scholar would accept your POV on the Davidic Covenant here. They/we are all rational enough to know that like the Abrahamic covenant that The term, throne here in context implicates kingdom, in that all kings sit on thrones. We know in retrospect that Solomon's throne did not last forever. We also know in retrospect that the messianic prophecies of a global dispersion of the nation would come to pass and that the Jews, i.e. descendents of David would be regathered to restore the nation at a time when the new nation would be surrounded by hostile nations and the nations of the world would be gathered into the region for war. We see also in retrospect that the prophets were right on, in that these end time events would come at a time when marks and numbers would replace gold and silver for commerce, at a time of significant increase in knowledge, and at a time when a one world government would come into focus for consumation. If one rationally (I say rationally)corroborates all of this factual data, there remains no doubt as to what Jehovah meant by the term, forever, relative to what is known among Biblical eschatology scholars as the Davidic Covenant which is the focus of our debate here. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Briterican writes: Given what we know about Brian, and what we've seen of his understanding through his posts, this is an incredibly baseless accusation. Hi Briterican. I've been debating Brian a number of years more than you and likely been into the Bible long before either of you were born. If you think Brian's understanding of the Bible relative to this debate (abe: makes sense,) perhaps you could do a better job of supporting his position than he has done. You could begin with explaining how a forever throne could be limited to a contemporary era.
Tell me of a nation on Earth today that hasn't experienced a degree of global dispersion... We are all everywhere now. LOL, Briterican. Tell me of any other ethnic nation who has been scattered globally for scores of centuries and return to their own land under extreme odds and being surrounded by enemy nations armed by Russia for their destruction, all of which was prophesied centuries before they were even dispersed.
Do you honestly believe in "prophecy", and if so, how do you sleep at night knowing that "the end is nigh?" If your answer is "because I know I will be raptured" - don't you feel any remorse or sympathy for all of us poor misinformed non-believers (or perhaps believers in another faith) who will burn in eternal hellfire? I thank God for every day I have to enlighten as many others as possible in order that they too may have eternal life in Heaven. I go further than that. I send all of the hard earned $$ I can to advance Christianity, to support the persecuted and feed/clothe the poor in third world nations. I pray for the day some EvC member will publically profess conversion to Jesus Christ as lord and saviour on this board or that some EvC Christian apostate will return to the fold. Perhaps you will be the first.
Briterican writes: Buzsaw writes:
...at a time when the new nation would be surrounded by hostile nations You could pick virtually any country in Africa, and this statement would be true. Like all prophecy, it is vague enough that any number of scenarios could be described as fulfilling it. This is a strawman, in that it doesn't fit the point. Again, no enthnic (religion/race nationality) nation of people from Africa has been scattered globally to have their nation restored to a hostile region after having been prophesied to do so. As a matter of fact, the only ethinc African group to which this would apply was in 1991 thousands of Ethiopian Jews were airlifed to Israel, again,. as per the Biblical prophets.and the nations of the world would be gathered into the region for war. Gold and silver was replaced by "marks and numbers" a long time ago mate. Are the end times running a little late? Is Yahweh busy rewriting the script? LOL. Not on a global scale and not at a time when significant other corroborating events support the prophecy.
Hmmm... that describes virtually any point in time in the last several hundred years. Vague and ambiguous. Your usage of the word last here is significant in that for the last few centuries since the Reformation, knowledge has gradually escalated to the degree we are experiencing. Buzsaw writes:at a time when a one world government would come into focus for consumation. Sigh. What about the Ottoman Empire, or Rome? Don't these fit the bill? They do not fit in that the prophecy (see Revelation 13, for one example) emphatically emphasize that every nation, tribe and tongue of the planet would be obliged by this power to buy and sell with marks and numbers and to worship a speaking image (i.e. TV type technology and i.e. Islamic Shariah type law). Buzsaw writes:If one rationally (I say rationally)corroborates all of this factual data You write as though you are an educated individual. How then can you be so drawn into superstition and mysticism? Wouldn't your intelligence be more wisely used by dispensing with these fantastic notions of messianic prophecies and instead indulging in a hefty dose of reality? I have a high school diploma, 3 semesters at Bob Jones University and some USAF jet mechanic training. The rest comes from reading, googling, listening, researching, observing and above all, praying for wisdom, insite, knowledge and understanding of all things important. That's it. You might say I'm a 74 year old home schooler working to achieve the ultimate degree. Edited by Buzsaw, : add short phrase BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024