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Author Topic:   Jesus: Why I believe He was a failure.
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 46 of 427 (540370)
12-24-2009 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Brian
12-23-2009 3:15 PM


Re: Blind leading the blind
They expected a literal kingdom because thats what they were promised in the OT by Yahweh. This spiritual kingdom nonsense is just a sill apologetic to try and explain Jesus' failure. There is no scriptural evidence in the Tanakh that even hints at a spiritual kingdom or of the messiah's 'second coming', it is utterly alien to Jewish thought.
They also complained about not having a King, and told them they already had a king, Himself and he gave them the desires of thier heart.
Jesus also said that He was a king. But we know He wasn't.
its interesting how you use the scriptures as a weapon to support your own point then decry them as unreliable when it suits your purposes. How and where did you find out jesus said he was a King?
Do you remember him saying "my kingdom is NOT of this world, if it were my servants would fight" the word FIGHT implies the nature of a physical kingdom and how it is maintained.
Well, personally, I am not convinced at all by Jesus' arrest and trial narratives. Historically speaking they are a shambles and really could not hav happened in the way described. It is best to put the arrest and trial down to fictional propaganda.
Since inspiration was involved here one is completely justified in assuming that may things didnt always go according to the standards and practices that were established
Quit being blind and gullible and waken up to the fact that the spiritual kingdom is a fantasy. Jesus did not fulfil a single messianic prophecy
As i stated before brian you are responding to an apologetic in the nature of prophecy and the way prophecy has been used, for which it was never intended. As Peter says the prophets themselves searched diligently as to manner and time and nature of the person in the prophetic utterance. since the prophets were guided by direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit, it would stand to reason that the other people may have missed the ultimate message in the nature of spiritual verses physical
You should like it since both of you have a very childlike and naive understanding of the Bible. It is quite cute in a way, like the Sunday School kid who never looked at the Bible for himself, just accepted whatever they were told. In another way, of course, it is very sad that grown adults can take the Bible as a serious historical document. It is also very sad that people who claim to love the Bible never actually do it any justice by never studying it to any depth at all.
here is the sad part, you are making the same mistake and missing the point for which the Messaih and the prophecies concerning him
I cant believe any person that studies the scriptures cannot see that God always desired it to be a spiritual king and kingdom. it was always about god from finish to start.
Israel you dont need a physical king, you already have a king god said, it me. brian its always been a spiritual thing, Wake up Brian
Brian, you reasons for believing jesus was a failure are misguided do to a lack of understanding of Gods purposes even in the Old testament. therefore your contentions about jesus are nonsensical and invalid
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Brian, posted 12-23-2009 3:15 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Brian, posted 12-26-2009 11:20 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4715 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 47 of 427 (540371)
12-24-2009 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Dawn Bertot
12-24-2009 12:36 PM


Re: propaganda
saying that the jewish people killed Jesus, demonstrates alot about yourself brian.
It isn't Brian saying the Jewish people killed God; it's the Christians saying the Jewish people killed God.
If you can't even properly interpret a coherent sentence why would you believe you can interpret the schizoid Bible?
it may have very well been the case that this was a sub custom not necessary or relevant to mentionas a part of larger cerimonies.
Think of how much stuff you have to assume to make the Bible even semi-reasonable. Doesn't it bother you that your own butt is the source for most of your fact checking?
Merry Christmas every one.

The world breaks everyone, and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those it cannot break, it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these, you can be sure that it will kill you too, but there will be no special hurry.
Ernest Hemingway

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-24-2009 12:36 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-24-2009 2:08 PM lyx2no has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 48 of 427 (540373)
12-24-2009 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Dawn Bertot
12-23-2009 10:50 AM


The real Suffering Servant
The Suffering Servant mentioned in Isaiah has wrongfully been identified by certain Christians (not all) with an individual person, namely Jesus.
But, on closer inspection, we can see that Isaiah’s Suffering Servant is not an individual at all, but the personification of a remnant of Israel.
**In Judaism, Isaiah 53 is NOT viewed as a messianic prophecy.**
To understand the context of Isaiah 53 it should be noted that this is only a small part of one of four servant songs that can be found in Isaiah.
The four songs can be found in Isaiah 42:1-4, Isaiah 49:1-6, Isaiah 50:4-9, and Isaiah 52:13-53:12.
We can see that the song in which Buz and EMA and hordes of other unenlightened xians quote can be found actually at Isaiah 52:13 and ends at 53:12. So, it would be a good idea to read the entire song to understand the context of the partial quote.
Servant Song 52:13-53:12
Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

If we go back to the beginning of Isaiah 521:12, we can understand the context of the Servant songs.
Isaiah 52
Awake, awake, O Zion, clothe yourself with strength. Put on your garments of splendour, O Jerusalem, the holy city. The uncircumcised and defiled will not enter you again. Shake off your dust; rise up, sit enthroned, O Jerusalem. Free yourself from the chains on your neck, O captive Daughter of Zion.
For this is what the LORD says: "You were sold for nothing, and without money you will be redeemed." For this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
"At first my people went down to Egypt to live; lately, Assyria has oppressed them.
"And now what do I have here?" declares the LORD .
"For my people have been taken away for nothing, and those who rule them mock," declares the LORD . "And all day long my name is constantly blasphemed. Therefore my people will know my name; therefore in that day they will know that it is I who foretold it. Yes, it is I."
How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news, who proclaim peace, who bring good tidings, who proclaim salvation, who say to Zion,
"Your God reigns!"
Listen! Your watchmen lift up their voices; together they shout for joy. When the LORD returns to Zion, they will see it with their own eyes. Burst into songs of joy together, you ruins of Jerusalem, for the LORD has comforted his people, he has redeemed Jerusalem. The LORD will lay bare his holy arm in the sight of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth will see the salvation of our God.
Depart, depart, go out from there! Touch no unclean thing! Come out from it and be pure, you who carry the vessels of the LORD . But you will not leave in haste or go in flight; for the LORD will go before you, the God of Israel will be your rear guard.
This reference speaks about Israel and not an individual. Israel has been oppressed by Assyria, and sold for nothing and their rulers mock them. But God has declared that things are going to improve for the Israelites, in fact, the LORD will deliver Israel into a better future as He shows his salvation to the ends of the earth.
Keep in mind that the next line is 52:13 is the beginning of the servant song many Christians wrongly identify with Jesus. But, of course, the Hebrew texts do not have the chapter and verse divisions and this Song is still speaking of the persecution that Israel has been under, and the promise of deliverance. It does not just suddenly jump forward to speak of some future messiah, neither does it just start referring to another event, it is referring to the oppression of Israel, who is God’s servant:
Isaiah 49:3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
The ‘he’ of Isaiah 53 is a personification of Israel, it does not speak of an individual.
Look at 53:3: He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief:
What nation has been more despised and rejected throughout history than Israel? Although Jesus was said to be despised and rejected, he still was loved by many others at the same time. He was followed by huge crowds of people, people even grieved at his execution, he was NOT despised and rejected of men, there was never a time when he was rejected by all.
In 53:7: He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth. Like a lamb that is led to slaughter
This, again is obviously talking of the nation of Israel. Isaiah 52:4
Assyria has oppressed them.
‘Yet he did not open his mouth’ when being oppressed and afflicted!
Jesus hardly shut up for a minute during his alleged oppression and affliction.
In John 18:22-23 for example And when he had thus spoken, one of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, Answerest thou the high priest so? Jesus answered him, If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me?
Jesus also chattered away on the cross, so he can hardly be compared to the suffering servant.
‘Like a lamb to the slaughter’ has been likened to Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross but Israel has been described as such in Psalm 44:22 Yea, for thy sake are we killed all the day long; we are counted as sheep for the slaughter. .
Isaiah 53:9 because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
How can anyone convince themselves that Jesus had done no violence?
Matthew 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves
Jesus’ tantrum at the Temple is well-known; he certainly was violent on this occasion, so how can this be the servant of Isaiah 53?
There are other facts from Isaiah that negate the possibility that the servant is Jesus, but two facts stand out above all others. First, the servant ‘shall see his seed, and ‘he shall prolong his days’ (53:10).
The Hebrew word for ‘seed’ is ‘zera’ and always refers to children who are direct offspring, and, as we know, Jesus never had any children.
Finally, ‘he shall prolong his days’ cannot apply to Jesus as he died relatively young, in his early 30’s. Christians usually counter this by saying that Jesus is eternal, but this has problems. Firstly, how can an eternal being prolong his days to beyond eternity?
Secondly,
To begin with, the Hebrew words ya’arich yamim (long life) in this verse do not mean or refer to an eternal life which has no end, but rather a lengthening of days which eventually come to an end. These Hebrew words are therefore never applied in Tanach to anyone who is to live forever. In fact, the words ya’arich yamim appear in a number of places throughout Jewish scriptures, including Deuteronomy 17:20, Deuteronomy 25:15, Proverbs 28:16, and Ecclesiastes 8:13. In each and every verse where this phrase appears, these words refer to an extended mortal life, not an eternal one.
When the Jewish scriptures speak of an eternal resurrected life, as in Daniel 12:2, the Hebrew words used are l’chayai olam.

Therefore, read in context, it is obvious that the Suffering Servant refers to the remnants of Israel, and in no way can it be referring to Jesus or any individual at all.
My Christian friends here at EvC are not really putting up much of an effort to try an convince me that I am mistaken in my claim. It has been a bit boring actually.
What do we really have so far in the way of counter arguments?
1. There’s some vague 1st century custom of Jewish adoption that no one appears to be able to bring forth any evidence for that apparently passes blood on to a non-blood descendant.
2. We have some airy fairy spirit kingdom that Jesus is king of apparently and this somehow fulfils a prophecy of a physical kingdom.
3. We have a claim, again unsupported, that there’s some ‘double-fulfillment’ of prophecy jive going on.
4. If we suspend all our free thinking ability then there’s a chance we will see the light of Jesus.
Been a bit of a letdown so far this thread. Hopefully the Christians will up the quality of their research and post something worthwhile soon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-23-2009 10:50 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-24-2009 2:27 PM Brian has not replied
 Message 57 by Buzsaw, posted 12-24-2009 8:58 PM Brian has not replied
 Message 59 by Iblis, posted 12-24-2009 11:02 PM Brian has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 49 of 427 (540374)
12-24-2009 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by lyx2no
12-24-2009 1:47 PM


Re: propaganda
It isn't Brian saying the Jewish people killed God; it's the Christians saying the Jewish people killed God.
If you can't even properly interpret a coherent sentence why would you believe you can interpret the schizoid Bible?
I never said brian said it directly, but even a tyro in logic could see he was implying that Christians had some kind of agenda against the jewish people and he uses it like a weapon in his posts. Is the part where he implies it indirectly necessary, I doubt it.
You do the samething in your final words describing the bible as schizoid, not understanding its teaching or principles.
Do you have anything better?
Oh yeah your the fellow that interjects then leaves quickly, now i remember you.
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by lyx2no, posted 12-24-2009 1:47 PM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by lyx2no, posted 12-24-2009 4:45 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 50 of 427 (540376)
12-24-2009 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Brian
12-24-2009 2:05 PM


Re: The real Suffering Servant
Therefore, read in context, it is obvious that the Suffering Servant refers to the remnants of Israel, and in no way can it be referring to Jesus or any individual at all.
My Christian friends here at EvC are not really putting up much of an effort to try an convince me that I am mistaken in my claim. It has been a bit boring actually.
Did I ever disagree that it may be refering to Israel? it has a dual menaing. You simply do not understand the nature of Gods purposes, methods, of approach in scripture. Who would ever get out of Gen 3:15 that it refered to Christ, without the actual life of christ and further explanation by inspiration of the Holy Spirit to explain its meaning
Brian, Brian, Brian, I have repeadly explained that God not man is in charge of these matters, it is not necessary for man to know at that Present time all that was involved in the nature and reasons of prophecy, but when jesus came on the scene, for anyone paying any attention at all, would have seen that he was the fulfillment of these passages, EVEN IF THEY REFERED TO ISRAEL OR SOMEOTHER PERSON DIRECTLY. Prohecy was not meant to be an all in all of PROOF, but a beautiful expression of gods love for Israel and man in general
Did Abraham understand the He possibly meant Christ in his promises to Abraham? was it necessary for Abraham to understand all of this for God to be effective and NOT A FAILURE?
I explained that Genesis 3:15 would not have had to much direct meaning to anyone reading it at present, but it was spititual in nature refering to Christ as explained in the rest of inspiration throught he New testament
Isnt it interesting that many thousands of Jews were and STILL ARE BEING converted to Christ through use of these Old Testament Prophcies according to the New testament and history. I was just watching Jewish/Christian messianic program the other day, where the person of obvious jewish ethnic background was expliticating the scriptures, the prophecies in and from a jewish background and perspective. Since there are literally thousands OF JEWISH CHRISTIANS, you contention that Jesus was a failure falls to the ground, not to mention the gentile converts
Again anyone reading the scriptures, especially the passages where God encourages them (in the Old testament) to seek a spiritual king and kingdom, should quickly understand that he never intended for them to even be ruled by an earthly king. What God wanted for them and what they wanted were two different things usually.
Your extreme literalist approch is blinding you to the actual facts. But besides all of this you have failed to demonstrate that he was a failure
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Brian, posted 12-24-2009 2:05 PM Brian has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 51 of 427 (540380)
12-24-2009 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Dawn Bertot
12-24-2009 12:36 PM


Re: propaganda
Brian, Brian, brian, brian. But that is excally the point, you didnt support your point you only suggested that it may have not been a custom as suggested by the gospels.
A long established custom that is not supported in ANY external source and is very doubtful by just using common sense.
As a matter a fact you did point to a custom much like our president going out of office in a sense, that allows pardons.
Yes, and this is nothing like what the Gospels claim.
it may have very well been the case that this was a sub custom not necessary or relevant to mentionas a part of larger cerimonies.
So even more of this ‘it may have been’ or ‘we do not have evidence for yet’, or’ just because there’s no evidence doesn’t mean it didn’t happen’ excuses.
Do you realise that all these if and buts and maybes that you and other xians trot out simply strengthens my position. There’s tons of evidence, strong evidence against Jesus being the messiah, and what is the evidence for it? Wishful thinking that’s about all. Stuff like unknown adoption laws and invisible kingdoms do not support Jesus claims.
You can have Jesus as a messiah, but don’t confuse Him with the Messiah of the OT, He clearly wasn’t.
As is always the case with the scriptures, they are usually substantiated at some point, maybe someday on this very issue, with regaurd to this custom.
But the thing is EMA what you have swallowed hook, line and sinker about the Bible being substantiated at some point is actually the complete opposite of the truth.
I’ll stick my neck out here and say that roughly 95% of the archeological evidence unearthed in the last 100 years actually undermines the Bible.
The enslavement in Egypt — disproven.
The Exodus — disproven.
The Desert Sojourn — disproven
Conquest of Canaan — Disproven
United kingdom of David — disproven.
The list goes on and on and on.
besides this you are making the worst assumption in indicating that the gospels are not a reliable source in relating this custom.
The Gospels are not really reliable at all EMA, certainly not reliable for reconstructing an accurate past.
I suppose we all study the Bible in different ways. Some of us want to discover the truth about it, others are scared from the truth and study it as if it is some magical document, come into the light EMA
saying that the jewish people killed Jesus, demonstrates alot about yourself brian. its almost as if you wish to create prejudice before you even get started.
For the love of God EMA the NT blames the Jews for killing Jesus. Stop being so ignorant.
Prove? I doubt it as I have indicated. What will be your attitude if one day a piece of evidence surfaces to support this as it is mentioned in the scriptures, will you then convert to belief in the scriptures as the word of God or accurate overall, I doubt it
Prove is the wrong word I agree. Highly implausible is better.
Here’s a question, try and answer it honestly.
How likely is it that the Barabbas episode was an actual historical event?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-24-2009 12:36 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-24-2009 3:31 PM Brian has not replied
 Message 53 by Iblis, posted 12-24-2009 4:01 PM Brian has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 52 of 427 (540388)
12-24-2009 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Brian
12-24-2009 2:47 PM


Re: propaganda
A long established custom that is not supported in ANY external source and is very doubtful by just using common sense.
Thats the point Brian, so much of the NTs history is fact, there is no reason to consider this as unreliable. there are many things in history we dont even bother to question as reliable, but consider them as plusible because they are attached to reliable facts.
Your elimination of inspiration and divine guidance in these matters only weakens your case.
So even more of this ‘it may have been’ or ‘we do not have evidence for yet’, or’ just because there’s no evidence doesn’t mean it didn’t happen’ excuses.
Do you realise that all these if and buts and maybes that you and other xians trot out simply strengthens my position. There’s tons of evidence, strong evidence against Jesus being the messiah, and what is the evidence for it? Wishful thinking that’s about all. Stuff like unknown adoption laws and invisible kingdoms do not support Jesus claims.
You can have Jesus as a messiah, but don’t confuse Him with the Messiah of the OT, He clearly wasn’t.
Comical, you move from the prophecies, to which I have now demonstrated are very resonable as a fulfillment by christ to some isolated incident to try and demonstrate christ was a failure.
Brian, unknown this or that in refernce to isolated laws customs habits and practices and a COMPLETE MISUNDERSTANDING of the INVISIBLE KINGDOM AS YOU PUT it, dont add up to the scriptures as unreliable and jesus as a failure.
You have not even began to demonstrate from any internal perspective that Christ was not a king and that he did not and still does have a kingdom. Your perspective is from a misguided apologetic
Answer this very simple question. its it possible you, like others have missed the meaning and purposes of the prophecies and that they can have a spiritual and dual meaning if Gods purposes and intentions are what matter ultimately? example, please explain what the author meant and who he was talking about in Gen 3:15
how can anyone reading the scriptures not see and get a spiritual meaning in just about anything in both the Old and New Testaments
But the thing is EMA what you have swallowed hook, line and sinker about the Bible being substantiated at some point is actually the complete opposite of the truth.
I’ll stick my neck out here and say that roughly 95% of the archeological evidence unearthed in the last 100 years actually undermines the Bible.
The enslavement in Egypt — disproven.
The Exodus — disproven.
The Desert Sojourn — disproven
Conquest of Canaan — Disproven
United kingdom of David — disproven.
The list goes on and on and on.
And you have bought hook line and sinker that these things have been demonstrated as absolutley false. you and I can trout out author after author that will provide evidence or what seems to be evidence in the opposite direction, your evidence will sway you and mine will go ok thats plausible. for example the number usage principle that was employed in the number of people that left Egypt and wandered throught the desert. Ive been there and done all of that, none of it demonstrates Jesus as a failure or the bible as unreliable
here is another comical point. with one breath you use the Old testament like a skilled weapon (ignorantly though, considering your understanding of prophecy) to try and disprove Christ. Yet you pick and choose out of it, things that are in question and use as proof the same source to explain what the author meant and you you do this with the utmost confidence that the author must be saying and talking about what you are suggesing and that your interpretation must be the authors and hardly believe that that author was the author or that the book from which it is taken is even reliable. Yet you are CONFIDENT THAT YOUR INTERPRETATION MUST BE THE CORRECT ONE Now thats some strange logic
For the love of God EMA the NT blames the Jews for killing Jesus. Stop being so ignorant.
do you actually pay attention to any arguments and statements people make or do you continue to ramble on with your own points. obviously when the NT says jews it doesnt mean ALLLLLLLL jews. Jesus was jew, his followeres were Jews, his relations were jews, the people that did not want him crucified were Jews, the people that were converted to him before he was crucified were jews and the list goes on and on.
Any tyro in logic should be able to deduce that a certain number of people of that ethnic background desired him dead, for whatever reasons. Even thought it is not stated directly we may say that a bunch of Italians, including those that particapated were also responsible for his death. the term Jews when applied to this incident does not mean all jews, simply that they as a people rejected gods plan for his people. brian you can stop being the drama queen on this point at any point
I suppose we all study the Bible in different ways. Some of us want to discover the truth about it, others are scared from the truth and study it as if it is some magical document, come into the light EMA
Ahhhh and herein lies the real problem, I knew it would manifest its ugly head at some point. Its not about History, its not about facts, it not about archeology, its not about reliability. do you remember in a previous discussion with me you stated that it doesnt matter if every single point of the bible could be verified, it wouldnt prove that it was from God. ahhhh therein lies the problem.
but its not a magical document its a spiritual document for spiritual purposes. You will never see the meaning behind it looking at it from a strickly, notice I said strickly a clinical standpoint.
as Iam teaching people sometimes I tell them there are atheists not because there are not good and valid reasons for bel;ieving in him, its simply that they cannot wrap thier mind around a being without beginning or end. this blocks thier mind from any possible solution to the delimma. atleast it did for bertrand russel.
In the same way its not really about whether things in the scriptures can be verified, its about a total lack of willingness to believe in the Spirit world or God himself, thats drives the controversy and it is the real barrier
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Brian, posted 12-24-2009 2:47 PM Brian has not replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 53 of 427 (540392)
12-24-2009 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Brian
12-24-2009 2:47 PM


Re: propaganda
How likely is it that the Barabbas episode was an actual historical event?
The whole story dissolves when you look at it with a tiny amount of common sense and even the slightest understanding of Aramaic.
When there is an event of political/social significance, we normally see protestors don't we? And they are never just on one side. One group is shouting "Free Willie! Save the Whales!" while the other group shouts "Native rights! Blubber is our culture!" Go down to an abortion clinic or a pseudo-town-hall-meeting and see for yourself.
Now, when we look at the name Barabbas we find that bar Abba means "son of the Father". Obviously, in Mark's source (traditionally the sermons of Peter) one side demands that myth-boy be released to them, while the other side wants him crucified. The evangelist is writing for a Gentile audience though, under imperial rule, so he needs to take every step he can to absolve the legitimate government from accusations.
In order to do this, he has to make the audience unanimous, show them as somehow pressuring the procurator into doing what they want. This is totally out of character for Pilate, but that can be blurred by exploiting the fact that he is known to do things on a whim. The trick is to make Jesus and "the son of the Father" into two different people, and suggest that Pilate will only release one of them.
This becomes even clearer when we look at some of the earliest variants, such as the Matthew version in the Aramaic in the Peshitta and the Caesarean text-types in Greek
NETBIBLE Matthew 27:16 writes:
At that time they had in custody a notorious prisoner named Jesus Barabbas.
What are the odds of Pilate having two separate prisoners, one known as Jesus son of God and the other called Jesus son of the Father; at the one time in history and legend where he is reported to have done what the Jews wanted without at least killing a thousand or so to make them know who's boss first; and killing the guy he liked and respected because they wanted him to release the robber/seditonist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Brian, posted 12-24-2009 2:47 PM Brian has not replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4715 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 54 of 427 (540399)
12-24-2009 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Dawn Bertot
12-24-2009 2:08 PM


Re: propaganda
EMA writes:
I never said brian said it directly
when EMA writes:
saying that the jewish people killed Jesus, demonstrates alot about yourself brian.
If it wasn't Brian saying it directly, how does it demonstrate anything, yet alone a lot, about Brian himself? That's another one of those behind the scenes fact checks where you took the behind literally.
but even a tyro in logic could see he was implying that Christians had some kind of agenda against the jewish people
He didn't imply it, he said it.
Brian writes:
We all know the horrific atrocities that the Jewish people have suffered because they ‘killed’ God
Jews killing the Christ has been used as an excuse to murder them and kick them out of half the countries in Euroupe, half the colleges in America and other atrocities. Don't you, like, read much?
and he uses it like a weapon in his posts.
And if anything Brian was letting them off the hook to some degree.
Brian writes:
but I do not think for one minute that the evangelists realised what far reaching consequences their propaganda would have for the Jewish people.
You do the samething in your final words describing the bible as schizoid, not understanding its teaching or principles.
You're right I wouldn't understand the teachings or principles of the Bible have attended Catholic schools for the last 10 years because they keep making up excuses for the Schizoid God too.
Oh yeah your the fellow that interjects then leaves quickly, now i remember you.
I get a lot more complaints because I won't go away then I do for hit-and-run so I'll guess I'm just about right.

The world breaks everyone, and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those it cannot break, it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these, you can be sure that it will kill you too, but there will be no special hurry.
Ernest Hemingway

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-24-2009 2:08 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-24-2009 8:04 PM lyx2no has not replied
 Message 60 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-25-2009 12:10 AM lyx2no has not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 55 of 427 (540414)
12-24-2009 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by PaulK
12-24-2009 4:59 AM


So what you are saying is that you can look at the Gospels, find some similarity with an OT text and then CLAIM that the older text is a prophecy - without any basis in the OT text at all. What's more you don't even acknowledge that this claim can be challenged.
Well that may work for you and others who need to shore up their belief that Jesus actually fulfilled prophecy. But from a rational perspective it simply doesn't work. It's not something that would be found by an honest and objective study of the Bible. The fact that you need to do it at all just emphasises Brian's point.
No Im NOT saying anything, the gospel writers made these claims not myself. you can see the difference between me saying something and the gospel writers saying something correct, if not Ill slow down and say it in a much simpler way if thats possible.
By me and others I expect you dont mean the gospel writers correct? besides this you can challenge anything you wish. You do realize that I and brian have been debating this issue and we have been responding to eachohters arguments correct? That would constitute him challenging my points of view.
just a quick question here did you have anything of real value to add here or were just being silly. I sure hope it was deliberate sillness. If not, uh oh.
From what rational perspective does this seem not to work. I assume your a bible scholar like Brian correct?
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by PaulK, posted 12-24-2009 4:59 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by PaulK, posted 12-25-2009 3:39 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(1)
Message 56 of 427 (540415)
12-24-2009 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by lyx2no
12-24-2009 4:45 PM


Re: propaganda
Jews killing the Christ has been used as an excuse to murder them and kick them out of half the countries in Euroupe, half the colleges in America and other atrocities. Don't you, like, read much?
I only need to read the bible to know that these actions are in violation of christs teachings
where did jesus tell anyone to do this, if I am not mistaken he said, Father forgive them for they know not what they do. trying to confuse what people choose to do aside from Christs simply teachings has led to much misunderstanding about Christianity. My guess is that its the same sort of misunderstanding like that of the misguided apologetic, meanings and purposes of prophecy
You're right I wouldn't understand the teachings or principles of the Bible have attended Catholic schools for the last 10 years because they keep making up excuses for the Schizoid God too.
Then just read the bible, then see if it corresponds to what someone teaches
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by lyx2no, posted 12-24-2009 4:45 PM lyx2no has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 427 (540416)
12-24-2009 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Brian
12-24-2009 2:05 PM


Re: The real Suffering Servant
1. Brian, the context reveals which scriptures apply to individuals and which applie to the nation or to Jerusalem. You should know that. Every astute Biblical scholar knows that.
2. In the texts that your long message cited, you need to itemize all of the declarations which have never yet happened to Israel. There are a number of them. By this you know that what is prophesied has not yet happened. When you corroborate these statements with other prophecies you learn that what we are witnessing on the world scene today is the restored nation. Just as the corroborated prophecies show, the restore nation will first be encompassed with hostile nations. That we are also witnesses to. According to the prophets it will come at a time when a global totalitarian government emerges. That we are witnessing.
We read that in the end time it will happen. We see it happening on the world scene. This is super phenomenal to have this little nation scattered globally for nearly 20 centuries to return intact as a fully operative nation winning their wars against at least 20 to one odds. Wise and astute scholars deduce from all of this that what has been prophesied such as some of what you cited will indeed likely come to pass, just as the rest has been on track as prophesied.
What you do is the smorgasboard thing of picking and choosing tidbits here and there and applying them to your Bibliophobic mindset. Until you realize this, you can't be helped and it's useless to bang heads till the cows come home trying to reason with you.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Brian, posted 12-24-2009 2:05 PM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-24-2009 10:47 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 114 by Iblis, posted 01-02-2010 8:09 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 58 of 427 (540420)
12-24-2009 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Buzsaw
12-24-2009 8:58 PM


Re: The real Suffering Servant
EAM writes:
I love reading much of Buzzsaws material but he dead wrong in thinking Christ is not now a King or that he does not now have a Kingdom. read Matt 16 and Acts cahpter 2.
Brian writes:
You'll also find that Buz is mistaken 99% of the time so don't be too concerned.
buz, i wanted it to be known that while you and I may have some different points of view about gods plans for Israel and the end times, I do not NOT consider you a brother in christ. i think people that are in christ can have different views on such things
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Buzsaw, posted 12-24-2009 8:58 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Buzsaw, posted 12-25-2009 10:00 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 59 of 427 (540421)
12-24-2009 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Brian
12-24-2009 2:05 PM


Re: The real Suffering Servant
We have a claim, again unsupported, that there’s some ‘double-fulfillment’ of prophecy jive going on.
Oh, it's much worse than that. One of the scriptures being used as toilet-paper in this argument is Genesis 3:15. The claim is being advanced that it would have made no sense at all to the original audience, and therefore must be construed as somehow referring to Jesus. This is plain nonsense, any mature adult with the slightest understanding of Hebrew figurative language knows exactly what is being described in this passage.
It isn't even so much allegory as light euphemism. The archetypal Man and Woman have just had their first experience with the sexual act, the "forbidden fruit" which is the source of adult rights and responsibilities (the knowledge of good and evil.) The first consequence is immediate physical soreness. The "serpent" (male sexual organ), which had stood surprisingly upright, now droops down and its head is bruised from the breaking of the hymen, which also results in the female sexual organ ("heel") being wounded, ie shedding blood.
This is confirmed by the consequences which follow. The Woman will bear a child, which is a painful and unpleasant process. Bringing children into the world and the responsibility that entails affects not only the mother but also the Man, who must work hard for the rest of his life to care for his offspring.
Genesis 3:15 is not referenced as referring to the Messiah at any point in the New Testament. This even though Matthew and Hebrews go to any lengths available to twist every Old Testament prophecy they can around to serve this purpose. It simply won't work even for them, as it would be like trying to claim that the phrase "the birds and the bees" is a prophecy of the future establishment of Israel as a modern state in 1948. And the New Testament audience isn't that naive....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Brian, posted 12-24-2009 2:05 PM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-25-2009 12:29 AM Iblis has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 60 of 427 (540425)
12-25-2009 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by lyx2no
12-24-2009 4:45 PM


Re: propaganda
I get a lot more complaints because I won't go away then I do for hit-and-run so I'll guess I'm just about right.
We wish you a merry Christmas, we wish you a merry x-mas, weeeee wish youuuu a merrrry Christmas and a happy New year
EAM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by lyx2no, posted 12-24-2009 4:45 PM lyx2no has not replied

  
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