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Author
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Topic: The problem with creationism and god
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Blzebub 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5261 days) Posts: 129 Joined: 10-10-2009
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Message 1 of 109 (531410)
10-17-2009 3:57 PM
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Creationists (and I include "Intelligent Design" advocates) observe all the diverse wonders of the natural world, and say "This is all so complex and wonderful, it can't possibly be due to random chance, therefore a god or a designer must have made it." Plus, we've got a book where it says that that is actually what happened. Problem solved! Science is pointless. The assumption behind this belief is that any extremely complex "product" must have a more intelligent (and/or more complex) designer than the product itself. This fits in with our human perspective of the world around us. Jumbo jets don't come into existence on their own, do they? No, they have been designed by clever humans. If you accept that complex products - living things for example - must always have a more complex designer, the immediate problem which arises is that the designer-god which made the Universe must therefore have a more intelligent or complex designer than itself. A "supergod" is needed to design the original god. So this line of reasoning leads to an infinite regress of gods, each one more complex than the one which it designed, and so on. That can't be right, surely? Even creationists don't believe that. So, er, what's the answer? Edited by Blzebub, : typo
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Blzebub
Suspended Member (Idle past 5261 days) Posts: 129 Joined: 10-10-2009
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Message 9 of 109 (531543)
10-18-2009 2:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 8 by Fallen
10-18-2009 1:56 PM
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Out of curiosity, who are these infamous ID advocates who believe the world is to complex not to be designed? I've heard so much about them from the evolutionist side, but I've yet to find that claim in the ID literature. Does anyone have a reference I can look up? The "Intelligent Design" hypothesis is argued from two main precepts. These are "irreducible complexity" and "specified complexity". A Google search using those terms will bring up a lot of amusing links. Here's one to get you started: Irreducible Complexity and Michael Behe on Intelligent Design
In 1996, the Free Press published a book by Lehigh University biochemist and intelligent design advocate Michael Behe called Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution. The book's central thesis is that many biological systems are "irreducibly complex" at the molecular level. Behe gives the following definition of irreducible complexity: By irreducibly complex I mean a single system composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning. An irreducibly complex system cannot be produced directly (that is, by continuously improving the initial function, which continues to work by the same mechanism) by slight, successive modifications of a precursor system, because any precursor to an irreducibly complex system that is missing a part is by definition nonfunctional. An irreducibly complex biological system, if there is such a thing, would be a powerful challenge to Darwinian evolution.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by Fallen, posted 10-18-2009 1:56 PM | | Fallen has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 10 by Fallen, posted 10-18-2009 2:33 PM | | Blzebub has replied |
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Blzebub
Suspended Member (Idle past 5261 days) Posts: 129 Joined: 10-10-2009
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Message 11 of 109 (531547)
10-18-2009 2:58 PM
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Reply to: Message 10 by Fallen
10-18-2009 2:33 PM
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I am actually quite familiar with both of those arguments, but neither of them are the brute appeal to complexity that you described in your opening post. Specified complexity and irreducible complexity are both attempts to identify the sorts of complexity that can be exclusively associated with intelligent involvement. Intelligent design advocates using these methods of design detection do not claim that complexity, by itself, is evidence of intelligent involvement, even if a vast amount is present. That is why the modifiers irreducible and specified are attached. The fact that the two main plinths of "ID" ("specified complexity" and "irreducible complexity") both contain the word "complexity" doesn't persuade you that "complexity" seems a tad important in the wonderful world of "ID"? Oh well. Black is white, I guess.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 10 by Fallen, posted 10-18-2009 2:33 PM | | Fallen has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 12 by Fallen, posted 10-18-2009 3:27 PM | | Blzebub has replied |
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Blzebub
Suspended Member (Idle past 5261 days) Posts: 129 Joined: 10-10-2009
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Message 13 of 109 (531557)
10-18-2009 4:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 12 by Fallen
10-18-2009 3:27 PM
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There is a massive difference between claiming that a particular kind of complexity indicates intelligence and the claim that complexity alone indicates intelligence. Of course complexity is an important concept for intelligent design advocates. But there is much, much more to intelligent design than simply appealing to complexity. Fascinating. In "ID" circles, is the putative "designer" thought to contain irreducible or specific complexity itself, or is it a more "simple" entity?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 12 by Fallen, posted 10-18-2009 3:27 PM | | Fallen has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 15 by Fallen, posted 10-19-2009 8:11 PM | | Blzebub has replied |
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Blzebub
Suspended Member (Idle past 5261 days) Posts: 129 Joined: 10-10-2009
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Message 16 of 109 (531888)
10-20-2009 11:11 AM
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Reply to: Message 15 by Fallen
10-19-2009 8:11 PM
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Unfortunately, the evidence doesn't give us an answer to that question. I sympathise. There is, of course, no evidence at all to support the notion of an intelligent designer. All the evidence points the other way.
Design detection methods try to find the barrier between objects that can be created by natural processes and objects that can only be put together by an intelligent agent making choices. This putative and allegedly "intelligent" designer has made some very unexpected choices. Why don't aquatic mammals, such as whales and dolphins, have gills instead of lungs? Gills are far better than lungs at exchanging oxygen for carbon dioxide in a maritime environment. [The answer, of course, begins with a large "E"].
Because literally all intelligent agents can make choices, all we can say is that an intelligence of some kind was involved. Saying it doesn't make it come true, sadly.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by Fallen, posted 10-19-2009 8:11 PM | | Fallen has not replied |
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Blzebub
Suspended Member (Idle past 5261 days) Posts: 129 Joined: 10-10-2009
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Message 19 of 109 (535891)
11-18-2009 3:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 18 by Edmund352
11-18-2009 3:28 PM
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How can something be too complex to have a designer, God is allpowerful and he could have created the Earth in a second. Durrrrr. Who created god, then?
Sorry about my layout and not really sticking to the topic. I'm new so i hope my next post will be better =) Me too.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 18 by Edmund352, posted 11-18-2009 3:28 PM | | Edmund352 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 20 by Edmund352, posted 11-18-2009 4:20 PM | | Blzebub has replied |
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Blzebub
Suspended Member (Idle past 5261 days) Posts: 129 Joined: 10-10-2009
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Message 21 of 109 (535900)
11-18-2009 4:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 20 by Edmund352
11-18-2009 4:20 PM
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LOL. So the universe requires a creator, but god doesn't? A double-standard, if ever I saw one.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 20 by Edmund352, posted 11-18-2009 4:20 PM | | Edmund352 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 22 by Edmund352, posted 11-18-2009 4:28 PM | | Blzebub has replied |
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Blzebub
Suspended Member (Idle past 5261 days) Posts: 129 Joined: 10-10-2009
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Message 23 of 109 (535903)
11-18-2009 4:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 22 by Edmund352
11-18-2009 4:28 PM
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'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. Wow. This god seems pretty keen to defend his patch. The bad news is that there are any number of other gods beside this one!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 22 by Edmund352, posted 11-18-2009 4:28 PM | | Edmund352 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 26 by Edmund352, posted 11-18-2009 4:45 PM | | Blzebub has replied |
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Blzebub
Suspended Member (Idle past 5261 days) Posts: 129 Joined: 10-10-2009
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Message 27 of 109 (535908)
11-18-2009 4:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 25 by Edmund352
11-18-2009 4:41 PM
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Re: Easy Target Alert
Your god isn't as perfect as Horus, nowhere near as good as Thor, and not a patch on Zeus.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 25 by Edmund352, posted 11-18-2009 4:41 PM | | Edmund352 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 28 by Edmund352, posted 11-18-2009 4:50 PM | | Blzebub has replied |
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Blzebub
Suspended Member (Idle past 5261 days) Posts: 129 Joined: 10-10-2009
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Message 29 of 109 (535911)
11-18-2009 4:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 26 by Edmund352
11-18-2009 4:45 PM
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the Christian story just slightly modified Actually, the christian story contains elements of many preceding religions.
do you believe in any kind of God? Yes, I believe in the flying spaghetti monster.
You think you are born, you live and you die? Yes. But the really great news is that after you die, there's a beer fountain with strippers.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 26 by Edmund352, posted 11-18-2009 4:45 PM | | Edmund352 has not replied |
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Blzebub
Suspended Member (Idle past 5261 days) Posts: 129 Joined: 10-10-2009
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Message 30 of 109 (535912)
11-18-2009 4:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 28 by Edmund352
11-18-2009 4:50 PM
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Re: Easy Target Alert
can you be serious? Zeus Horus and Thor acted just like humans In what way did they act like humans?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 28 by Edmund352, posted 11-18-2009 4:50 PM | | Edmund352 has not replied |
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Blzebub
Suspended Member (Idle past 5261 days) Posts: 129 Joined: 10-10-2009
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Message 31 of 109 (535914)
11-18-2009 4:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 25 by Edmund352
11-18-2009 4:41 PM
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Re: Easy Target Alert
you tell me how an irreducibly complex system comes into being. There's no such thing as an irreducibly complex system.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 25 by Edmund352, posted 11-18-2009 4:41 PM | | Edmund352 has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 33 by AdminNosy, posted 11-18-2009 5:05 PM | | Blzebub has replied |
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Blzebub
Suspended Member (Idle past 5261 days) Posts: 129 Joined: 10-10-2009
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Message 34 of 109 (535920)
11-18-2009 5:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 33 by AdminNosy
11-18-2009 5:05 PM
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Re: Topic
There are irreducibly complex systems. No there are not.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 33 by AdminNosy, posted 11-18-2009 5:05 PM | | AdminNosy has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 36 by greyseal, posted 11-19-2009 3:45 AM | | Blzebub has not replied |
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