Spiritual Death is Not Biblical

I walked through your expounding of the Genesis 3 and still see no lie from God.1.) If we assume that "the day" means that very solar period of say our typical 24 hours, in light of the whole revelation of the Bible Adam could die thought still be breathing. Part of his being died.2.) It probably will be complained that the writer of Genesis HAD to have meant physical death. My objection is that the writer of Genesis had only to record faithfully what was SAID and what happened. And if the same God latter reveals in SCripture that there is a spiritual death, the fact that Moses may not have not known this as he was writing has no effect on that.3.) The tree of life God warns was powerful enough to keep man to live forever. But Adam was forbidden to have it. So the prediction that Adam would die was not negated by any potentiality.What COULD have been does not change what happened and what God predicted.So I see no lie on God's part whatsoever.The main contention with some is that it is not fair that "to die" could not be limited to the heart stopping on that day he ate. (Taking that "day" there should not be another application of the Hebrew word).Some skeptics would say "It is not fair that death should mean spiritual death in Genesis 3."I don't agree at all. The eventual physical death could commence with death setting in to another part of Adam's being and spreading its enfluence. In God's eyes he died or began to die the moment he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.Arguing that Moses wouldn't have meant that is beside the point. Moses only needed to be faithful to what was said and what happened.

You mean it'd be like saying: "On the day you build your timberframed home on a nest of termites your house will surely collapse"?

Besides not giving me a definition of spiritual death, you provided no evidence that the plain text is speaking of spiritual death.

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The concept of man being spiritually dead cannot be denied from the New Testament.

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The NT is a later concept than the OT. If you feel it is there, then show it in the simple reading of the text.You haven't shown that "let the dead bury their own dead" refers to spiritual death and not a creative way to say that physically following Jesus took precedence over all social obligations. Jesus was replying to someone who wanted to also physically follow him. Show me that everyone who believed in Jesus' ministry was required to physically follow him.You haven't shown that the plain text in Ephesians 4:18 is speaking of spiritual death instead of right and wrong behavior.This is a science forum and this thread is about looking at the simple reading of the text. If you are unable to do that, then there is no reason to continue.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

That analogy is not bad. The curious thing is that God above all should know what is life and death. He is the uncreated eternal life and the source of all lives.That we would assume He's in need of education from us about the matter to is ridiculous.When He says "You will surely die" I think it needs to be heeded.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The concept of a spiritual death is not altogether absent from the Torah - the first five books of Moses. For my purposes I will define spiritual death in the Torah as being under God's judgment because of iniquity towards God. The concept is not as fully developed as in the New Testament.We could consider two passages in the Torah which very well may indicate dead to refer to being under God's judgment, thus separated from divine care and blessing: Here the Egyptians under the plagues of Jehovah God realize the divine punishments are to them a kind of death. "We are all dead men," means they are cut off, separated from well being, fortune, the blessings of the God of the Hebrews because of their national sins against the Jews and the obstinance of their Pharoah. This too could be understood as a man being under the judgment of God and separated from well-being, condemned, headed for punishment for the spiritual and moral iniquity against God.In both cases the deadness is do to being out of favor with the God of all blessing. God is a spiritual being in the Torah. So to being out of favor or under His judgment as in these two cases was a kind of spiritual death. In both cases it could culminate in a physical death if there were not repentence toweard God.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

In Genesis 2:17, this (ASV): This verse clearly implies spiritual death, for the record states that Adam lived physically for centuries after he and his wife ate of the tree.Spiritual death renders one unable to commune with God aside from an intercessor/priest and sin sacrifice. Thus the Levitical priesthood and temple worship etc. As well, thus the death of Jesus on the cross, the innocent one having inherrant eternal spiritual life.By the same token, thus the necessity of the spiritual birth as per Jesus's message to Nicodemus in John 3:3 through 3:7 as follows (ASV): (embolding mine for emphasis)Conclusion: That sinful mankind must be born anew spiritually clearly implies that at some point mankind became inherantly spiritually dead, requiring redemption/spiritual renewal, via sacrifical death of the christ/messiah/saviour of the world, Jesus who died once and for all for the sins of mankind.This is why nobody will ever see the Kingdom of God or the bliss of Heaven aside from spiritual renewal which the KJ version alludes to as the new birth/"born again" This is effected as one receives Jesus as savior as per John 1:12 which means on receives the spirit of Jesus, the Holy Spirit which is the multipresent spirit of Jesus, his father, Jehovah, and the self same spirit that effects the renewal/new birth of Christians at the time of conversion.The purpose the Holy of Holies of the temple where the priest was to go in once yearly to sprinkle the sacrificial blood on the alter was to cover the sins of the penitent until the ultimate sacrifice of the lamb of God, Jesus. Thus at the death of Jesus on the cross the thick sturdy veil that kept all out of the Holy of Holies was torn from top to bottom, ripping it open, ending the temple worship and Levitical priesthood. That the holy place was torn from the top means God himself tore it down.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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For my purposes I will define spiritual death in the Torah as being under God's judgment because of iniquity towards God.

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Are you giving the actual definition of Spiritual Death or just how you personally associate spiritual death with the OT?What does the phrase actually mean?

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Here the Egyptians under the plagues of Jehovah God realize the divine punishments are to them a kind of death. "We are all dead men," means they are cut off, separated from well being, fortune, the blessings of the God of the Hebrews because of their national sins against the Jews and the obstinance of their Pharoah.

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Not a "kind" of death. The plagues had caused physical deaths. The Egyptians wanted them out before anyone else physically died. You're not staying with the plain reading of the text.In other translations the phrase reads: For otherwise," they said, "we will all die!"It is a very straight forward statement.

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In both cases the deadness is do to being out of favor with the God of all blessing.

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In both cases the word translated as death, refers to physical death. The usage refers to physical death.Spiritual death is a later concept you're projecting backwards.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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This verse clearly implies spiritual death, for the record states that Adam lived physically for centuries after he and his wife ate of the tree.

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Spiritual death renders one unable to commune with God aside from an intercessor/priest and sin sacrifice. Thus the Levitical priesthood and temple worship etc. As well, thus the death of Jesus on the cross, the innocent one having inherrant eternal spiritual life.

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Hey Buz,
I addressed this issue at the beginning of the thread. I'd appreciate it if you would read through those arguments and see if there is something new you wish to add. Remember, we're looking at the plain text.

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Conclusion: That sinful mankind must be born anew spiritually clearly implies that at some point mankind became inherantly spiritually dead, requiring redemption/spiritual renewal, via sacrifical death of the christ/messiah/saviour of the world, Jesus who died once and for all for the sins of mankind.

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I don't see that the plain text implies that taking the phrase spiritual death at face value. What does spiritual death mean? There doesn't seem to be a consistent meaning to the phrase.The general meaning given is separation of the spirit from God. Those who were considered righteous would not be considered spiritually dead by that meaning.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

The Bible is not a dictionary. We all know what spiritual means and we all know what death means. God told Adam he would experience death the very day that he ate. At that moment he was booted from the presence of God in the garden and walking with God in it.Textual fact 1. Something within the being of Adam died that day, which was not a physical death.Textual fact 2. God prepared animal skins to cover the nakedness of man, implicating the substitutionary death of animals as a remedy for spiritual death of mankind. The text also says that animal sacrifice for sins was instituted as the only acceptable sacrifice for the sins of Adam's family as per the blood sacrifice of Abel being acceptable and the sacrifice of vegies as per Cain being rejected.I will do as you say and read up. In the mean time if you have not already addressed my specific points, a response would be appreciated.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

For the immediate purpose of exploring spiritual death in the Torah I am speaking of the few passages which indicate man separated from the blessing of God and/or under His judgment or curse.Exodus 12:33, Gen 20:3 are both passages when either God pronouced or man admitted that he was in a realm of death.I am aware of different translations which is why I chose the 1901 American Standard which has a reputation for being "wooden", ie, adhering to the original meaning at the expense of sounding good in English: " ... We are all dead men." (1901 ASV) They feel they are dead because of the judgments of God upon them. Smoother English translations do render it "We are dying" or "We will all die". These may be paraphased for the sake of sounding better in English. A native ancient Hebrew reader might inform us. I do not read ancient Hebrew.And I will add another verse from Exodus 10:17 where Pharoah begs Moses to halt the judgments of God upon him and his kingdom: "Now therefore forgive, I pray thee, my sin only this once, and entreat Jehovah your God, that He take away from me this death only."The entire matter of Jehovah's punishing judgments were regarded as "this death". Jehovah is a spiritual being and Pharoah hardens his conscience against Jehovah's conviction of his sins. These are spiritual judgments of which "spiritual death" is an appropriate discription.The implication of spiritual death is in God's words linking death to cursing and life to blessing in the book of Deutoronomy. Life is associated with blessing, not simply with a beating heart. Death is associated with curse. The curses were elaborated ad naseum in chapter 28. It is not too much to say that abiding under such punishing curses was a kind of spiritual death for spiritual disobedience to a Spiritual Yahweh. Life is associated with good and death with evil. The evils are elaborated in chapter 28. To be under them, under God's judgment and separated from His blessing was the same kind of death that Pharoah asked that God would take away from him. Of course the full culmination of such judgment could end in the termination of physical life.When we look at the enjoyment of the Torah by and Old Testament patriarch we see him thanking God that he was made alive by the word of God's law: The Psalmist does not mean that God's word is causing him to become physically alive. Rather he means it is strengthening him, comforting him, empowering him in adverse circumstances. So the converse is that before he was quickened or enlivened by the word he experienced a kind of weakeness or deadness.The implication of spiritual life and spiritual death is indicated by this patriarch's enjoyment of the Torah. Psalm 119 is a psalm about David's enjoyment of the law of God. Yes it is a kind of death in that it is a loss of vitality. They are utterly weak in the face of God's judgments. Here the death is the abject weakness of vitality. It is a very straight forward statement. It is like saying we are as good as dead. They feel so because of their weakness under such judgments of God.The concept of a spiritual death is not as far away from the Torah as you portray it to be. Yet for Pharoah to say "remove this death from me" must mean that it is so close that its depressing effects are oppressive to him. For a brief moment he sees the oppressive and dark result of his stubburness towards the spiritual God of the Hebrews. The sense of spiritual death is not as far from the Torah as you would like to make it.What was David before he was quickened or enlivened by the word of God's law ? You may say that he was of course not physically dead. However he felt oppressed, depressed, darkened, dull towards God and goodness and non-vital.That the words of the law of God enlivened or quickened David proves that spiritual death is not as far away from the Torah as you would like to make it. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Exactly! But then that wouldn't be a plain reading of the text at all, would it?Earlier in the thread someone was using "Sheol" as an example of the idea of spiritual death and/or existence of the soul separate from the body. But when I was growing up I learned (in church!) that sheol was actually the Hebrew word for "the grave". Speaking of people as being in The Grave and having certain experiences could be interpreted, even in a plain reading, as meaning something more than literal. But I would call it metaphorical, rather than spiritual.That doesn't mean it couldn't later be interpreted as a spiritual existence, of course. Or, it could later be interpreted as an allegory for the retroactive feelings of the resurrected person. Or, it could later be interpreted as mere poetic language. But at best, without such development, on a plain reading of the original text independently of commentary, it has to be interpreted as a contradiction or a metaphor.I don't see even this difficulty with Genesis 2&3. On a plain reading of the text, God says someone's going to die on a particular day, and they don't. The snake says not only are they not going to die on that day but in fact what will actually happen on that day is that they will get smart. They try it, and get smart. God says oh no, they've gotten smart, there's a real danger now of them Not Ever dying. We need to get them out of here!This reads as a vary familar story type characterizing adult / child relations. Farmer Brown says Stay out of my tomater patch kids, or I'm gonna kill you! The kids steal some tomatoes anyway, and Farmer Brown doesn't actually kill them, he just chases them off. I don't believe the contemporary reader would have seen this as an example of God's spiritual plan for redemption, so much as an example of God's mercy.This is part of why I drag Jonah into the question. Sure, God says he's going to do awful things. But his bark is worse than his bite. God's motto appears to be, never put off til tomorrow, what you can put off for hundreds of years.Later, when the people are smarter, or at least less grateful for the mercy, then there may come various "spiritual" interpretations. Oh, that was just a "spiritual" death (or creation?) It doesn't mean an actual 24-hour day!

Let me ask you this. Genesis 3:5 says "God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened ...". Doesn't that "plain reading" of the text require some interpretation ?Did Genesis mean that Eve's eyelids were tightly shut and once she bite the fruit her eyelids would be opened ?I am watching closely how far this "plain reading of the text" concept is taken adherents, and whether it is applied selectively to arrive at a pre-conceived theological outcome of choice. I would want to see what is written above. However, we have to regard Sheol as more than simply the physical grave because of certain utterances in the Scripture. Some examples are given: Proverbs 27:20 - "Sheol and Abaddon are never satisfied." That means Sheol the place of the dead never fills up. But a physical grave can be filled.And Proverbs 30:16 says that Sheol is one of the things which never say "Enough". Though millions of people die and are buried in graves the realm of the dead Sheol is never full. Amos 9:2 - Though they dig into Sheol, From there My hand will take them ..." The indication is that could man possibly dig into the earth deep enough he would reach Sheol. Now this strongly implies that Sheol is some region under the earth. And if we were not told that some people descended alive into Sheol (Num.16:30,33) we might not have to regard is as anything but poetic. However we are told: Look also at First Samuel 28:8,11 and the spirit of Samuel which came up from the earth being brought up from Sheol.I have to run now. I will continue latter.

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The Bible is not a dictionary. We all know what spiritual means and we all know what death means. God told Adam he would experience death the very day that he ate. At that moment he was booted from the presence of God in the garden and walking with God in it.

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Spiritual has various meanings. Given that the doctrine of Spiritual Death seems to be based on Paul, I assume the meaning used for spiritual for this phrase would be: concerned with religious values. Death also has various meanings depending on how it is used. Since the phrase is being used concerning the living, I assume the meaning used for death is: a cause of ruin or the passing or destruction of something inanimate.From what I can tell, spiritual death is another way of describing immorality or those not following the Judeo-Christian God. When Paul personifies death, life and spirit; death and life/spirit take on the meanings in some verses of immoral and moral. Those are the issues that Paul presented to his audience. Right and wrong behavior.I do agree that according to the Bible writings, those not following the commands of the Hebrew God could be estranged from the Hebrew community and/or isolated from the blessings of God. The Doctrine of Spiritual Death is still a later concept projected backwards.I don't agree that the phrase "spiritual death" can be used to replace the words translated as death or die in the OT. The plain text readings do not support that exchange.

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Textual fact 1. Something within the being of Adam died that day, which was not a physical death.

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That is not a textual fact. There is nothing in the text that says "something" within Adam died that day. The textual fact is that God didn't kill them when they ate from the tree. God disciplined them in a different way.

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Textual fact 2. God prepared animal skins to cover the nakedness of man, implicating the substitutionary death of animals as a remedy for spiritual death of mankind. The text also says that animal sacrifice for sins was instituted as the only acceptable sacrifice for the sins of Adam's family as per the blood sacrifice of Abel being acceptable and the sacrifice of vegies as per Cain being rejected.

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Textual fact, God prepared covering for A&E. Nothing more. You're reading later concepts into the plain text.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Did Genesis mean that Eve's eyelids were tightly shut and once she bite the fruit her eyelids would be opened ?

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I have been very clear about what the simple reading entails. If you can't view the simple reading seriously, then I suggest you abstain from this thread.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Exodus 12:33, Gen 20:3 are both passages when either God pronouced or man admitted that he was in a realm of death.

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In both cases the word translated as death, refers to physical death. The usage refers to physical death.

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The entire matter of Jehovah's punishing judgments were regarded as "this death". Jehovah is a spiritual being and Pharoah hardens his conscience against Jehovah's conviction of his sins. These are spiritual judgments of which "spiritual death" is an appropriate discription.

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Actually God hardened Pharaoh's "conscience". I disagree that spiritual death is an appropriate description in this story. God orchestrated the whole scenario to show his power. Pharaoh wanted the plague stopped. It would have been death to him and his people.

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The implication of spiritual death is in God's words linking death to cursing and life to blessing in the book of Deutoronomy.

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Deuteronomy 30:19 uses the words death and life creatively. They follow God's commands and all will go well with them, if they don't their lives will be difficult. I disagree that it implies spiritual death. You see spiritual death because of a later doctrine that developed hundreds of years later. Spiritual death is a later concept.

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The Psalmist does not mean that God's word is causing him to become physically alive. Rather he means it is strengthening him, comforting him, empowering him in adverse circumstances. So the converse is that before he was quickened or enlivened by the word he experienced a kind of weakeness or deadness.

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Not really. You're using the word deadness creatively. The law comforts him or gives him hope in adverse circumstances. The song doesn't say he lost faith.

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Yet for Pharoah to say "remove this death from me" must mean that it is so close that its depressing effects are oppressive to him. For a brief moment he sees the oppressive and dark result of his stubburness towards the spiritual God of the Hebrews. The sense of spiritual death is not as far from the Torah as you would like to make it.

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You're saying because God is spiritual, that any "death" coming from God is spiritual death?The concept of spiritual death did not come from the OT. The concept developed after the NT based on Paul's writings. You're taking that later concept and projecting it back into the OT on anything that speaks of death, or judgment.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz