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Author Topic:   Does Death Pose Challenge To Abiogenesis
Cedre
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 89 of 191 (533316)
10-30-2009 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Adminnemooseus
10-30-2009 2:56 AM


Re: Contact with the topic theme getting pretty tenuous
What comprises life is relevant to the question of abiogenesis, if life is just a collection of parts then abiogenesis may be possible if it isn't, then it isn't so possible, and my post deals with these things. How is it irrelevant or tenuous.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Adminnemooseus, posted 10-30-2009 2:56 AM Adminnemooseus has not replied

  
Cedre
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 90 of 191 (533317)
10-30-2009 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Meldinoor
10-29-2009 5:13 PM


Re: Evidence please
Dear Adminnemooseus this post is a reply to Meldinoor's post 69. My goal is not to wander off topic I just feel that I have to respond to my critics, lest I give them the impression that I can't respond.
Before you continue to assert this, perhaps you'd like to provide some evidence of "unnatural deaths".
Death comes through natural means this is how one ceases to exist on this physical planet, even if demons or some other supernatural entity causes death he/she/it does it via attacking the physical body of the targeted individual maybe by means of a sickness as in the case of Job.
Perhaps you'd like to explain why a person who chokes to death can be resuscitated, while a person who is heavily irradiated (cell damage) can not.
I actually can, pardon me first of all administrators for discussing an irrelevant topic, I'm but responding to a post more so seeing that Meldinoor has said that unless I can respond to these questions, he doesn't see how my concept of what it takes to be living has any foundation in the real world. Well as I said earlier at least in our case, we need a body a soul and a spirit to be alive in this physical realm, a body to interact with matter, and the spirit to power the body and the soul as I said is who you are. So in cases of severe cell damage you body has undergone great damage thus it's harder to be revived in such a case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Meldinoor, posted 10-29-2009 5:13 PM Meldinoor has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Meldinoor, posted 10-30-2009 3:42 AM Cedre has replied

  
Cedre
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 92 of 191 (533320)
10-30-2009 5:34 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Meldinoor
10-30-2009 3:42 AM


Re: Abiogenesis does not produce zombies
Bingo! So a dead body is indeed different from a living one.
Don't fool yourself severe cell damage as I showed in my previous post doesn't occur until later after death. Cell damage occurs right after death but it's minute and negligible compared to the damage that occurs hours later, but for several hours even the cells of the heart hasn't undergone any severe damage. I gave links for this in my previous post
A broken human body that has undergone irreversible damage on the cellular level can not come back to life!
As I keep on saying irreversible damage doesn't occur rapidly after death it takes hours according to the links in my previous post, muscle tissue(heart et) doesn't disintegrate for several hours so does bone and skin tissue, brain tissue breaks down first but then again people can stay alive with a dead brain as the Wikipedia link that I gave demonstrates. The fact that organisms die even though the essential requirements for life are intact show that life is not just a sum of its part this creates a problem for abiogenesis. I have provided supporting evidence for my argument so far that organisms die even though all the parts required for life are in place.
Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Meldinoor, posted 10-30-2009 3:42 AM Meldinoor has not replied

  
Cedre
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 94 of 191 (533322)
10-30-2009 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Meldinoor
10-30-2009 3:42 AM


Re: Abiogenesis does not produce zombies
Now what evidence do you have that life requires a supernatural component? You keep asserting that life without a supernatural component is dead, but where's the evidence?
I have been giving the evidence from the very beginning of this post. I showed that dead organisms have all the components required for life yet have no life, its like a car with all its parts but refusing to move. Abiogenesis claims all we need are parts to be alive, but death defies this claim, as I have shown many times already. From this I concluded that parts are not all that is required for life, and I proposed that perhaps a spirit is also needed for life.
A broken human body that has undergone irreversible damage on the cellular level can not come back to life! This would require restoring many many damaged "parts" back to function.
The human body is not that onionskin it can withstand tremendous stress, and it can also exist without a few parts, it can also survive on with a damaged or dead brain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Meldinoor, posted 10-30-2009 3:42 AM Meldinoor has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Huntard, posted 10-30-2009 6:14 AM Cedre has replied
 Message 131 by Capt Stormfield, posted 10-30-2009 5:40 PM Cedre has not replied

  
Cedre
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 95 of 191 (533323)
10-30-2009 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by caffeine
10-30-2009 5:45 AM


Re: Brains are important
As you point out here, brain cells are amongst the first to die when starved of oxygen, and the brain is a pretty vital and central part of the effective functioning of a human body.
despite damage to the brain life can carry on, in fact this is what is seen in victims of brain damage, which is the total necrosis of the cerebral neurons following loss of blood flow and oxygenation in line with Wikipedia. Conversely, muscle cells live on for several hours meaning that heart is still intact for several hours following death even at the cellular level.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by NosyNed, posted 10-30-2009 11:10 AM Cedre has replied

  
Cedre
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 98 of 191 (533328)
10-30-2009 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee
10-30-2009 6:06 AM


Re: Emergent proerties.....
You keep ignoring the points that many have made that the "parts" or materials that were present for abiogenesis were nothing like an apparently intact dead body.
I haven't ignored those "parts" or "materials", from the beginning I have said that abiogenesis claims all that's required for life are parts but living organisms today are violating that concept when they die.
What about if it is driven by a computer? Does the computer have a soul?
All you have done is replace the human driver with a non-human driver, in the end the car still requires a driver without a driver its not going to move and won't display any speed.
They would have been chemical elements or compounds that, under certain conditions of chance, went through a non-random process of reactions that eventually led to what we would consider to be self-replicating lifeforms.
Present day living organisms are also self-replicating yet once an organism dies its reproduction system shuts down. The material needed for replication also need a source of power, a driver if we use the car analogy.
and processed those materials from scratch and assembled them to build a car, that is a totally different series of processes than those that would be needed to repair and kick-start a car that was already fully built but had developed some sort of fault (say the engine was seized up by rust).
Whether your building a car from scratch or just repairing it a driver is still required for it to move.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 10-30-2009 6:06 AM Jumped Up Chimpanzee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 10-30-2009 6:32 AM Cedre has not replied
 Message 116 by Drosophilla, posted 10-30-2009 9:35 AM Cedre has replied

  
Cedre
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 99 of 191 (533330)
10-30-2009 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Huntard
10-30-2009 6:14 AM


Re: Abiogenesis does not produce zombies
You yourself have admitted that dead things after a certain amount of time do not have all the components for life.
Yes I did but before that time arrives they still have all the parts intact.
No you haven't. In fact, you have admitted just that. When there is death, decay ensues, and that makes it impossible to revive people. This may not be extensive enough in the first minutes after death, but try it after 3 hours, see if you can revive anyone then.
Yes I have. It takes a while for decay to ensue in the meantime important cells as the heart muscle cells are intact. Yet the organism is dead showing that even with all the essential parts for life intact an organism can be lifeless thus abiogenesis confronts a problem.
You have concluded wrongly, as nothing you have said points to this. It in fact points to the opposite.
I think my conclusion is rational and follows from the evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Huntard, posted 10-30-2009 6:14 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Huntard, posted 10-30-2009 6:33 AM Cedre has replied

  
Cedre
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 103 of 191 (533335)
10-30-2009 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Coragyps
10-30-2009 7:12 AM


Re: Emergent proerties.....
So nematodes and mushrooms have souls and spirits, correct? Those are requirements for life, or just for animal life? Clarify that for me before we go much further, Cedre - it impacts your argument a bit.
Does an earthworm have a soul and a spirit? Is an earthworm alive?
How about a maple tree?
Yes animals do have a spirit, in other words the breath of life
(Gen 7:22) All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
Animals however do not have souls, plants also have a spirit, view a spirit as a life giving force or wind. However in a man the spirit has a secondary function and that is to establish a connection between him and God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Coragyps, posted 10-30-2009 7:12 AM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Coragyps, posted 10-30-2009 9:16 AM Cedre has replied

  
Cedre
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 104 of 191 (533336)
10-30-2009 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Huntard
10-30-2009 6:33 AM


Re: Abiogenesis does not produce zombies
So, what you're saying is that it is indeed due to the parts not being intact that causes a person not to be revivable, and not the spirit.
No, dead organisms have intact parts yet are dead, lifeless.
Uhm no. There is something wrong with the body, else it wouldn't be dead. The fact that we can repair a bit within a few minutes of death occuring does not prove a spirit.
My argument is abiogenesis talks about life being solely reliant on parts but dead organisms still have the components required for life yet are not alive. Like suffocated human being or other causes of death where theres no physical injury to the organism every part is intact in the right place yet no life is present.
But it doesn't. For you to be able to draw this conclusion, you'd have to have evidence that it is due to the (as of yet unevidenced) spirit that a body is revived, and not due to the doctors replacing a function that stopped/broke.
Here's a link to possible proof for the spirit. Soul - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Huntard, posted 10-30-2009 6:33 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Huntard, posted 10-30-2009 9:11 AM Cedre has replied
 Message 108 by Theodoric, posted 10-30-2009 9:17 AM Cedre has replied

  
Cedre
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 107 of 191 (533340)
10-30-2009 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Huntard
10-30-2009 9:11 AM


Re: Abiogenesis does not produce zombies
Because they don't have all the parts needed to be alive, for example, a working brain.
I already explained this in one of my previous posts, human beings can survive even with a dead brain and that's what we see in victims of brain death.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Huntard, posted 10-30-2009 9:11 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Theodoric, posted 10-30-2009 9:19 AM Cedre has replied
 Message 112 by Huntard, posted 10-30-2009 9:26 AM Cedre has replied

  
Cedre
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 110 of 191 (533343)
10-30-2009 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Coragyps
10-30-2009 9:16 AM


Re: Emergent proerties.....
So you didn't really mean it when you wrote "but without a spirit and soul it won't have life." I see.
I wasn't so clear but when I said soul I specifically was referring to human beings not other organisms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Coragyps, posted 10-30-2009 9:16 AM Coragyps has not replied

  
Cedre
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 111 of 191 (533344)
10-30-2009 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Theodoric
10-30-2009 9:17 AM


Re: Weight of the soul? I think not.
all this criticisms are unfounded such as poor scales being used in these experiments, and the rest have been answered MacDougall himself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Theodoric, posted 10-30-2009 9:17 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Theodoric, posted 10-30-2009 10:25 AM Cedre has not replied

  
Cedre
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 113 of 191 (533347)
10-30-2009 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Theodoric
10-30-2009 9:19 AM


Re: Abiogenesis does not produce zombies
ow about a dead heart? Are you saying the soul is in the heart not in the brain?
No. What I'm saying is despite the presence of all the necessary parts for life dead organisms like human beings remain dead, despite all the components being there that are needed for life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Theodoric, posted 10-30-2009 9:19 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 122 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 10-30-2009 10:48 AM Cedre has replied
 Message 126 by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, posted 10-30-2009 11:51 AM Cedre has replied
 Message 129 by SammyJean, posted 10-30-2009 2:27 PM Cedre has not replied

  
Cedre
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 114 of 191 (533348)
10-30-2009 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Huntard
10-30-2009 9:26 AM


A human with a non functioning brain is alive? Evidence please. The fact we can restart it a few minutes after death does not mean there's a spirit there.
Brain death - Wikipedia, Brain Death - Neurologic Disorders - Merck Manuals Professional Edition.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Huntard, posted 10-30-2009 9:26 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Huntard, posted 10-30-2009 9:48 AM Cedre has replied

  
Cedre
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 117 of 191 (533351)
10-30-2009 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Drosophilla
10-30-2009 9:35 AM


Re: Emergent proerties.....
You can start a car, put it in gear, wedge a bit of wood on the accelerator and bingo the car will move...with no driver....and displays 'speed'. So your argument is junk.
You needed a driver to start the car, you can't escape the driver so my argument isn't junk.
It is utterly irrelevant whether there is a driver, a block of wedged wood or a gorilla at the helm - the 'speed' is only possible because of the special arrangement of the initial component build.
No you need a driver to start the car.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Drosophilla, posted 10-30-2009 9:35 AM Drosophilla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Drosophilla, posted 10-30-2009 7:36 PM Cedre has replied

  
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