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Author Topic:   Prophecy in the Bible - Theology of Double Fulfillment
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3486 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 4 of 157 (527750)
10-02-2009 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jazzns
10-01-2009 1:06 PM


PaRDeS
quote:
I'll tell you right now that what I am NOT looking for is an argument that double fulfillment must be true in order to make the Bible accurate. I am looking for direct theological, historical, and Biblical evidence that we SHOULD consider double fulfillment as a valid method for interpreting prophecy in its own right.
I don't have the resources or knowledge that Brian has, but don't see that the prophecy writers give the impression that their prophecies hold a double meaning.
The NT writer seem to be applying a form of Remez to interpret the OT.
Hints, Allegories, and Mysteries: The New Testament Quotes the Old

(2) Remez (hint)wherein a word, phrase or other element in the text hints at a truth not conveyed by the p’shat. The implied presupposition is that God can hint at things of which the Bible writers themselves were unaware.
Kyle Williams has presented the book of Matthew as satire. The Satire According to Matthew
When it comes to thumbing his nose at the reader, Matthew's phony fulfillments are his forte. It is generally conceded that Matthew addressed his gospel to a Jewish audience. The Jews, being familiar with the Old Testament scriptures, would have recognized Matthew's phony fulfillments as signals that the book should not be taken seriously.
What if the humor got lost on the Gentiles and double fulfillment was born.
Daniel and the New Testament
This article brings out several references to Daniel made in the NT, although some of his references from Matthew to Daniel are rather vague.
Matthew (24:15) is the only one who refers back to the Book of Daniel (9:27)concerning the abomination that causes desolation. Mark (13:14) and Luke (21:20) don't. Luke doesn't even say abomination.
Luke 21:20
"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.
Using the same words doesn't mean they are referring back to Daniel.
I think the Book of Matthew sparked the double fulfillment issue, whether seriously or in jest.
I don't see that the OT writers lead one to that conclusion. If you notice the definition of Remez gives the implication that a writer can be clueless to an underlying meaning from God. I don't see that the OT writers presented that idea.
Edited by purpledawn, : Fix link

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jazzns, posted 10-01-2009 1:06 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Jazzns, posted 10-02-2009 3:26 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 8 by PaulK, posted 10-02-2009 5:47 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3486 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 6 of 157 (527794)
10-02-2009 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Jazzns
10-02-2009 3:26 PM


Re: PaRDeS
quote:
If I understand what you are saying it essentially is still boiling down to an argument that double prophecy has to be true in order to make the Bible accurate.
That wasn't my intention.
I agree that in the text of Daniel the writer does not present the idea that the fulfillment events would take place 2000 or more years later. I don't think any of the prophecies did. They were written for their audience.
I think the double fulfillment idea was generated through looking for hidden meanings after the exile in texts for hope since the prophecy well had run dry for many years before Christ. That may be reflected in the humor of the Matthew writer. Supposedly there were many who claimed to be the messiah and they probably used the scripture to try and prove they were.
Looking for hidden meanings is just another way of reading religious text. It doesn't really deal with accuracy. Although as a general rule any extended meaning supposedly should not contradict the simple or direct meaning.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Jazzns, posted 10-02-2009 3:26 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Jazzns, posted 10-02-2009 5:35 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3486 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 10 of 157 (527834)
10-02-2009 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Jazzns
10-02-2009 5:35 PM


Re: PaRDeS
quote:
I fear that that explanation might stuffer from the same properties that I am trying to avoid though in that there is no evidence to support the validity of such interpretations.
Valid as in they are allowed to do it, or valid as in the interpretation matches the simple reading? These types of interpretations aren't meant to match the simple reading. Religions can interpret their religious writings any way they want. When people stop buying into it they will disappear.
quote:
Was such a thing done in the past with older prophecies? Is there support somewhere in the Bible or elsewhere to suggest that it is okay theologically to do such a thing?
From what I can tell this type of interpretation came about after the exile when the rabbinic style emerged. Before that the manuscripts were still being written.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Jazzns, posted 10-02-2009 5:35 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3486 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 11 of 157 (527843)
10-02-2009 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by PaulK
10-02-2009 5:47 PM


Re: PaRDeS
quote:
Mark's reference is pretty clear - and the authorial aside "let the reader understand" is a strong hint, Luke's version of the Olivet Discourse is pretty heavily rewritten - probably with knowledge of the events of 70 AD - which don't agree that well with the version found in Mark and Matthew. Luke would know, for instance, that there was nothing corresponding to Daniel's "Abomination".
I don't see that the author of Mark is insinuating that this is a second fulfillment of Daniel, but more of a similar event. Times just as bad as described in Daniel. We assume it refers to Daniel or have been told it does; but I don't see it in the text.
quote:
But I don't think that you have a very strong case for this example (unlike those in Matthew's Nativity - which could easily be original to Matthew's gospel).
Strong case for what?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by PaulK, posted 10-02-2009 5:47 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by PaulK, posted 10-03-2009 4:04 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3486 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 14 of 157 (527898)
10-03-2009 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by PaulK
10-03-2009 4:04 AM


Re: PaRDeS
quote:
I would say that the author of Mark regarded it as a fulfilment of Daniel - I can see no indication that he felt it to be merely "similar" events. Whether the author saw it as a second fulfilment requires determining his opinion of whether the prophecy had already been fulfilled or not - which we cannot even do for Matthew. We must remember that the End did NOT come according to Daniel's "predictions" so it is distinctly possible that the authors reinterpreted Daniel as referring to later events.
The idea that the use of Daniel in Matthew's version of the Olivet Discourse is satire. Taken at face value it seems to be a simple replacement for the authorial aside, conveying the information that the author of Mark intended that the reader should discover.
1 Maccabees also mentions the abomination of desolation and describes what happened. The author of Mark could also be referring to that incident. Notice they fled to the mountains.
The Book of Daniel is grouped with the writings in the Jewish Bible, not the prophets.
1 Maccabees 1
[54] Now the fifteenth day of the month Casleu, in the hundred forty and fifth year, they set up the abomination of desolation upon the altar, and builded idol altars throughout the cities of Juda on every side;
1 Maccabees 2
[27] And Mattathias cried throughout the city with a loud voice, saying, Whosoever is zealous of the law, and maintaineth the covenant, let him follow me.
[28] So he and his sons fled into the mountains, and left all that ever they had in the city.
[29] Then many that sought after justice and judgment went down into the wilderness, to dwell there:
Early Jewish Writings: Daniel
W. Sibley Towner writes: "Daniel is one of the few OT books that can be given a fairly firm date. In the form in which we have it (perhaps without the additions of 12:11, 12), the book must have been given its final form some time in the years 167-164 B.C. This dating is based upon two assumptions: first, that the authors lived at the later end of the historical surveys that characterize Daniel 7-12; and second, that prophecy is accurate only when it is given after the fact, whereas predictions about the future tend to run astray. Based upon these assumptions, the references to the desecration of the Temple and the 'abomination that makes desolate' in 8:9-12; 9:27; and 11:31 must refer to events known to the author. The best candidates for the historical referents of these events are the desecration of the Temple in Jerusalem and the erection in it of a pagan altar in the autumn of 167 B.C. by Antiochus IV Epiphanes. The inaccurate description of the end of Antiochus' reign and his death in 11:40-45, on the other hand, suggests that the author did not know of those events, which occurred late in 164 or early in 163 B.C. The roots of the hagiographa (idealizing stories) about Daniel and his friends in chaps. 1-6 may date to an earlier time, but the entire work was given its final shape in 164 B.C." (Harper's Bible Commentary, p. 696)
Early Jewish Writings: 1 Maccabees
David A. deSilva writes: "The book must have been written after the accession of John Hyrcanus in 134 B.C.E., since this event is the last related in the narrative. The author speaks of the Romans highly and emphasizes the Jews' friendly relations with Rome and Rome's faithfulnes as allies, necessitating a date of composition prior to 63 B.C.E. (Oesterley 1913: 60; Goldstein 1976: 63; Fischer 1992: 441; Bartlett 1998: 34). The narration of the achievements and character of the Romans in 8:1-16 is an encomium, contrasting sharply with later reflection on Roman conquest and rule as arrogance, insolence, and an affront against God. Pompey's entry into the holy places in 63 B.C.E. would have marred the author's unqualified appreciation of the Romans (as a comparison with the response of Psalms of Solomon 2; 8; 17 to that event might show). . . . The conclusion to the whole (16:23-24), while not necessitating a date after Hyrcanus's death, is certainly more naturally taken that way, given the parallels in the books of Samuel and Kings, on which the author is intentionally drawing (Oesterley 1913: 60; Pfeiffer 1949: 301; Goldstein 1976: 63; Bartlett 1998: 33). . . . It seems preferable, therefore, to consider 1 Maccabees as having originated sometime after John Hyrcanus's death in 104 B.C.E. and before Roman intervention in the dispute between Hyrcanus II and Aristobulus II in 63 B.C.E." (Introducing the Apocrypha, p. 248)
That one reference is not what makes the book of Matthew a satirical writing.
Daniel wasn't necessarily canonical at the time of Mark's writing. Was the writer of Mark alluding to Daniel or the actual Maccabean event which would remind the people of what did happen when they were overrun before?
In the Septuagint, the Torah and Nevi'im are established as canonical, but, the Ketuvim appear not to have been definitively canonized yet (some editions of the Septuagint include, for instance I—IV Maccabees or the 151st Psalm, while others do not include them, also there are the Septuagint additions to Esther, Jeremiah, and Daniel and 1 Esdras).
As I said: I think the Book of Matthew sparked the double fulfillment issue, whether seriously or in jest. I could be wrong. Just my thoughts.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by PaulK, posted 10-03-2009 4:04 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by PaulK, posted 10-03-2009 4:26 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3486 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 16 of 157 (527982)
10-03-2009 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by PaulK
10-03-2009 4:26 PM


Son of Man
quote:
Mark also refers to "The Son of Man" which is taken to be a reference to Daniel. (And I would think that Matthew would be more likely to refer to merely "similar" events than Mark).
Why? Ezekiel is called son of man many times.
The point is that Mark isn't necessarily referencing Daniel. It could be Daniel or Maccabees. Luke backs away from it, since that book was probably written after the destruction and he knew the events foretold in Mark 13 hadn't happened.
quote:
Josephus was active at that time, and IIRC probably did include Daniel as canonical. And as your source states 1 Maccabees is no more likely to be considered canonical itself.
Josephus said there were 22 books, but Daniel wasn't mentioned by name.
How Did the Old Testament Become the Old Testament?
Josephus According to the Jewish historian, Josephus (A.D. 37-95), the Hebrew OT was complete and no more canonical writings were composed after the reign of Artaxerxes (464-424 B.C.):
From Artaxerxes (the successor of Xerxes) until our time everything has been recorded, but has not been deemed worthy of like credit with what preceded, because the exact succession of the prophets ceased. . . . For though so long a time has now passed, no one has dared to add anything to them, or to take anything from them, or to alter anything in them (Josephus, Against Apion I. 8.).
I agree the Maccabees also weren't canonical, but it sounds like they both may have been included in the Septuagint, even though they weren't canonical.
Double fulfillment may have been born through apologetics also.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by PaulK, posted 10-03-2009 4:26 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Peg, posted 10-03-2009 8:38 PM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 22 by PaulK, posted 10-04-2009 4:32 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3486 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 23 of 157 (528073)
10-04-2009 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by PaulK
10-04-2009 4:32 AM


Re: Son of Man
quote:
Because the Son of Man in Mark appears to be a more-than-human figure.
Considering that that author of Mark was referring to Jesus throughout the book as the son of man, he would have been referring to Jesus.
The verse in Daniel says "one like a son of man". The interpretation of the dream explained further in chapter 7 of Daniel doesn't follow through with the idea of one ethereal person. Of course that doesn't mean, later interpretations looking for deeper meanings couldn't make a different argument.
My point is that what was written by Mark, Matthew, and Luke doesn't necessarily imply the writer sees this as a second fulfillment of Daniel. It could just as easily be a reference that the coming event will be just as bad as described in the Maccabees.
quote:
As we know, Josephus (wrongly) believed that Daniel was written at the time the story is set. Thus Daniel could certainly fall into the canonical group - and 1 Maccabees could not. Also if you read your own source it proposes that Ruth is counted as part of Judges and Lamentations as part of Jeremiah to explain the count of 22.
Does Josephus actually list the 22 books? I didn't see a list. If he doesn't list them, we don't that Daniel was or wasn't part of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by PaulK, posted 10-04-2009 4:32 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by PaulK, posted 10-04-2009 3:52 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
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