Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 61 (9209 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: The Rutificador chile
Post Volume: Total: 919,507 Year: 6,764/9,624 Month: 104/238 Week: 21/83 Day: 4/0 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Claims of God Being Omnipotent in the Bible
greyseal
Member (Idle past 4120 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 241 of 381 (519776)
08-17-2009 6:36 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by JRTjr
08-16-2009 3:31 PM


Re: Wise as Serpents
firstly, Hi and thanks for the reply. I like your honesty. It scares me, I'd get a restraining order if we lived near each other, but I respect your honesty.
JRTjr writes:
Greyseal writes:
I don't really know why you felt it necessary to write down what bloodythirsty, sin and atonement meant
My reason for defining these terms is because I want to be vary specific with what I am saying.
Nethertheless, these words are well understood.
JRTjr writes:
The point I was trying to make was that the Creator of the universes is not some bloodthirsty, vengeful god waiting, with baited breath, to find one little reason to snuff you out. He is patient and long suffering wanting all to repent of their transgressions (Sin) and accept His free gift of Grace.
..except that he calls himself an angry, vengeful god at various times. He doesn't call himself bloodthirsty, but I and many others do - ordering your followers to commit mass murder, genocide, etc, etc sounds pretty bloodthirsty to me.
JTRjr writes:
However, God has given us free will. This means that we can chose to do things our way or chose to do things His way.
In the words of the Godfather (haha, I made a funny), it's an offer we can't refuse, amirite?
Dude, if you've told your followers to commit the above acts, you've given them the right AND responsibility.
Must. not. Godwin. thread. must. not. reference. Hitler's. Final. Solution...grrrnnnggggghhh!
Argh! I can't take it! Do you realise that in your next paragraph of unrequited bile, you've said that your god gives you leave to kill everyone you find to be "bad" for the good of the human race?
Do you?
Must I spell it out?
...and they think that Darwin leads to eugenics! GAH!
JTRjr writes:
Note also that God only had Israel wipeout totally one or two city states or groups of people.
facepalm ...only, he says
Greyseal writes:
The fact is, we think that when your god tells you to murder women and children, to kill all the manfolk, to burn, rape and pillage, that that happens to fulfill the exact meaning of bloodthirsty.
JTRjr writes:
Two things here; One, it’s not just my god, I am speaking of the Creator of the universes. The Creator of the universes’ authority out strips all others...*snip* long bloodthirsty self-important diatribe...Death is the righteous penalty for murder not because its ‘fun to kill’, but because it’s the only punishment that fits the crime.
Woah...
1a) yeah, your god. Proof your deity created everything is required. There are quite a few gods out there who'd like to step up and tell you how wrong you are - followers of Thor, Wotan, Zeus, FSM, Xenu, Krishna, Jupiter...
The following quote from Stephen F. Roberts sums up the situation very nicely:
quote:
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
1b) forgive me, but..jesus christ! You scare me.
JTRjr writes:
Second, God has never told anyone it is O.K. to rape.
Judges 21. Need I say more? I could.
JTRjr writes:
One last thing; If God is real, then the choice is whether or not to do things His way. If God does not exist whether or not you believe does not matter.
So, you're attempting to change Pascal's Wager into the Godfather's Favour.
If your god is real, he is a bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature that I reject utterly. If he is not real, you lot who feel so superior and smug as you hand down life and death judgements in the name of some santa-claus fairy story are some scary, misguided people.
Excuse me, but I'll be over here, in the rational side of the universe, where consistency matters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by JRTjr, posted 08-16-2009 3:31 PM JRTjr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by JRTjr, posted 08-24-2009 12:44 AM greyseal has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3715 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 242 of 381 (519794)
08-17-2009 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by JRTjr
08-16-2009 3:31 PM


If God Is Real
quote:
One last thing; If God is real, then the choice is whether or not to do things His way. If God does not exist whether or not you believe does not matter.
There's that "if" again.
Actually if God is real, then God is real. Existence doesn't automatically imply choice. There is no choice to make unless the real God himself makes his prescence clearly known to the human race today and gives them a choice. God may not want to lead anymore or care whether we do things his way or not.
What does this have to do with God claiming omnipotence in the Bible?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by JRTjr, posted 08-16-2009 3:31 PM JRTjr has not replied

  
hERICtic
Member (Idle past 4774 days)
Posts: 371
Joined: 08-18-2009


Message 243 of 381 (519967)
08-18-2009 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Christian7
01-07-2005 10:23 PM


Luke 1:37
For with God nothing shall be impossible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Christian7, posted 01-07-2005 10:23 PM Christian7 has not replied

  
themasterdebator
Inactive Member


Message 244 of 381 (520150)
08-19-2009 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by JRTjr
08-16-2009 3:31 PM


Re: Wise as Serpents
One last thing; If God is real, then the choice is whether or not to do things His way. If God does not exist whether or not you believe does not matter.
What if the god that exists is not the Christian God? What if he is a god of rationality and logic that will reward those who base their belief on reason and he hates faith? Then it would very much matter if you believe.
Or, what if God is a sadistic jealous mischievous bastard? Maybe he wanted the jewish people to go around committing genocide and conquering other races for no reason. He is extremely powerful so it was impossible for the Jewish people to know he was not. Maybe the God that exists will reward evil and punish good. We have no way of knowing what some unevidenced being would or wouldn't do. You could end up suffering for eternity because you believe in a righteous God. Think of it this way. Which God is going to punish your more harshly, a just one or an unjust vindictive God? You would be much better off worshiping an evil god because he would punish you far more harshly than a righteous one under this line of reasoning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by JRTjr, posted 08-16-2009 3:31 PM JRTjr has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by JRTjr, posted 08-25-2009 12:59 PM themasterdebator has not replied

  
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 4563 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 245 of 381 (520785)
08-24-2009 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by greyseal
08-17-2009 6:36 AM


Re: Wise as Serpents
Dear Greyseal and Purpledawn,
Purpledawn writes:
No. Mere existence doesn't make them true. My list could just as easily be true.
I am not saying that the Mere existence (of God) ‘makes’ these statements true. I am saying that it is possible that the things I mentioned are true? (It is also possible that the things you mentioned are true; however we should look into how likely each proposition is.)
I understand that just because God exists that that, in and of itself, dose not ‘necessitate’ these statement being true; just that it opens up the possibility that these statement are true.
Greyseal writes:
I like your honesty. It scares me, I'd get a restraining order if we lived near each other, but I respect your honesty.
ordering your followers to commit mass murder, genocide, etc, etc sounds pretty bloodthirsty to me.
I’m not sure why you think you would need a restraining order; even if I were part of the military you would have to be a terrorist; committing treason; or working on behalf of a foreign power that we were actively at war with to have cause to fear me.
The, so called, ‘bloodthirsty’ acts you’re complaining about were directed to Israel’s enemies and to be carried out by Israel’s military forces. Their military was not as organized as, say, ours is today; but these were military objectives carried out by Israel’s militia (for a lack of a better word).
So you should have no reason to fear little old me. ;-}
Let me explain why God is not bloodthirsty this way.
When I was five years old my father came into the bathroom where my brother (one year younger then me) and I were taking a bath one day. He sat down on the commode and opened the box he had brought with him; taking out the pieces of our favorite race car set he began to brake them into small pieces and through them way.
Now, if I told you nothing else about my father or the circumstances surrounding this incident you may come to the conclusion that my dad was being vary mean to us. You may thing that he was a vicious angry man; that he had no right to tear up our toys like that.
However, the reason he did this is because of what we had done earlier in the day. You see, my brother and I had gone into a neighbor’s yard and took our time destroying their garden. We weren’t doing it maliciously we were just playing around. Having fun throwing tomatoes up against the garage and generally destroying everything in the garden.
I learned then to respect other people’s property.
The point of my story (true story) is that before you decide that God is a bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature you mite look at the big picture. Look at everything that the Bible has to say about God, and mankind.
Greyseal writes:
1a) yeah, your god. Proof your deity created everything is required. There are quite a few gods out there who'd like to step up and tell you how wrong you are - followers of Thor, Wotan, Zeus, FSM, Xenu, Krishna, Jupiter...
I do agree with you on this point. There are many gods out there that claim to be ‘the One true God’ and evidence is necessary to determine which one is. Will the ‘Real God’ please stand up? ;-}
I would hope that once we get passed the Your God is a bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature that I reject utterly. name calling, we could explore what, if anything, destiquishes my God from all the others; and whether or not there is sufficient evidence to prove which god is the real one.
Greyseal writes:
Judges 21. Need I say more? I could.
Ya, I guess you do. I do not see anywhere, in Judges 21, that God says ‘Thou shalt do rap’.
Greyseal writes:
If your god is real, he is a bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature that I reject utterly.
O.K.?!
Two things here.
One. My God is not a bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature. You may view Him as such, but that’s between you and Him.
Second. Even if My God is real, and He was a bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature you should be more afraid of Him ‘utterly rejecting’ you then you ‘utterly rejecting’ Him. After all, ‘If’ the Real God is a bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature he may just make your life miserable, or just kill you, for being obstinate.
My point here is that the fact that God has not struck you down for calling Him a bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature belies your notion that He is those things.
So either God does not actually exist or He is not the bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature you think Him to be.
I believe the latter.
Greyseal writes:
If he (God) is not real, you lot who feel so superior and smug as you hand down life and death judgements in the name of some santa-claus fairy story are some scary, misguided people.
On this point I can agree with you; however, that is a vary big ‘IF’.
I am confused about one thing though; are we talking about a bloodthirsty, murderous, petty god or a Santa Claus fairy story god?
One last point here; I am in no way superior to you or anyone else. I say with Paul that 15The saying is sure and true and worthy of full and universal acceptance, that Christ Jesus (the Messiah) came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am foremost.
Greyseal writes:
Excuse me, but I'll be over here, in the rational side of the universe, where consistency matters.
I can see where people can look at the things I am saying and think that I am being inconsistent. People have even looked at the Bible and said that it is full of inconsistencies. However, I would like you to consider one thing.
The world around us has many, seeming, inconsistencies in it (how can light be both a particle and a wave). Does this prove that the universe is not a rational place? I would say no; it just means that we, with everything we know, do not know everything. So, we should look at the evidence, without pre-conceptions (as hard as that is for us all), and figure out if these things actually contradict each other or if they are just paradoxes. I would also suggest this method with respect to the Bible.
Edited by JRTjr, : My apologies, I mislabel some of the quotes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by greyseal, posted 08-17-2009 6:36 AM greyseal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by greyseal, posted 08-24-2009 3:36 AM JRTjr has not replied
 Message 249 by purpledawn, posted 08-25-2009 8:11 PM JRTjr has not replied

  
greyseal
Member (Idle past 4120 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 246 of 381 (520805)
08-24-2009 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by JRTjr
08-24-2009 12:44 AM


Re: Wise as Serpents
JTRjr writes:
Dear Greyseal and Purpledawn,
Purpledawn writes:
No. Mere existence doesn't make them true. My list could just as easily be true.
I am not saying that the Mere existence (of God) ‘makes’ these statements true. I am saying that it is possible that the things I mentioned are true?
Of course it's possible. Ask any atheist if it's possible, they'll say yes. Ask if it's probable or likely, and you'll get a different answer.
Some people have used this to say that atheism is not a rational position - those people would be wrong. It is possible, one could say, that there is a teapot orbiting Mars that is too small to see with even our most powerful telescopes. Now, you cannot prove there is not...but it is possible, yes?
JTRjr writes:
Greyseal writes:
I like your honesty. It scares me, I'd get a restraining order if we lived near each other, but I respect your honesty.
I’m not sure why you think you would need a restraining order; even if I were part of the military you would have to be a terrorist; committing treason; or working on behalf of a foreign power that we were actively at war with to have cause to fear me.
Soldiers scare me for the same reason that fanatics scare me - they think they have the permission, the right and the duty to do things that under "normal" conditions people would not. I don't run and hide (despite the facetious comment) but my sentiment stands. It is worrying that people can think murder is justified for such non-personal reasons (the abortion doctor who was murdered because of his work, for example - but that deserves another topic). The issue I have with religious fanatics is how far they take things over such as naming a teddy bear after a boy, who happens to share the name "muhammed" with a religious icon. Or the bombs and death-threats over ten silly cartoons (several of which were not critical of their prophet, one was rather positive). Or the author who had a religious fatwah handed down to him over his book, "the satanic verses", or the film-maker who was shot over his contraversial movie...
Religious people get inclined to add "blasphemy" to your short list of reasons to kill, and blasphemy is an easy thing to commit, and then it matters that it's so easy to demand blood.
*snip* the allegory*
JTRjr writes:
The point of my story (true story) is that before you decide that God is a bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature you mite look at the big picture. Look at everything that the Bible has to say about God, and mankind.
destroying toys to prove a point, and ordering destruction, murder and rape to prove a point are two rather extremely different acts. What's bloodthirsty isn't the fight or the war, but that innocent women and children were also ordered dead, and the virgins taken as war-spoil and trophies.
Greyseal writes:
1a) yeah, your god. Proof your deity created everything is required. There are quite a few gods out there who'd like to step up and tell you how wrong you are - followers of Thor, Wotan, Zeus, FSM, Xenu, Krishna, Jupiter...
I do agree with you on this point. There are many gods out there that claim to be ‘the One true God’ and evidence is necessary to determine which one is. Will the ‘Real God’ please stand up? ;-}
I'm glad you agree.
Greyseal writes:
Judges 21. Need I say more? I could.
Ya, I guess you do. I do not see anywhere, in Judges 21, that God says ‘Thou shalt do rap’.
OK:
Judges 21, 10: So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children. 11 "This is what you are to do," they said. "Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin." 12 They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan.
(ok, killing even women and children, and stealing the virgins, yes? ...skipping forwards a bit, it doesn't change the context)
19 But look, there is the annual festival of the LORD in Shiloh, to the north of Bethel, and east of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem, and to the south of Lebonah."
20 So they instructed the Benjamites, saying, "Go and hide in the vineyards 21 and watch. When the girls of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, then rush from the vineyards and each of you seize a wife from the girls of Shiloh and go to the land of Benjamin. 22 When their fathers or brothers complain to us, we will say to them, 'Do us a kindness by helping them, because we did not get wives for them during the war, and you are innocent, since you did not give your daughters to them.' "
23 So that is what the Benjamites did. While the girls were dancing, each man caught one and carried her off to be his wife. Then they returned to their inheritance and rebuilt the towns and settled in them.
So they took the virgins.
Of course, you could say, if you were an apologetic, that obviously the girls wanted husbands and it wasn't rape, right? right?
Greyseal writes:
If your god is real, he is a bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature that I reject utterly.
and yeah, that still stands.
Second. Even if My God is real, and He was a bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature you should be more afraid of Him ‘utterly rejecting’ you then you ‘utterly rejecting’ Him. After all, ‘If’ the Real God is a bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature he may just make your life miserable, or just kill you, for being obstinate.
way to go to prove a point. not. if your god is the one true god, he should already be extremely pissed at me for eating pork, shellfish and wearing cotton/polyester blond socks. Saying that I think he's an idiot for such arbitrary rules would only be icing on the cake.
My point here is that the fact that God has not struck you down for calling Him a bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature belies your notion that He is those things.
...or he doesn't exist. Or isn't what you think he is.
So either God does not actually exist or He is not the bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature you think Him to be.
..or see previous answer.
I believe the latter.
good for you!
I am confused about one thing though; are we talking about a bloodthirsty, murderous, petty god or a Santa Claus fairy story god?
I'll take it slow - IF he exists as the OT says he does, he's a nasty piece of work. If he doesn't exist, he's a fairy story similar to santa, the toothfairy or the easter bunny. Just because I call him a fairy story doesn't mean he can't be a bloodthirsty one. Read the original red riding hood...
Greyseal writes:
Excuse me, but I'll be over here, in the rational side of the universe, where consistency matters.
I can see where people can look at the things I am saying and think that I am being inconsistent. People have even looked at the Bible and said that it is full of inconsistencies. However, I would like you to consider one thing.
The world around us has many, seeming, inconsistencies in it (how can light be both a particle and a wave). Does this prove that the universe is not a rational place? I would say no; it just means that we, with everything we know, do not know everything. So, we should look at the evidence, without pre-conceptions (as hard as that is for us all), and figure out if these things actually contradict each other or if they are just paradoxes. I would also suggest this method with respect to the Bible.
I've never said you're inconsistent. Unless you tell me that god is love, and god is peace...and that god demands the death of those who says he isn't.
The Bible IS full of inconsistencies. If you didn't have your preconceptions that the bible is the word of god, you'd probably see that too.
The big problem with the bible is that people HAVE been looking at it without preconceptions (namely, that's it's all literally true), they HAVE been looking at the evidence (galaxies are so far away, the world is older than implied by the bible if it were literally true, various methods of dating give us an earth older than 6000 years by several orders of magnitude, and so on).
If you could say why the fall happened if god knows all that could happen (ie, why it was bad, if it was necessary), whether god couldn't find adam and eve when they hid (if he knows all, how can they hide?) and so on, without saying "god works in mysterious ways" and in a logical manner, you'd go a lot further than most theists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by JRTjr, posted 08-24-2009 12:44 AM JRTjr has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by JRTjr, posted 08-27-2009 3:02 AM greyseal has not replied

  
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 4563 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 247 of 381 (521028)
08-25-2009 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by themasterdebator
08-19-2009 3:59 PM


Re: Wise as Serpents
Dear Themasterdebator,
First, thank you for your posting; I think you and I are going to have a lot of fun debating.
Themasterdebator writes:
What if the god that exists is not the Christian God? What if he is a god of rationality and logic that will reward those who base their belief on reason and he hates faith? Then it would very much matter if you believe.
Or, what if God is a sadistic jealous mischievous bastard?
No matter ‘Whom’ or, for that matter, ‘What’ God is, or what He says or does, my point still remains If God is real; then the choice is whether or not to do things His way. If God does not exist; whether or not you believe does not matter.
Themasterdebator writes:
Jewish people to go around committing genocide and conquering other races for no reason.
If there were no reason, as you put it, the fact still remains that If God is real; then the choice is whether or not to do things His way.
I would, however, say that ‘If God is real’ and ‘He required anyone to do anything’ He would have a reason for it. He may not explain Himself to us, but He would have a reason none the less. A Being of such Power, Authority, and Wisdom would have a reason for doing the things He did; would you not agree?
Themasterdebator writes:
Maybe the God that exists will reward evil and punish good. We have no way of knowing what some unevidenced being would or wouldn't do.
You are right that we would have no way of knowing what some un-evidenced being would or wouldn't do.{emphases added}
However, this is not the case with the Creator of the universes. There is evidence of His existence (I would even go so far as to say ‘overwhelming’ evidence). There is also evidence of how God operates inside and outside of our universe.
I’ll give you an example: Threw scientific discovery we have found many ‘Laws’ that govern our universe; although we have found these ‘Laws’ to be paradoxical, at times, we know that it is impossible for a law of ‘Physics’ to directly contradict, say, a ‘Law’ of ‘Biology’; or vice versa.
Since we have evidence that these ‘Laws’ have not change from the foundation of the universe, we can conclude that the ‘Real God’ will not change his mined just to fit the situation.
We can also conclude that He is a God of ‘Law’; not lawlessness; and because natural ‘Laws’ do not contradict each other we can deduce that God’s ‘Laws’ will neither contradict each other nor the ‘Laws’ of nature.
We can also except that anything that the Creator does may have paradoxical applications; in other words, some of the things He does may not make sense to us until we gain more understanding of what He is doing and/or Whom He is.
Themasterdebator writes:
You could end up suffering for eternity because you believe in a righteous God. Think of it this way. Which God is going to punish your more harshly, a just one or an unjust vindictive God? You would be much better off worshiping an evil god because he would punish you far more harshly than a righteous one under this line of reasoning.
You have a few good points here; however, I would like to suggest that whatever God deems ‘Good’ is what ‘Good’ is, and whatever God deems ‘Righteous’ is what ‘Righteous’ is. I would say that God’s standards are what define what ‘Right’ and what ‘Wrong’ are. This goes back to If God is real; then the choice is whether or not to do things His way.
20For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],(B)
21Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and [c]godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.
22Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves].


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by themasterdebator, posted 08-19-2009 3:59 PM themasterdebator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by NosyNed, posted 08-25-2009 1:13 PM JRTjr has replied
 Message 250 by greyseal, posted 08-26-2009 10:13 AM JRTjr has seen this message but not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9012
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 248 of 381 (521030)
08-25-2009 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by JRTjr
08-25-2009 12:59 PM


Good and Evil
You have a few good points here; however, I would like to suggest that whatever God deems ‘Good’ is what ‘Good’ is, and whatever God deems ‘Righteous’ is what ‘Righteous’ is. I would say that God’s standards are what define what ‘Right’ and what ‘Wrong’ are. This goes back to If God is real; then the choice is whether or not to do things His way.
To this God I will continue to apply the same as I would to an earthly tyrant ( at least I hope I would since I have not been unlucky enough to be tested on this). If I judge him to be evil I will not choose his way. The fact that the tyrant is omnipowerful instead of just very powerful shouldn't make a difference (though in a practical way, unfortunately, it might).
Many men and women have lived and died as heroes because they did not bow to the power of evil. Those who, like you appear to be doing, that say "Might makes right" are those who aid and abet the evil tyrants.
If your god is the ultimate evil tyrant then you are splashed with the blood that he demands from his innocent victims.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by JRTjr, posted 08-25-2009 12:59 PM JRTjr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by JRTjr, posted 08-27-2009 3:34 AM NosyNed has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3715 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 249 of 381 (521086)
08-25-2009 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by JRTjr
08-24-2009 12:44 AM


Probable vs Possible
quote:
I am not saying that the Mere existence (of God) ‘makes’ these statements true. I am saying that it is possible that the things I mentioned are true? (It is also possible that the things you mentioned are true; however we should look into how likely each proposition is.)
Being likely means a high probability of occurring or being true. So show me that your list is more likely than mine to be true. Both lists are in Message 235.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by JRTjr, posted 08-24-2009 12:44 AM JRTjr has not replied

  
greyseal
Member (Idle past 4120 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 250 of 381 (521167)
08-26-2009 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by JRTjr
08-25-2009 12:59 PM


Re: Wise as Serpents
just out of interest, what did you think about the passages in Judges 21 that I pointed out?
Do you have something to say about adding blasphemy to capital crimes?
...or do I win?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by JRTjr, posted 08-25-2009 12:59 PM JRTjr has seen this message but not replied

  
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 4563 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 251 of 381 (521334)
08-27-2009 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by greyseal
08-24-2009 3:36 AM


Re: Wise as Serpents
Dear Greyseal,
Greyseal writes:
Of course it's possible. Ask any atheist if it's possible, they'll say yes. Ask if it's probable or likely, and you'll get a different answer.
Some people have used this to say that atheism is not a rational position - those people would be wrong. It is possible, one could say, that there is a teapot orbiting Mars that is too small to see with even our most powerful telescopes. Now, you cannot prove there is not...but it is possible, yes?
So we can agree that it is possible that the things I mentioned are true? now, as you mention, we can go to how probable it is that each of these things (the ones I mentioned and the one you mentioned) are true.
Let’s start with the first one. If God is real then either God has a purpose or reason for creating everything the way in which it is made? or He is flying by the seat of his pants. Considering the number and complexity of the Laws that govern this universe I believe it is reasonable to conclude that God is not ‘flying by the seat of His pants rather that He has a purpose or reason for creating everything.
Greyseal writes:
Soldiers scare me for the same reason that fanatics scare me - they think they have the permission, the right and the duty to do things that under "normal" conditions people would not.
So, I take it that you’re scared of Police Officers, Federal Agents, Firemen, etc. Each of these positions requires that individuals (Policemen, Agents, or Firemen) do things that individuals, would not or could not legally do on their own.
There are two kinds of fear; ‘rational fear’ and ‘irrational fear’. ‘Rational fear’ causes one to be cautious in dangerous situations. ‘Irrational fear’ causes one to be afraid of things that, more than likely, will not hurt us.
There is no reason to fear a person whom actually believes and follows what the Bible says. In other word, if you lived next to me there is no chance that I am going to come to your house one day and kill you and or your family.
Greyseal writes:
The issue I have with religious fanatics is how far they take things over such as naming a teddy bear after a boy, who happens to share the name "muhammed" with a religious icon. Or the bombs and death-threats over ten silly cartoons (several of which were not critical of their prophet, one was rather positive). Or the author who had a religious fatwah handed down to him over his book, "the satanic verses", or the film-maker who was shot over his contraversial movie...
Agreed!
Individuals whom claim that God has told them to commit acts like you describe are not acting in accordance with Scripture (the Canonized Bible). Individuals, under Gods Law, are not aloud to kill people. Period!
The government is only allowed to execute people under certain circumstances. (War and the braking of certain Laws)
Greyseal writes:
Religious people get inclined to add "blasphemy" to your short list of reasons to kill, and blasphemy is an easy thing to commit, and then it matters that it's so easy to demand blood.
The reason that ‘Blasphemy’ is on the short list of reasons to kill is that it is the height of pride to mock God by using His Name slanderously.
I would like to point out here that if God were the bloodthirsty, murderous, petty god you seem to think Him to be would not the list of reasons to have someone killed be longer?
Greyseal writes:
So they took the virgins.
Of course, you could say, if you were an apologetic, that obviously the girls wanted husbands and it wasn't rape, right? right?
No!
My point has not changed: God did not tell these men to go do these things; nor did He tell them to take wives of these people. The Israelites were acting on their own accord (I.E. Apart from God’s instructions.) I reiterate that I do not see anywhere, in Judges 21, that God says ‘Thou shalt do rap’!
Greyseal writes:
My point here is that the fact that God has not struck you down for calling Him a bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature belies your notion that He is those things.
...or he doesn't exist. Or isn't what you think he is.
So either God does not actually exist or He is not the bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature you think Him to be.
..or see previous answer.
So, you’re saying that ether God doesn't exist or He is a bloodthirsty, murderous, petty little creature but he’s going to be kind to you? Because?? I mean; you would think that a bloodthirsty, murderous, petty god would jump at the chance to strike you down. Would he not?
Greyseal writes:
The Bible IS full of inconsistencies. If you didn't have your preconceptions that the bible is the word of god, you'd probably see that too.
O.K. If the Bible is full of inconsistencies Why don’t you run one or two past me? But please, make sure that it is actually an inconsistency. I do not mean to be rude here; however, I have gone down this road before. Please see Message #35 (in another forum)
Greyseal writes:
If you could say why the fall happened if god knows all that could happen (ie, why it was bad, if it was necessary), whether god couldn't find adam and eve when they hid (if he knows all, how can they hide?) and so on, without saying "god works in mysterious ways" and in a logical manner, you'd go a lot further than most theists.
This I can do.
On the question of: whether god couldn't find adam and eve when they hid (if he knows all, how can they hide?)
Do you remember being in school. (I’ve been out of school for twenty plus years. I won’t tell you how far over the twenty year mark that is.)
However, I remember sitting in class as the teacher droned on about something or other and then he or she would stop and ask us questions about the topic. (This was good for me because, unlike most of the other kids in my class, I was paying attention.)
Now, I ask the question; ‘was the teacher asking these questions because she did not know the answers?’ Or ‘was she asking the questions to prompt the class to think?’ In other words; were the questions for her benefit or ours?
See, when God asks a question, He is asking it for our benefit; not because He does not know the answer.
God knew exactly where they were; and why they were hiding. (Have you ever had a four year old hid partially behind a door thinking that; because they can’t see you; you can’t see them?)
The whole of creation is an object lesson for all of mankind; and the Angels for that matter.
(When God talks; even E.F. Hutton should listen.) ;-}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by greyseal, posted 08-24-2009 3:36 AM greyseal has not replied

  
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 4563 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 252 of 381 (521339)
08-27-2009 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by NosyNed
08-25-2009 1:13 PM


Re: Good and Evil
Dear NosyNed,
NosyNed writes:
To this God I will continue to apply the same as I would to an earthly tyrant
Two things here:
1. You assume that God is a tyrant. How many tyrants do you know that would allow Their own Son (a willing participant) to be sacrificed in your place to pay the penalty for your misconduct?
2. You (the creation) are setting standards for God (the Creator)?? How would you fell if the clay pot you just baked called you a tyrant and decided that you should be subject to it’s ideas of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’?
We, as God’s creation, are in no position to dictate what He ‘may’ or ‘may not’ do. Just as the pot has no authority over the potter.
20But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?(H)
21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?
{Romans 9: 20,21 Amplified Bible}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by NosyNed, posted 08-25-2009 1:13 PM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by cavediver, posted 08-27-2009 4:31 AM JRTjr has replied
 Message 255 by greyseal, posted 08-27-2009 5:09 AM JRTjr has replied
 Message 256 by NosyNed, posted 08-27-2009 10:16 AM JRTjr has replied
 Message 257 by Perdition, posted 08-27-2009 12:05 PM JRTjr has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3901 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 253 of 381 (521340)
08-27-2009 4:31 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by JRTjr
08-27-2009 3:34 AM


Re: Good and Evil
How many tyrants do you know that would allow Their own Son (a willing participant) to be sacrificed in your place to pay the penalty for your misconduct?
I think most tyrants wouldn't be that stupid: a tyrant decides a set of rules, and demands death to anyone who breaks them; he then decides that his own son can die instead, to appease himself, so that no-one else need die for breaking his own rules. Bizarre (though not as bizarre as the fact that I actually believed this for a large fraction of my life!)
How would you fell if the clay pot you just baked called you a tyrant and decided that you should be subject to it’s ideas of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’?
Do you think that a grown adult should subject themselves to their parents' notions of right and wrong?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by JRTjr, posted 08-27-2009 3:34 AM JRTjr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by JRTjr, posted 08-30-2009 4:27 PM cavediver has not replied

  
greyseal
Member (Idle past 4120 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 254 of 381 (521341)
08-27-2009 5:03 AM


off topic, but a salient point
why soldiers (and fanatics, they both share the same mindset) both scare me:
Amygdala
...because things like that happen, even with "good" people.
sorry the interject, I thought it important.

  
greyseal
Member (Idle past 4120 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 255 of 381 (521343)
08-27-2009 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by JRTjr
08-27-2009 3:34 AM


Re: Good and Evil
JTRjr writes:
We, as God’s creation, are in no position to dictate what He ‘may’ or ‘may not’ do. Just as the pot has no authority over the potter.
you can't get to an ought from an is. Just because you say god IS our creator, doesn't mean we OUGHT to do as he says.
If this mindset were taken to it's logical conclusion, our children (no matter how old) would always have to obey us, and us our parents. You may retort "honour thy mother and father", but we know our parents exist...
PS: you misunderstood my replies regarding what god is or isn't - I wasn't saying he was either non-existent or a tyrant, I was saying he was either non-existent or wasn't what you thought he was.
PPS: as far as god not allowing rape, either the bible is the word of god or it is the word of man, and either god can influence what people may or may not do or he can't. If the bible is the word of man, and god can disapprove of rape but not manage to stop it (presuming he exists), he is neither omnipotent nor omniscient, and therefore not much of a god. If you can't trust your priests to tell you what your god would allow or disallow, you either have bad priests or a useless god.
PPPS: inconsistencies and mistakes in the bible? There are hundreds. Thousands. It deserves several threads of it's own, and probably has them. From the failed prophecy of Tyre, to Egypt and it's lack of dragons, to the logistics of the ark, to the differing events during the resurrection, to the worrying cases of non-canon books being referenced from canonized volumes, to the failed prophecies of Jesus' return within the lifetime of his followers. It's far too big a subject to cover in a footnote, and there's the same weaselling of answers via context and goalpost-shifting as you've got over things like rape and incest. The biggest inconsistency of all is how many people get the same set of books to prove wildly different things depending on what they want it to say.
Edited by greyseal, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by JRTjr, posted 08-27-2009 3:34 AM JRTjr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by JRTjr, posted 08-30-2009 9:41 PM greyseal has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024