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Member Posts: 9207 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.4 |
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Author | Topic: Sotomayor, the GOP and Latinos | |||||||||||||||||||
Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
Because it isn't like Media Matters provides the complete quotation in full context. You didn't even look at their coverage of Beck, did you? Why would I need to? You do understand that the cable media outlets INTENTIONALLY cater to certain demographics, right? It's no mystery that Beck is on the right and Olbermann is on the left. The entire premise of the Hannity and Colmes show is to present a spin on both sides. That's the whole friggin' point! Where it becomes a problem is when the major networks show bias on the nightly news. That's not journalism, that's favoritism. The nightly news is supposed to have a kind of clinical detachment. They're not opinion columns like Beck, Hannity and Colmes, and Olbermann are.
You mean the Republicans aren't calling her a racist? No, I mean the Republicans are calling her racist. Who fucking cares, as if this is some how a new revelalation? Is this thread about Republicans and Democrats think, what the media thinks, or is this thread about what we on the forum collectively think? Because I'm not really sure at this point.
And you showed yourself to be precisely as described: Trying to deflect the criticism by claiming, "The Democrats do it, too!" Because hypocrisy is an ugly trait. It's horseshit to point fingers at one side as if the other side isn't doing the same exact thing. Democrats and Republicans are just different sides of the same exact coin. The point is that it's the same coin. Quite frankly the polarization is tearing the country apart. There's no more North versus South... Now it is Democrat versus Republican. It's a tragedy. I really wish things could be different, because all it does is weaken us from within.
Now, I have my suspicions as to why, but I won't play internet psychiatrist here. Oh noes!!! Speculate the night away. Doesn't bother me in the least. "Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Sensory Depravation responds to me:
quote: I have every right to question your ability to speak with any sort of authority or validity with regard to someone else's statements. I do not need to know what her opinions are in order to show that you don't know what they are, either. Since it is clear that the only thing you have managed to acquire is what other people have told you to think about her, then it is obvious to all but the most casual observer that you don't know what she thinks. Especially since it is trivial to find the actual statements she made and find that she didn't say what you were told she said. Please, let's not be disingenuous and think that I'm talking about a physical string of phonemes issuing forth from her mouth. I'm referring to the meaning behind the words. For example, to note that a single sentence out of an hour-long speech is not exactly indicative of what she was trying to say.
quote: Do you have any evidence of me having done so? I certainly admit to being a liberal, but I don't recall discussing Alito or Roberts much. Certainly not with you. I would point out that Alito said much the same thing as Sotomayor (practically word for word) with regard to her statements about how one's past experiences affect one's ability to judge, and somehow it wasn't considered a problem with the Republican said it. You were talking about "pandering"?
quote: I personally don't believe that with regard to you and point out that even if it were true for you, it is a logical error to do so. Yes, yes, I know you said, "feasible," but let's not pretend that means you pay attention.
quote: I never said otherwise. What I pointed out is that all you know "straight from her mouth" would fit on one side of a piece of paper. Three thousand decisions she was involved in, and the big thing everybody's talking about is a single sentence she made as part of an hour-long speech? Let's not pretend that you are "distinguishing the good from the bad on their own merits." You're letting other people do your thinking for you.
quote: There's so much wrong with that statement that it's hard to know where to begin. First, opinions are formulated on the flimsiest of justifications. Let's not pretend that you don't do so. Second, all you have are media snippets. It's clear that you haven't actually bothered to trace back the statements she is reported to have made to discover their full and complete context.
quote: Huh? A single sentence out of an hour-long speech is enough to tell you what she was really saying in the speech? That isn't "her words." That's what the right-wing echo machine wants you to know, hoping against hope that you won't bother to do your homework to find out if they were actually being truthful in their claims and weren't hacking the statements to shreds in order to make a political point. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Sensory Depravation responds to me:
quote:quote: Because if you're going to accuse a source as being "biased," then it would help if you had actually examined their statements in order to be able to justify that claim. Since you haven't examined Media Matters' coverage of beck, how do you know that it is "biased"? You see, rather than providing a single sentence out of a larger statement and reacting to it, Media Matters provides the full and complete context. How is that "biased"?
quote: Indeed. The conservative bias of the major network shows is very sad. It has long been established that the common media, out of fear of being called "biased" by the conservatives, have bent over backwards to provide coverage of their claims without any analysis or journalistic effort to investigate the accuracy. "Al Gore said he invented the internet!" Well, no...no, he didn't. He didn't even imply it. But a conservative fool said he did and the mass media picked up on it and ran with it without any investigation to see if it were true. Instead, mass media have become not only stenographers, they have become incompetent stenographers: They make stuff up.
quote: But nobody has said the Democrats don't do it. This thread was about the Repbulicans actions. Therefore, what does the action of Democrats have to do with anything? Just because somebody else breaks a law, that justifies your crime?
quote: And thus, jaywalking is equivalent to murder.
quote: Indeed. And it will keep being a problem so long as the mass media runs scared from journalism and the populace think anybody who tells them something other than what they already think is "biased." And it would help if people stopped trying to play the "I'm an indepdent" game when they're not. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4259 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined: |
Also, for the rest of you how do you see this issue? Is it an issue in the anglo community? Do you see the racism spouting from the GOP, Rush, Beck, Buchanan and O'Reilly? I see it as the pres trying to put an activist judge on the supreme court. It is not really an issue in the anglo? (what do you mean by anglo) community, I think the country is starting into its death throes, and I am rather apathetic as to what is going on down the road. Racist GOP!?! Roflmao no way. I think you are confused.
Nobody cares more that Sotomayor is a latina more than she does. It's like a little badge of honor to her as if something beyond her control was some kind of achievement. To hear a judge, nomiated to the highest court in the land, pandering to people of her own race smacks of bias. I don't like anything about that and I don't see how any objective person would. Word.Wonderfully stated. I find it rather lame they toot their own horn all the time about their diversity. You spoke as if all anglo's gather together and think in unison for one another. That's not true. Besides that, what is meant by Anglo? Do you mean white? Because if I am to infer that Latino I would say Hispanic, but If I were to Infer Anglo I would say British descendants. Hispanics can by definition be white people. I am White, but I am not Anglo. I am more German Ancestry than anything else. There are a lot of German Descendants in Places like Paraguay, Argentina, and Mexico, who are just as white as I am, yet who were born in Latin America, and speak Spanish as their Native Language, who are culturally part of these nations. Are they Latino and White? I would say they are. Your divining line is not very clear as based on race/color.
BS. Listen to the rhetoric from Tancredo and Beck and Limbaugh. But this is not a thread about illegal immigration. BS to your BS. Latino is not a Race. Mestizo sort of is, but Latinos are racist themselves against Mestizos, and always have been. I think it quite odd that some one of PR descent would think they could empathize over a border issue as they are natural born citizens because they are from PR.
Personally I am excited about Sonia becoming the best qualified supreme court justice. There has been a hole in the court since Thurgood Marshall in representing the breadth of the american experience, and she can be a counter to the bias, inherent sexism and racism of the white male dominant court.
I hope you realize Clarence Thomas is not a white guy.
Why is it bad that someone is proud of their heritage?
You mean like White Pride World Wide? If Latinos are supposed to be left wing, please explain Cubans to me.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
If Latinos are supposed to be left wing, please explain Cubans to me.
How 'bout you first explain Cubans to us. Then we can see where you're thoughts are based from. I'm Cuban and liberal, so are all of my Cuban friends. I think you mean Cubans who hold public office or the older Cuban community? However... Explain Alex Penelas to me.
quote: Penelas won in Miami-Dade County running as a Democrat, how could this be possible if the majority of Cubans, as you implied, are right-wing? - Oni If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little. ~George Carlin
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bob_gray Member (Idle past 5044 days) Posts: 243 From: Virginia Joined: |
Artemis Entreri writes: I see it as the pres trying to put an activist judge on the supreme court. It is interesting that you hold this position since I have seen nothing in her judicial record which would indicate that she was "activist". Of course you may be defining the word differently than I do. Could you expand on what you feel is an "activist judge" and how Judge Sotomayor fits that definition? Some specific cases of "activism" would really be helpful.
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4259 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined: |
historically Cubans are much more conservative than other Latino-Americans from other nationalities. its common knowledge, I am not making anything up.
being a democrat does not make you a liberal.
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onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
historically Cubans are much more conservative than other Latino-Americans from other nationalities. its common knowledge, I am not making anything up. First, Cubans are not Latin-American so they are not comparable to other Latin-Americans. And like I stated, the older generation was recognized to be conservative, but then again so is every older generation by comparison to the younger generation. Furthermore, one of the major reasons for Cubans siding with republicans, which is why I imagine you think they were conservative, was due to their reaction to JFK during the Bay of Pigs and his agreement with Russia that pretty much assured Castro freedom to govern however he pleased. Most older Cubans hate the democratic party and lean more toward the republican party for this reason. Other than that, there is no evidence that supports your claim that Cubans are usually conservative, especially not now in this day and age. One, because what we now call 'Cubans' in the US are mostly 2nd generation, US born people, like me. Therefore the old opinions have left the community and the new generation of US born Cubans are as prone to being conservative as much as any other citizen in the US. And two, Cubans are not just republicans anymore and don't just vote republican anymore, as I showed you with Penelas winning in Dade-County, so there is no evidence that they are conservative at all.
being a democrat does not make you a liberal.
You're right, but being a republican doesn't make one conservative either, so why would Cubans be anymore prone to being conservative than any other nationality? - Oni If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little. ~George Carlin
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
Other than that, there is no evidence that supports your claim that Cubans are usually conservative, especially not now in this day and age. One, because what we now call 'Cubans' in the US are mostly 2nd generation, US born people, like me. Therefore the old opinions have left the community and the new generation of US born Cubans are as prone to being conservative as much as any other citizen in the US. While it is true that there is a marked shift in Cuban-Americans from generally Republican to generally Democrat, that doesn't really negate the historical fact. Cubans have typically sided with Republican policies, likely because it is the exact opposite of what Castro was.
You're right, but being a republican doesn't make one conservative either, so why would Cubans be anymore prone to being conservative than any other nationality? All he was saying was that per capita, of most hispanic nations, Cubans have a long history of right-leaning. But I certainly agree that those lines are far more blurred now, more so than they've ever been, showing that shift. The Democrat party is just dominating these days, even in historically conservative places like the South, or Miami for that matter, as many of the younger generation view conservative ideals as being obsolete and out of touch with the needs of today's people. "I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death. " Thomas Paine
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onifre Member (Idle past 2982 days) Posts: 4854 From: Dark Side of the Moon Joined: |
Hi Hyro,
Cubans have typically sided with Republican policies, likely because it is the exact opposite of what Castro was. There's no question on that, but that wasn't what he said. He said 'conservative', and while I agree that they were predominantely republican, I don't see the point being made for Cubans being mostly 'conservative' without taking into consideration the times you're talking about. There was no liberal -vs- conservative politics for the older generation, there was only one way, just like in the US. In the 50's everyone in the US would be, by comparison to todays standards, considered conservative. Just like in Cuba in the 50's. That generation of Cubans was as conservative as their US counter part.
All he was saying was that per capita, of most hispanic nations, Cubans have a long history of right-leaning. Like I wrote, the older generation supported the republican party more so than the democratic party, but this is not the same as being labeled a 'conservative' or 'liberal'. ALL older generations were more conservative than liberal, it has nothing to do with being Cuban or any other nationality.
The Democrat party is just dominating these days, even in historically conservative places like the South, or Miami for that matter, as many of the younger generation view conservative ideals as being obsolete and out of touch with the needs of today's people. Miami is historically conservative!? Since when, Hyro? And wouldn't you say that all younger generations are viewing conservative ideals as being a bit outdated? Young people will be less conservative than the previous generation regardless of nationality. Now, were Cubans more prone to being republicans in the past? Yes. But that wasn't his point, he said conservative. My point is that in the past, people were more conservative than today, regardless of nationality. - Oni Edited by onifre, : No reason given. If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little. ~George Carlin
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
In the 50's everyone in the US would be, by comparison to todays standards, considered conservative. Just like in Cuba in the 50's. That generation of Cubans was as conservative as their US counter part. I suppose you have a point, but even still, the majority of Cubans I know, which is a lot of them, are still quite conservative. But I agree that like the current trend is a shifting away from conservatism to liberalism.
ALL older generations were more conservative than liberal, it has nothing to do with being Cuban or any other nationality. Today's liberal is tomorrows conservative.
Miami is historically conservative!? Since when, Hyro? Well, alright, not conservative so much as there is still a palpably strong conservative base. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the last 3 elections for Miami-Dade were certainly Blue.
And wouldn't you say that all younger generations are viewing conservative ideals as being a bit outdated? Yes, and as I said, today's liberal is tomorrow's conservative.
Now, were Cubans more prone to being republicans in the past? Yes. But that wasn't his point, he said conservative. My point is that in the past, people were more conservative than today, regardless of nationality. Well, Republicans are typically conservative. I'm sure it was a generalization based on observation. "I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death. " Thomas Paine
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