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Author Topic:   Transition from chemistry to biology
onifre
Member (Idle past 2969 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 387 of 415 (514683)
07-10-2009 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 386 by New Cat's Eye
07-10-2009 5:06 PM


Re: Eternal Life
Spontaneous is not meant to mean "instantaneously", its meant to mean "that it happens all on its own".
Thanks for the correction CS.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 386 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-10-2009 5:06 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2969 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 393 of 415 (514857)
07-13-2009 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 388 by greentwiga
07-11-2009 9:09 PM


Re: Eternal Life
Currently, though, it is a faith step to say that the long self replicating molecule formed spontaneously, just as it is a faith step to say that God guided the formation of the combination that became self replicating. Until we have proof, either statement is a faith step (or an unproven hypothesis, if you will.)
If both god and abiogenesis are unproven hypothesis, would evidence of abiogenesis disprove god?
Would you also say that planet formation, since we haven't replicated it, is a faith-based theory?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 388 by greentwiga, posted 07-11-2009 9:09 PM greentwiga has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by greentwiga, posted 07-13-2009 6:28 PM onifre has replied
 Message 396 by greentwiga, posted 07-13-2009 6:33 PM onifre has not replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2969 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 398 of 415 (514887)
07-13-2009 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by greentwiga
07-13-2009 6:28 PM


Re: Eternal Life
You are extending the idea too far.
We'll see...
I know that the combination of events that created a stable earth are extremely rare.
How do you know that?
In fact, it is currently beleived that terrestrial planets, such as ours, are quite common throughout the galaxy.
We have shown how that happened on the computer.
It's still based off of a theory.
Still, is that just random events that pop up around the rare star?
Is there any evidence that shows otherwise?
If it is just random, that does not affect my faith in God.
It should if one makes the claim that god was needed for planets to form. If I held to that belief, and someone showed me planets forming naturally, I'd question why I believe in god in the first place.
In the same way, proving abiogenesis would not prove or disprove God.
If one is using god in the same manner as the planets, then abiogenesis would make me question why I believe in god.
"I believe it was random events." or "I believe it was guided by God."
Since there is no evidence for god, supernatural guidance doesn't seem necessary. The only evidence for god would be by inference. But that would mean that the evidence for god is tenative and what god is inferred to, once proven to be natural, would remove god from the equation.
At that point one would have to question why one believes in god to begin with.
It's the god of the gaps argument.
Some of the hypothesis will never be proven and they will stay at this belief level.
Which hypothesis specifically?
- Oni

If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little.
~George Carlin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by greentwiga, posted 07-13-2009 6:28 PM greentwiga has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 400 by greentwiga, posted 07-13-2009 7:25 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2969 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 401 of 415 (514893)
07-13-2009 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 400 by greentwiga
07-13-2009 7:25 PM


Re: Eternal Life
First, we need a sun producing a habitable amount of light, not red dwarfs or the Blue giants. Then, Terrestrial planets need to be in the habitable zone. So far, we have done a better job of showing Jovian planets in the hot zone but too close to the habitable zone to allow a terrestrial planet there. The solar system also needs a flyswatter, ie Jupiter, in the right place to sop up comets, else we would still be getting too many dinosaur killer comet strikes to allow the more complex life, according to planet scientists. The main problem is that the planet to moon ratio is usually on the order of Mars to Phobos. It is extremely difficult for an earth to capture a moon the size of ours. It computer simulation is the only one so far that does so and agrees with the rest of the facts, such as the moon having no heavy core. Without the moon, the earth would wobble from upright to lying on its side and scientists say that would make complex life impossible.
For the purpose of abiogenesis, which is what this thread is about, none of those specifics are needed. All that would be needed is a terrestrial planet with a given amount of elements. A single cell, that's all we are regarding as life...for the purpose of this thread.
It's like Woodpeckers. There have been billions of species on this planet, how many wood pecking birds have there been? However, how many birds that can fly are there? Wood pecking isn't a pre-qualifier to being considered a bird, just as specifics about moons and "zones" aren't a pre-qualifier for a terrestrial planet that can produce life. A terrestrial planet has the potential for life, the right type of setting can extend that simple life to where we are now.
And what we know about the universe, when it comes to terrestrial planets, is very little.
I can't state which ones will remain unprovable. One can guess. The assemblage of all the building blocks into a self-replicating chain looks like a better candidate. You could call it a gaps theory, but I am not going so far. I am just stating that we don't know and can't say at this time. We can just say, "I believe it happened this way."
Let me ask the question this way. Do you believe "God did it" is a good hypothesis? If so, what objective evidence is being used to support it as a hypothesis?
- Oni

If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little.
~George Carlin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by greentwiga, posted 07-13-2009 7:25 PM greentwiga has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 403 by greentwiga, posted 07-13-2009 8:47 PM onifre has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2969 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 407 of 415 (514960)
07-14-2009 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 403 by greentwiga
07-13-2009 8:47 PM


Re: Eternal Life
I was just challenging you to prove that it could not have had God's touch in that event, or even show that you have a chance to prove that it did not.
The burden of proof lies on anyone claiming god's existance. They must first prove he exists, has supernatural abilities and has a hand at altering reality via supernatural powers.
Before any of that is proven, I cannot do anything with the concept of god. Neither ascribe it certain powers or say that he has a hand in nature.
In other words, for me to tell you what unicorns eat I would first have to prove that they exist. Equally, for me to tell you what god does and doesn't do I would first have to prove that he exists.
- Oni

If it's true that our species is alone in the universe, then I'd have to say that the universe aimed rather low and settled for very little.
~George Carlin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 403 by greentwiga, posted 07-13-2009 8:47 PM greentwiga has not replied

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