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Author Topic:   Does What the Bleep Do We Know have any close cousins?
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 16 of 24 (513813)
07-01-2009 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Purpledbear
07-01-2009 5:36 PM


Baseball Analogies
What kind of resistance does adding a tool intended to observe an electron add to an electron?
One determines the position of an electron by bouncing photons off of it. That's kind of like Nolan Ryan attempting to determine your location by throwing baseballs at you. I'm failry sure that would alter your behavior.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
Thomas Jefferson

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Purpledbear
Member (Idle past 4772 days)
Posts: 31
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 17 of 24 (513815)
07-01-2009 6:02 PM


If correct
So, in conclusion let me say if my previous statements were correct. I agree with the OP and understand building blocks of life lack awareness. And our ability to interact with them is just not possible. Just as ram can not 'compute' or interact with the harddrive until built into a computer on its own a building block of life can not be aware until a more complex creature has evolved.

  
Purpledbear
Member (Idle past 4772 days)
Posts: 31
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 18 of 24 (513817)
07-01-2009 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by lyx2no
07-01-2009 5:54 PM


Re: Baseball Analogies
quote:
One determines the position of an electron by bouncing photons off of it. That's kind of like Nolan Ryan attempting to determine your location by throwing baseballs at you. I'm failry sure that would alter your behavior.
The video I watched implied, I thought, the measuring device being used was some sort of camera or similar device(high powered microscope). I believe I felt this way because their claim was when observed the electron reacted. My mind did not substitute the word measure for observe.
So, it is not the fact that the electrons are acting differently because of interaction/resistance or force that most find 'queer' We have known for years when some type of force is put on an object it will react. Rather it is the self expression, the way the electron reacts to the interaction that is queer.
Edited by Purpledbear, : No reason given.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 19 of 24 (513825)
07-01-2009 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Purpledbear
07-01-2009 6:12 PM


Re: Baseball Analogies
Purpledbear writes:
The video I watched implied, I thought, the measuring device being used was some sort of camera or similar device(high powered microscope). I believe I felt this way because their claim was when observed the electron reacted. My mind did not substitute the word measure for observe.
When we deal with the quantum world, there is no such thing as direct observation. We could bounce stuff onto what we want to "observe", we could have them fly through a cloud chamber, we could even smash them together and detect the radiation.
So, it is not the fact that the electrons are acting differently because of interaction/resistance or force that most find 'queer' We have known for years when some type of force is put on an object it will react. Rather it is the self expression, the way the electron reacts to the interaction that is queer.
Huh?

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greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3427 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 20 of 24 (513828)
07-01-2009 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Purpledbear
07-01-2009 5:53 PM


Re: I got it!
If you and I don't understand the whole thing well, we are in good company. Einstein didn't understand it well either. I accept what is and wait for another to develop a unified theory to explain it scientifically/mathematically. Your analogy looks helpful but expect some PhD to say pendantically, "that is not it at all." LOL
Vote to legalize safe sex marriage.

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Purpledbear
Member (Idle past 4772 days)
Posts: 31
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 21 of 24 (513831)
07-01-2009 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by greentwiga
07-01-2009 8:26 PM


Re: I got it!
Taz did not like my analogy. I think I get it a little more now?

This message is a reply to:
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greentwiga
Member (Idle past 3427 days)
Posts: 213
From: Santa
Joined: 06-05-2009


Message 22 of 24 (513833)
07-01-2009 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Purpledbear
07-01-2009 8:47 PM


Re: I got it!
You got it good enough.

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Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 24 (514771)
07-12-2009 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Perdition
07-01-2009 2:03 PM


Collapse
Cave Diver or SonGoku might be better resources, but as far as I know, collapsing the wave function is more a mathematical thing.
The collapse of the wavefunction and what it means pretty much depends on what you think of the wavefunction itself.
In truth there are strong arguments both against
(a) Taking an entirely non-realist view, that it is just a mathematical thing
and
(b) Taking a totally realist view that collapse is an actual physical process which occurs literally.
Of course there are several things to suggest that there are elements of both in collapse.
First of all "observation" or "measurement" in quantum mechanics means one thing, a quantum object leaves a trace or evidence of some of its properties in a large/classical object. The large classical object can be a measuring device in a lab, it can be a cloud of gas, it could be the retina in the back of the eye or it could be a stone. Measurement is a quantum-classical interaction.
Of course this leads into all the issues you normally hear about.
Why does interacting with classical objects cause quantum objects to restrict their possibilities(to use loose language)? This is the wavefunction collapse question.
Also, when does something count as a classical object?
Is dividing the world into quantum and classical things not totally artificial?
For some more info perhaps my old posts will be of help:
EvC Forum: Quantum physics: Copenhagen vs decoherence interpretations

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Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 24 (514772)
07-12-2009 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by NosyNed
07-01-2009 2:14 PM


Re: Observations
NosyNed writes:
This is one (maybe the reason?) why the entanglement of things needed for quantum computing is so darned difficult to maintain. It isn't enough to have everyone in the room turn away and not peek. It is necessary that the entangled pair not interact with anything.
Yes, it is the reason. Literally anything could measure the entangled pair, the air in the room, the ciruitry of the computer, e.t.c.
This is why quantum computation people are today focused on finding objects or physical systems which are highly resistant against measurement.
Of course there are other issues. For instance like classical computers have and,not and or logic gates, quantum computers have quantum logic gates. For most systems which resist measurement these gates are hard to build.

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