Unitended racism

Thank you for your views, I hope to be able to hear even more on this line from yourself and others here. "Justice for all," is promoted by fulfilling AA quotas? Men are not equal (beyond a certain level). Some people have better qualifications than others. If you want to encourage the minorities and the other underprivileged groups, then the focus must be on improving their qualifications.The rest of your post is spot on except for one part. I'm not upset at all. I'll take what you had to say earlier about the issue as true but even then without checking; exactly as I had done regarding Hieroglyph's assertions as well. You seem to know what you're talking about and so I'll just go along with it as I haven't quite reached the threshold of researching the sources. This being coffee shop and all it seems a fitting sort of laziness to keep on my part. Especially as I'm busy making chicken salad, and two cakes.

So, your solution is to ignore it, and eventually it will go away? That doesn't help the black man who got passed over for a promotion again, and can't get enough raises to keep up with the cost of living.AA isn't perfect, but it's better than doing nothing and giving racism tacit approval by not calling anyone on it. If we turn our back and hope it goes away, we're not going to do anything to effect change, and so no change will be made. If you have a better solution than just letting it die on its own over a long period of time, during which we allow disadvantaged people to remain disadvantaged just because we don't want to rock the boat too much, then we can debate the merits of that new solution. I have proposed one, what do you think of that one?

If they feel and act helpless, then they won't get the job either. AA requires them to work on their own and get the qualifications as a white male would, but gives them a little help when it comes to something that is out of their hands, and perhaps, in the hand of a racist. And its detractors are white lower-class people who don't do any hard work to get the qualifications and then feel angry when they see a black man working in a manager's position they wanted but didn't work to attain.See how great name calling can be? It's cathartic even.And now you and Hyroglyphix have gotten me to argue for a program I have disagreements with...strange how that works.

I know.I'm being wasted on this forum!

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"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

*Yawns*Looks to me like you're not really taking this seriously. Tell me when you're ready and we'll talk some more.

In other words, in certain situations they'll be treated differently because of their race or colour. Also known as....... [drumroll].... But according to the statistics some people here keep banging on about, the situation you describe is so rare that there hardly should be any detractors at all! don't confuse name calling with observational statements.

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"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

Let me ask you something: If you work for a boss who has it out for you and you get passed up for a promotion again and again, what is there to do? You have a couple options. You could file an official grievance, you could find a better job, you could confront your boss respectfully to find out what's up his ass, etc, etc.What's my point, though? Well, what is the difference between this kind of discrimination that happens all the time versus racial discrimination? Answer: Nothing. Racism is not a crime and people have freewill. But there is good news. Though racism isn't a crime it is taboo, meaning that in very few places in society people openly admit to having racist ideals.The very best weapons used in combating racism have all come from the emotion of human beings which won over the hearts minds of people. That's what even gave a black guy and chance to even dream about being in the White House, let alone actually occupy it. Affirmative Action IS racism and it does NOT combat the root of the problem. How does this make racism go away??? As Legend stated, it's like hoping that 2 wrongs somehow make a right. There are so many things wrong with it, and apparently the Supreme Court agrees. In what way can I get you to understand that it is wrong, unfair, racist itself, and demeaning to minorities?Suppose the only reason Barrack Obama was president because he was black. The rationale was that all who've preceded his presidency were all white uncovering a terrible injustice. And so they gave him the presidency strictly based on something that he didn't even have the ability to choose or earn, his race. And they took away that job from somebody else strictly based on something that he didn't even have the ability choose or earn, his race.So not only does Affirmative Action promote racism to combat racism, it's also demeaning to minorities, tacitly suggesting that they couldn't get a job of their own merits. And in the case in the OP positions were slated for minorities, minorities that never showed up. Meanwhile, good workers aren't getting promotions on the basis of what??? On the basis of race.How can anyone honestly think this promotes fairness or is morally just to anyone? Both minorities and majorities are adversely effected.

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"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

I agree, I have major issues with AA, and would love to have the program go away, but just removing it without a better system in place wouldn't help, and in fact, would hurt. It's not a cut and dry case of two wrongs making a right, it's an opposite action to counter a negative one. For example, you start at zero, and some idiot comes along and subtracts 2, you're now at negative 2, and everyone knows how terrible that is, so you're trying to get back to zero, but all you have is a positive 1. It doesn't do the job, and adding isn't what you want to do either, but under the circumstances, it's all you can do to try and get back to the magical zero. What gave a black man a chance at the white house is that 1) we have a two party system and about half of the country can't stand voting for a republican. We have absolutely no idea on who voted for him because he was black, who didn't take skin color into account at all, and who may have voted against him because of his skin color. I know of at least one person in my immediate group of acquaintances who voted against him because of his skin color, and two more who voted against him partially because of it. So, the fact that some people can stand to vote for a black guy over a republican merely shows that republicans come in under black-guy in the scary-shit-o-meter for some people. Some minorities find it demeaning, but I dare say you can't speak for all of them. You've admitted that you haven't come face to face with persistent, subtle racism at your job such that you can't get ahead no matter how hard you work, but can't quite point your finger at anything as being obviously "wrong." But see, that's a straw man argument. If he got the job solely because of his race, that's wrong. And this isn't the case of a democracy, often it's one person, or a small group of people making the choice as to who gets a job. If, of the qualified applicants, meaning they've all worked hard and done what needs to be done to have the knowledge and ability to adequately carry out the job, half of the applicants are black, but only 5% of the black people get chosen, then the white people are getting the job solely because of something they couldn't control, namely the color of their skin, right? So, how do we counter that? What's your big solution? Is AA the best way to do it? Probably not, so come up with a better solution, and no, love isn't an answer because it takes too long and has no guaranteed chance of success. When an injustice is occurring, we must act to correct it, not sit and hope that maybe in 50 or 100 years it will become moot. But if both are adversely affected to the same degree, at least its fair. Would you rather see one group adversely affected, and one not?

It was a hypothetical. It was intended to make the reader think about their position more clearly by looking at it from a different point of view. There is no solution other than to educate people. It's like AIDS. There is no solution more valuable than education on it. Like some horrible communicable disease, there is no one size fits all solution to cure everyone from racism. It can't be done because we all have free minds.Like I said before, people should be allowed to be racist if they want to. That's their right and their prerogative and it would be yet another injustice-to-stop-injustice solution to limit people's personal freedoms. As predicted, racism is now very taboo. Society has taken care of the problem far better than any policy the government could dream up. That is the solution. My idea of fairness might be a lot different than the socialist way of handling things. I don't think that it's fair to take away from someone else who rightfully earns something to give it to someone else who doesn't. That's not my idea of fairness.Nobody is entitled to a job that doesn't earn it. A job is not a birthright, it's earned through competition. We don't give Olympic medals to athletes from Lithuania if the Lithuanians in (whatever sport) didn't earn it because Lithuania doesn't have any medals and Sweden has 8. That is a convoluted sense of "fairness."Even nature abhors the kind of fairness that goes along with Affirmative Action.Predictably, AA isn't working. It creates more unnecessary animosity than what occurs without it. The answer in my opinion is society. Never have minorities been in a better position than they are now. That trend seems to indicate no slowing down either, but even more improvement. Though it is a work in progress I can't wait to see the final product.

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"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

It doesn't take care of the problem at all, it just drives it underground. Now, very few people will admit to being racist, and will pay lip service to equality, all the while mumbling under their breath about the damn Mexicans taking our jobs or the uppity black man at the plant who got a promotion. I agree, education is the key, and is the keystone of the solution I rpovided a while up in the thread. The problem is, it takes time and something needs to be done for the short term. You're right, that's not fair. Who's advocating that? The minority in question has earned it just as much as the white guy. In a circumstance where there are no qualified minorities applying for a job, I don't advocate trying to find a minority person to fill a quota either, and the case where that happens is few and far between, and is either an misunderstanding, or a false application of AA. That's not what the rule calls for at all. You're right. Find me one person who has siad the opposite of this? If two people earn it, and one is a minority, and one isn't, then it should fall to one over the other about half the time, and the other one the other half. That's not what we find. More often than not, it falls to the non-minority. That's the instance this law was made for. It's more akin to Lithuania and Sweden competing in races, and every race, it comes down to a tie, both runners cross the line at exactly the same time, but the judges decide to give the medal to Sweden 7 times and Lithuania 1. Wouldn't it be more fair to give out 4 and 4?Or do you think it will make the Lithuanians feel like they don't have to work to get ahead and are receiving handouts? Yes, there has been progress, and much of it has been at the point of a National Guardsman's gun, or through legislation forcing it on an unreceptive public. If nothing had been done by legislation to promote equality, we'd still be operating under Blue Laws and Jim Crow.Edited by Perdition, : No reason given.

Hyroglyphx writes:

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However, I see AA as being worse than that.

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Ahem. Is the problem affirmative action or is it simply what people think affirmative action is?Again, I ask for any evidence of "quotas" that so many Republican talking points insist exist.In the Ricci case, for example, I have a very simple question:Was anybody denied a promotion?That's a very simple question, but it directly illustrates my point that there is what actually happened and then there is what people think happened.Was anybody denied a promotion?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Legend writes:

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'Affirmative Action' or 'Positive Discrimination' as it's called here in the UK is just that: discrimination based on race, colour or sex.

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Ahem, here in the United States, what makes you think that affirmative action is "discrimination based on race, color, or sex"?Be specific. Can you cite the law in Title VII that does this?If not, have you considered the possibility that there is what affirmative action really is and then there is what you merely think affirmative action is?For example, in the Ricci case, was anybody actually denied a promotion? A lot of people think that the white (and one Hispanic) firefighters didn't get promoted, but is that really what happened?

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Hyroglyphx hit the nail on the head when he said that combating racism with more racism simply negates the premise.

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And what makes you think that that is what affirmative action is?Be specific.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Hyroglyphx writes:

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And so your solution is compulsory hiring of minorities? I don't get it.

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Indeed, you don't.What on earth makes you think that affirmative action is "compulsory hiring of minorities"? How many times do I have to ask you for specifics before you come up with some?Lots of Republicans want you to believe that affirmative action is discrimination against white males but like most Republican talking points, it has no connection to reality.In the Ricci case, was anybody denied a promotion?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

CosmicChimp responds to me:

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"Justice for all," is promoted by fulfilling AA quotas?

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Huh? There's no such thing as an "AA quota." Oh, Republicans certainly want you to think that there are but like most Republican talking points, it is completely divorced from reality. It is nothing more than a way for them to espouse their racist bigotry while pretending to be "patriotic" and "for equality."Was anybody denied a promotion in the Ricci case?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Legend writes:

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In other words, in certain situations they'll be treated differently because of their race or colour. Also known as.......

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Something other than affirmative action.Just what on earth do you think affirmative action is?Was anybody denied a promotion in the Ricci case?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.