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Author Topic:   Unitended racism
Taz
Member (Idle past 3321 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 16 of 172 (513555)
06-29-2009 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by CosmicChimp
06-29-2009 8:07 PM


Re: Racism is an extended selfishness
you writes:
me writes:
... This is a bullshit argument because (1) there is no real objective way to measure qualifications and (2) two bosses may have two different opinions on qualifications.
Regardless of the actual validity of your statement and two points above, qualifications are earned in schools/universities and on the job experience; listed in CVs, resumes and Lebenslafe; and evaluated and reviewed by prospective employers. And certain individuals responsible for hiring will be making decisions about applicants, irrespective of what another hiring agent may have done given the same data. In theory your points may have some use but in practical terms there is nothing useful yet there.
What are you talking about? The only point I wanted to convey in that statement is unless you 2 identical resumes (went to the same school, got the same jobs, etc.) there is no such thing as 2 equally qualifying candidates.
The statement I made was a criticism that affirmative action gives an unfair advantage to 2 equally qualifying candidates.
I ask somewhat sarcastically, do you have something else in mind, something that could better replace the existing way of giving/getting jobs?
The simple answer is no, I don't have a suggestion for a better system. The suggestion that I have, however, is we raise awareness of the new form of subtle racism that is (I would describe) rampant in our society today.
As I said before, the problem with tackling today's racism is it's transformed from the bleeding obvious to the almost invisible. And I'm not even sure if the people who are performing these subtle racist acts are doing them consciously. Because it's so hard to pin down, minority groups can't really publically say anything about it.
In my line of work, I often have to rely on the totality of the circumstance to make a decision. This is why I don't like to testify in court. It takes forever to explain to the judge or jury why I did what I did. Most people are naive enough to expect me to explain in a sentence or two. This is why I can relate to what minority groups are going through in today's society. Every single racist thing they've experienced has an alternate explanation. Only when you step back and look at the whole thing do you see that racism is still very much alive today, and acknowledging its existence in its new subtle form is the first step toward tackling it.
Affirmative action as a solution has a place under certain dire circumstances most definitely, but in the current climate as I see it in the USA, I hold that it has outlived it's usefulness, to the society as a whole.
Agreed.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by CosmicChimp, posted 06-29-2009 8:07 PM CosmicChimp has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by CosmicChimp, posted 06-29-2009 11:34 PM Taz has replied

  
CosmicChimp
Member
Posts: 311
From: Muenchen Bayern Deutschland
Joined: 06-15-2007


Message 17 of 172 (513560)
06-29-2009 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Taz
06-29-2009 10:54 PM


Re: Racism is an extended selfishness
What are you talking about? The only point I wanted to convey in that statement is unless you 2 identical resumes (went to the same school, got the same jobs, etc.) there is no such thing as 2 equally qualifying candidates.
I did misunderstand you then on that point. But still if I may, let me rephrase your sentence:
Unless two applications are the same, they are unequal.
This is not a useful point anyway you view it.
Also, your point that AA is unfair (reverse discrimination), is also not thought through as AA seeks to correct an already existing unfair situation. But, I still don't see AA as the best solution, as we both agree upon.
Edited by CosmicChimp, : edited for clarity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Taz, posted 06-29-2009 10:54 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Taz, posted 06-30-2009 12:31 AM CosmicChimp has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3321 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 18 of 172 (513565)
06-30-2009 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by CosmicChimp
06-29-2009 11:34 PM


Re: Racism is an extended selfishness
CosmicChimp writes:
This is not a useful point anyway you view it.
I guess I need to be a little clearer.
The reason I brought this point up is because when two candidates are close to the same qualifications but not completely equal, there is no way in hell one can prove that the decision to hire the white candidate as oppose to the black candidate is not a result of qualifications. And if this happens a few times, then we can simply dismiess this as coincidence. But when we step back and look at the overall picture of circumstances when candidates with very similar qualifications resulting in white candidates getting responses, hired, or promoted 50% more than minority candidates, do we continue to see this as just pure coincidence or do we see a pattern of subtle racism?
Do you want me to explain this further?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by CosmicChimp, posted 06-29-2009 11:34 PM CosmicChimp has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by CosmicChimp, posted 06-30-2009 12:42 AM Taz has replied

  
CosmicChimp
Member
Posts: 311
From: Muenchen Bayern Deutschland
Joined: 06-15-2007


Message 19 of 172 (513566)
06-30-2009 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Taz
06-30-2009 12:31 AM


Re: Racism is an extended selfishness
Now you've laid it out so clearly that it actually inspires new ideas in the reader. Nice work and thanks.
If the boss chooses the white it is racism and if he chooses the black it is reverse discrimination. But I've beaten that dead horse enough.
Edited by CosmicChimp, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Taz, posted 06-30-2009 12:31 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by NosyNed, posted 06-30-2009 8:53 AM CosmicChimp has replied
 Message 28 by Taz, posted 06-30-2009 11:53 AM CosmicChimp has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 20 of 172 (513574)
06-30-2009 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Hyroglyphx
06-29-2009 12:32 PM


Hyroglyphx writes:
quote:
For if you promote or hire someone solely on the basis of their race
Ahem.
What makes you think that what you've just described has anything to do with affirmative action?
This is a famous conservative talking point but like most such points, has very little connection to reality.
quote:
how is that any better than denying a promotion or employment based on race?
What makes you think that the Ricci case had anything to do with what you just described?
Question: Without looking anything up, what was the scenario of the Ricci case that brought it to court?
Question: Did the decision of the Supreme Court actually overturn Title VII?
Question: What, exactly, is Title VII?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-29-2009 12:32 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 21 of 172 (513576)
06-30-2009 4:20 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Taz
06-29-2009 3:54 PM


Taz writes:
quote:
The you-should-be-hired-and-promoted-based-on-your-qualifications argument is pure bullshit.
This is precisely why symphony orchestras have moved to the blind audition process. If you looked at the orchestras, you would see that they were all white men. Oh, they all claimed that they weren't discriminating against women and those who weren't white, but it still was the case that the majority of the players were white men and what others they did have were usually somewhere in the lower parts rather than the leads.
So certain symphonies moved to a blind audition process: You perform live in front of the judges, but you do so from behind a screen so they can't see you: They can only hear you playing.
Suddenly, their membership had a much more diverse population with performers all through the ranks rather than a few token players in the thirds and fourths.
Most other interactions cannot have such actions. Playing an instrument truly is all about your technique and your physical presence can be completely wiped away to concentrate on that performance. How many other jobs have such an ability? Personally, one thing that I would like to see is a more open process. Rather than keeping everything behind closed doors, the (anonymized) results should be available to affected parties.
I think this is especially true with regard to salaries: Any employee should be able to go to HR and see the salary breakdown of the entire company in order to determine if there is a discriminatory pattern going on. This obsession we have about not talking about money is what helps keep the problem going on.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Taz, posted 06-29-2009 3:54 PM Taz has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 22 of 172 (513577)
06-30-2009 4:36 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Taz
06-29-2009 5:45 PM


Taz writes:
quote:
They asked me if I could think of any movie made in the states with an asian hero who gets the girl at the end.
Well, knowing full well that one exception doesn't invalidate the concept (PBS had a wonderful documentary on the portrayal of Chinese people in cinema, "Hollywood Chinese," that goes into this very thing...the asexualization of Asian actors in general), but the first one that came to mind was Flower Drum Song. Of course, the entire cast is Asian so it's a forgone conclusion that the love story will have the Asian hero get the girl.
quote:
Is that racism our society has toward asian men? Most definitely! Can we nail it in court? Absolutely not! It's too damn subtle to be nailed down.
Not only that, it isn't really actionable: You don't have the right to demand someone make your movie. It sucks that the big studios have a hard time with portraying certain types of characters with certain types of actors, but that isn't something you can fix with laws.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Taz, posted 06-29-2009 5:45 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Taz, posted 06-30-2009 12:25 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 23 of 172 (513578)
06-30-2009 4:42 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by CosmicChimp
06-29-2009 9:05 PM


CosmicChimp writes:
quote:
What is the worthy purpose in making company staffing reflect the racial distribution in society at large?
You really have to ask?
quote:
According to affirmative action (AA) laws the company is legally bound to tote the burden of maintaining a certain staff profile even to the detriment of the share-holder dividends and overall efficiency of the profitability of the firm.
Incorrect. This is a common Republican talking point but like most Republican talking points, is completely divorced from reality. There is no legal mandate anywhere for such quotas and I defy you to show me such a law.
You're the one making the claim. You're the one who needs to back it up.
quote:
In the aforementioned case it is even what the Supreme Court says.
Incorrect.
Did you actually read the decision? Once again, a few questions:
Without looking anything up, what were the circumstances that brought the Ricci case to court?
Did the decision actually overturn Title VII?
What, exactly, does Title VII say?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by CosmicChimp, posted 06-29-2009 9:05 PM CosmicChimp has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by CosmicChimp, posted 06-30-2009 9:50 AM Rrhain has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 24 of 172 (513602)
06-30-2009 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by CosmicChimp
06-30-2009 12:42 AM


statistics vs sample
If the boss chooses the white it is racism and if he chooses the black it is reverse discrimination. But I've beaten that dead horse enough.
and that is exactly what he did NOT say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by CosmicChimp, posted 06-30-2009 12:42 AM CosmicChimp has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by CosmicChimp, posted 06-30-2009 9:38 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
CosmicChimp
Member
Posts: 311
From: Muenchen Bayern Deutschland
Joined: 06-15-2007


Message 25 of 172 (513610)
06-30-2009 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by NosyNed
06-30-2009 8:53 AM


I said it.
After reading his post I was actually the one to come up with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by NosyNed, posted 06-30-2009 8:53 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
CosmicChimp
Member
Posts: 311
From: Muenchen Bayern Deutschland
Joined: 06-15-2007


Message 26 of 172 (513615)
06-30-2009 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Rrhain
06-30-2009 4:42 AM


Hi Rrhain,
You really have to ask?
I am actually interested in having some of the reasoning spelled out for me.
Incorrect. This is a common Republican talking point but like most Republican talking points, is completely divorced from reality. There is no legal mandate anywhere for such quotas and I defy you to show me such a law.
You're the one making the claim. You're the one who needs to back it up.
Good news to me then. I definitely would not want to repeat a republican talking point either.
Incorrect.
Did you actually read the decision? Once again, a few questions:
Without looking anything up, what were the circumstances that brought the Ricci case to court?
Did the decision actually overturn Title VII?
What, exactly, does Title VII say?
No, I did not read it and probably won't have any time for that. But thanks for your clarification nonetheless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Rrhain, posted 06-30-2009 4:42 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Rrhain, posted 07-01-2009 12:27 AM CosmicChimp has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 172 (513616)
06-30-2009 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Rahvin
06-29-2009 1:38 PM


Re: Some people must be ex
The problem is that minorities have a continuous statistical disadvantage.
Minorities statistically receive fewer promotions than white males.
Minorities statistically receive lower salaries than white males.
A few conclusions could be drawn from this:
1. Minorities statistically don't work harder.
2. Majorities have a much larger work force.
3. Racism prevents minorities from getting promotions.
Any of them could be factors. In my mind it doesn't really matter if the premise doesn't follow. If combating racism is done with racism, doesn't that invalidate the premise entirely?
For example, roughly half of the population is male, and half is female. We should therefore expect to see that roughly half of all employees across all levels of a given company to be male, and roughly half to be female. That's not even close to the distribution we see.
That would be true assuming that more women choose to enter the workforce versus those who choose a more traditional role. I don't know how many women are in the workforce compared to women who choose traditional roles. I don't know if any study has been conducted to determine that. It could also be that more men are in the workforce because more men enter the workforce and not necessarily because everywhere wants to keep women barefoot and pregnant. My sister chooses not to enter the workforce so she can better raise her children. It's not that she can't get a job or that she's never worked. It is just something that her and her husband decided.
Affirmative Action is an artificial counter to this effect, basically giving employers additional incentive to hire/promote/etc minorities to balance the inherent bias towards white males.
If you got a job solely because you are a black woman and not because you happen to be the most qualified candidate for the job, regardless of your race or gender, how does that help the situation? Does that rid racism or does it further perpetuate it?

"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Rahvin, posted 06-29-2009 1:38 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Rahvin, posted 06-30-2009 12:23 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3321 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 28 of 172 (513622)
06-30-2009 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by CosmicChimp
06-30-2009 12:42 AM


Re: Racism is an extended selfishness
CosmicChimp writes:
If the boss chooses the white it is racism and if he chooses the black it is reverse discrimination. But I've beaten that dead horse enough.
You are certainly very persistent at misreading what I wrote.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by CosmicChimp, posted 06-30-2009 12:42 AM CosmicChimp has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by CosmicChimp, posted 06-30-2009 11:59 AM Taz has not replied

  
CosmicChimp
Member
Posts: 311
From: Muenchen Bayern Deutschland
Joined: 06-15-2007


Message 29 of 172 (513623)
06-30-2009 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Taz
06-30-2009 11:53 AM


No no
No no I am not interpreting your info. I was only spurred to come up with that as a result of reading your stuff. That's only something off the top of my head and meant in the coffee house spirit of this section.
I have finally actually understood what you were getting at, I'm glad you presented it there at the end.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Taz, posted 06-30-2009 11:53 AM Taz has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 7.6


Message 30 of 172 (513626)
06-30-2009 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Hyroglyphx
06-30-2009 10:12 AM


Re: Some people must be ex
quote:
The problem is that minorities have a continuous statistical disadvantage.
Minorities statistically receive fewer promotions than white males.
Minorities statistically receive lower salaries than white males.
A few conclusions could be drawn from this:
1. Minorities statistically don't work harder.
"Black people are lazy."
See what I mean?
Besides, we all know that "hard work" does not guarantee a promotion, a job, or acceptance to college. If you really think we live in a meritocracy, you're delusional.
2. Majorities have a much larger work force.
I'm talking about percentages that don't match up to the racial distribution of the actual population. As I said, if 30% of a company's employees are minorities, and only 5% of management is composed of minorities, there's something wrong.
3. Racism prevents minorities from getting promotions.
When you see a steady statistical trend to prefer white males over everyone else regardless of actual qualifications, what other conclusion is valid?
Any of them could be factors. In my mind it doesn't really matter if the premise doesn't follow. If combating racism is done with racism, doesn't that invalidate the premise entirely?
It's a correction for a statistical disadvantage. I already said its not a desirable solution - the ideal is that people would simply not be racist, and that opportunities would truly be equal for everyone. But the alternative so far is to simply allow the statistical trend to continue and do nothing. That's not acceptable.
quote:
For example, roughly half of the population is male, and half is female. We should therefore expect to see that roughly half of all employees across all levels of a given company to be male, and roughly half to be female. That's not even close to the distribution we see.
That would be true assuming that more women choose to enter the workforce versus those who choose a more traditional role. I don't know how many women are in the workforce compared to women who choose traditional roles. I don't know if any study has been conducted to determine that. It could also be that more men are in the workforce because more men enter the workforce and not necessarily because everywhere wants to keep women barefoot and pregnant. My sister chooses not to enter the workforce so she can better raise her children. It's not that she can't get a job or that she's never worked. It is just something that her and her husband decided.
And what about the proven statistical trend that women make less money than men and earn fewer promotions despite equivalent education and experience?
You're assuming that there is no actual disparity between the treatment of white males and minorities in the workplace, and that any statistical trends observed are the result of white males being more "deserving" because they "try harder" or are somehow better qualified. But that's not true. We know that, given equal qualifications, statistically the white male is preferred at a rate vastly disproportionate to the actual population distribution. The same is true of promotions and salaries.
quote:
Affirmative Action is an artificial counter to this effect, basically giving employers additional incentive to hire/promote/etc minorities to balance the inherent bias towards white males.
If you got a job solely because you are a black woman and not because you happen to be the most qualified candidate for the job, regardless of your race or gender, how does that help the situation? Does that rid racism or does it further perpetuate it?
That's an interesting strawman.
Your position is only true if you assume that a person got a job exclusively because of race, with no thought to qualifications. That's not true. Unqualified applicants are eliminated almost immediately. We aren't talking about a case of massive disparity in qualifications. You're assuming that, without AA, employment would be solely related to qualifications and achievements. That's not the way the real world works. Discrimination against minorities (perceptions that "minority x is lazy" or "women will just get pregnant and cost the company money" or "minority y won't do as good a job" or "I just don't like z people") exists. It results in unfair discrimination against minorities. That is indisputable fact. AA is an imperfect method of corecting for that bias. Again, if you have a better solution, by all means present it.
With or without Affirmative Action, discrimiantion exists in the workplace. Affirmative Action is an attempt to compensate for the discrimination. What system would you propose to compensate for sometimes-involuntary (meaning subconscious preference - not all discrimination involves conscious choice) discrimination that does not take into account race and gender? How else are we to correct for the massive disparity?
And if you really feel that white males are beign discriminated against, guess again. AA doesn't mandate that only minorities be hired, and neither does it requrie that unqualified employees be hired due to race. White males still have an easier time getting a job, an easier time getting a promotion, and still make more money statistically than women or racial minorities. This isn't a case of the "poor, downtrodden white man." It doesn't exactly suck to be a white male in America. Recognizing that racism exists and attempting to correct for its effects is not, in itself, racist.
Let's use another example. Back in the 50s, we used to segregate schools. In 1954, the case of Brown v. Board of Education resulted int eh ruling that segregated schools inherently provided unequal levels of opportunity.
The judgment required that the schools integrate. This meant taking black kids and moving them into white schools. The only reason black kid a was moved to school b was because of his race.
That was "discrimination based on race" by the definition you're using...but it was a corrective action against a pre-existing discriminatory policy.
AA is the same. There is currently a trend to discriminate against minorities in the workplace. AA is the corrective action against that bias. It needs to take race and gender into consideration to correct for discrimination based on race and gender.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-30-2009 10:12 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Perdition, posted 06-30-2009 1:37 PM Rahvin has replied
 Message 36 by Rrhain, posted 07-01-2009 12:53 AM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 40 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-01-2009 9:14 AM Rahvin has not replied

  
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