Unitended racism

The problem is that minorities have a continuous statistical disadvantage.Minorities statistically receive fewer promotions than white males.
Minorities statistically receive lower salaries than white males.Etc, etc.Affirmative Action was intended to counteract the underlying bias that results in the racial/gender/ethnic disparities we see in teh workplace that are not consistent with the distribution fo those minorities in the general population.For example, roughly half of the population is male, and half is female. We should therefore expect to see that roughly half of all employees across all levels of a given company to be male, and roughly half to be female. That's not even close to the distribution we see. The same problem exists for ethnic minorities - the racial distribution of employees at any given level of any given employer is vastly different from the distribution of the population as a whole.There are many causes for this of course. But they all eventually result in the same thing: a black woman (for example) is less likely to get a given job or receive a promotion than a white male, and she will very likely earn significantly less even if the two have identical qualifications and ability. Affirmative Action is an artificial counter to this effect, basically giving employers additional incentive to hire/promote/etc minorities to balance the inherent bias towards white males.It's not racism against whites - it's a counter to racism against minorities and sexism. You (or I even) could say that it's not fair that an individual may receive a job over another applicant because of their race...but the statistical fact is that, without Affirmative Action, that happens all the time anyway. When an arbitrary choice between to equally qualified individuals must be made, statistically the white male is chosen over women or people of other races. "Fairness" never comes into it in either case.Remember also that, despite popular opinion, Affirmative Action does not result in less-qualified individuals attaining a position unfairly solely due to their race. The program has absolutely nothing to do with discarding everyone's resume and instead making a decision based on skin color or gender. If a job requires a bachelor's degree and 5 years' experience, nobody is going to hire a high school dropout who just happens to have the right skin color.I agree that the ideal is to simply make race and gender completely irrelevant to the hiring process. We even have laws in place that forbid discrimination along those lines. But the fact is, those laws are extremely difficult to enforce, and they aren't working. Discrimination still exists in the workplace as proven by employment and earnings rates of minorities and women compared to white men. If you have a better solution to correct that disparity than Affirmative Action (and more practical than "just stop being racist"), then please suggest it.

That will be a gigantic help, but it still doesn't do a damned thing against racism in general.The fact is, as of right now in America a black person with exactly the same educational opportunities as his white neighbor will either need to work harder, receive less, or both when it comes to entrance into higher education and employment.It happens even when education and qualifications are otherwise equivalent.And it happens because racism, while certainly declined from the monstrous past, is far from gone.I think the root of the problem is a cultural one, and that we're going to continue to need programs like Affirmative Action until we can finally, as an entire culture, stop classifying people based on color or gender or sexual orientation etc. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening. I think things will continue to get better, but bigotry has been with us for a long time and I don't think it's ever going to completely go away.Personal anecdote time: my boss at my last job flat-out told us, his other employees, that he doesn't like black people. He acknowledged his bias and actively tried to compensate for it personally (and I suppose that if you're a racist the least you can do is recognize that your bias is bad and try to correct it), but what do you think would happen if a black person and an equivalently qualified white person applied for the same job?It's not uncommon. And many people even simultaneously hold such views as "black people tend to be lazy" while also believing themselves to not be racist. "I don't hate black people, and I;d never use that N-word, but generally they tend to be less reliable workers than whites and asians. I'm not racist, I'm just recognizing the facts." I've heard that sentiment far too many times.We've reached the point in our society where racism is treated as the terrible monster it is, and everyone almost universally condemns it...and moved on to denial. Now, we'll still discriminate while we claim to support equality. It's really no different from the whole "I don't have anything against gays, I just don't think they should be able to be married" nonsense. Most bigots don't think they're bigots.That's why we need Affirmative Action. It's the only way currently available to counteract the bias that collectively we often aren't even aware of until we examine the statistics. When 30% of a company's employees are minorities, but only 5% of management is comprised of those minorities, there's a problem.Edited by Rahvin, : No reason given.

That would help, but still does nothing when the actual interview comes around.I would like nothing more than to see Affirmative Action removed. Ideally, a program with any sort of distinction made on the basis of race or gender is abhorrent. Not to mention all of the negatives that come with Affirmative Action - not the least is the perception that minority employees may have gotten their jobs due to race as opposed to qualification, or the perception that minorities are encouraged to be "lazy" because their effort doesn't matter when a quota will get them ahead anyway.But I currently see no alternative for correcting the disparities in employment and wages. Something needs to be done. What we have right now is an ugly spit-and-chewing-gum solution. It doesn't work well, everybody hates it, and frankly it stinks. It's only marginally better than doing nothing at all. If anyone can suggest a practical solution, my ears are wide open.Honestly, I think that as things stand we're on the road to eliminating the need for things like Affirmative Action. Culturally we've been shifting to a far more tolerant society...but it's a process that takes decades.

"Black people are lazy."See what I mean?Besides, we all know that "hard work" does not guarantee a promotion, a job, or acceptance to college. If you really think we live in a meritocracy, you're delusional. I'm talking about percentages that don't match up to the racial distribution of the actual population. As I said, if 30% of a company's employees are minorities, and only 5% of management is composed of minorities, there's something wrong. When you see a steady statistical trend to prefer white males over everyone else regardless of actual qualifications, what other conclusion is valid? It's a correction for a statistical disadvantage. I already said its not a desirable solution - the ideal is that people would simply not be racist, and that opportunities would truly be equal for everyone. But the alternative so far is to simply allow the statistical trend to continue and do nothing. That's not acceptable. And what about the proven statistical trend that women make less money than men and earn fewer promotions despite equivalent education and experience?You're assuming that there is no actual disparity between the treatment of white males and minorities in the workplace, and that any statistical trends observed are the result of white males being more "deserving" because they "try harder" or are somehow better qualified. But that's not true. We know that, given equal qualifications, statistically the white male is preferred at a rate vastly disproportionate to the actual population distribution. The same is true of promotions and salaries. That's an interesting strawman.Your position is only true if you assume that a person got a job exclusively because of race, with no thought to qualifications. That's not true. Unqualified applicants are eliminated almost immediately. We aren't talking about a case of massive disparity in qualifications. You're assuming that, without AA, employment would be solely related to qualifications and achievements. That's not the way the real world works. Discrimination against minorities (perceptions that "minority x is lazy" or "women will just get pregnant and cost the company money" or "minority y won't do as good a job" or "I just don't like z people") exists. It results in unfair discrimination against minorities. That is indisputable fact. AA is an imperfect method of corecting for that bias. Again, if you have a better solution, by all means present it.With or without Affirmative Action, discrimiantion exists in the workplace. Affirmative Action is an attempt to compensate for the discrimination. What system would you propose to compensate for sometimes-involuntary (meaning subconscious preference - not all discrimination involves conscious choice) discrimination that does not take into account race and gender? How else are we to correct for the massive disparity?And if you really feel that white males are beign discriminated against, guess again. AA doesn't mandate that only minorities be hired, and neither does it requrie that unqualified employees be hired due to race. White males still have an easier time getting a job, an easier time getting a promotion, and still make more money statistically than women or racial minorities. This isn't a case of the "poor, downtrodden white man." It doesn't exactly suck to be a white male in America. Recognizing that racism exists and attempting to correct for its effects is not, in itself, racist.Let's use another example. Back in the 50s, we used to segregate schools. In 1954, the case of Brown v. Board of Education resulted int eh ruling that segregated schools inherently provided unequal levels of opportunity.The judgment required that the schools integrate. This meant taking black kids and moving them into white schools. The only reason black kid a was moved to school b was because of his race.That was "discrimination based on race" by the definition you're using...but it was a corrective action against a pre-existing discriminatory policy.AA is the same. There is currently a trend to discriminate against minorities in the workplace. AA is the corrective action against that bias. It needs to take race and gender into consideration to correct for discrimination based on race and gender.

AA laws vary. It's difficult to comment on specifically what population should be looked at. In many cases it simply takes the form of a quota that needs to be maintained, and that quota is determined by local laws. Some may look at the local population, some may be completely arbitrary, some may look at current employment rates and simply try to increase them. Clearly, however, if no qualified minorities apply for a given position, an unqualified person will not get the job.The intent is a conscious recognition that "there is a bias here, even if I don't specifically feel that bias. To counteract it, I will make a conscious effort to hire minorities so that even unintentional racism is prevented in my workplace."I agree with the problems of perception with AA. Hell, I dislike it as much as its detractors - it's nowhere near an ideal solution. It's simply the most effective solution to date. The hope, of course, is that within a few more generations we can either eliminate the overarching statistical discrimination against minorities, equalizing opportunity and pay along lines of merit rather than race or gender, or come up with a more equitable solution to combat it.But pretending that doing nothing is a viable option is unacceptable. The status quo is not a meritocracy; the most deserving, the hardest working, are not always the people who get ahead.As an aside, I hate the term "reverse discrimination." There's no such thing - discrimination is discrimination, regardless of who is being discriminated against. Racism exists against blacks, hispanics, asians, and everyone else including whites. The issue relevant to AA is that, in America, there is pervasive and statistically significant bias against non-white ethnic groups and women in the workplace.