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Author Topic:   Are we prisoners of sin
Michamus
Member (Idle past 5157 days)
Posts: 230
From: Ft Hood, TX
Joined: 03-16-2009


Message 391 of 454 (506414)
04-26-2009 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 390 by Peg
04-26-2009 12:59 AM


Peg writes:
Matt 7: "...if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those asking"
Why didn't you provide the verse, or translation of this passage? I was able to look it up, nonetheless, but you aren't providing transparency.
quote:
KJV Matt 7:9-11
9 Or what man is there among you whom, if his son ask for bread, will give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask for a fish, will give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father who is in Heaven give good things to them that ask Him?
It's pretty obvious here that Jesus isn't calling anyone evil, otherwise he wouldn't have used the word "if".
The implied message is that parents rarely withhold gifts from their children. Even wicked individuals are capable of giving good gifts to their children.
Jesus goes on to have the crowd then imagine what the super-benevolent, super-awesome father of mankind can give you!
The message is clear, God is our Father, and he wants to provide for us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by Peg, posted 04-26-2009 12:59 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 392 by Peg, posted 04-26-2009 5:27 AM Michamus has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 392 of 454 (506417)
04-26-2009 5:27 AM
Reply to: Message 391 by Michamus
04-26-2009 4:41 AM


the message of Jesus sermon shows that Jesus viewed those who were there, including his disciples, as wicked/evil people.... this is because they were all sinners.
Its also why John the Baptizer baptized as a sign of 'repentance from sins' Acts 19:4 "4Paul said: '"John baptized with the baptism [in symbol] of repentance and telling the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus."
And John the Baptizer himself believed that Jesus would remove sin from mankind for he was recorded as saying...
John 1:29 "...See, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world!"
This is why Jesus called all those there, including his disciples, as wicked...because they were sinners and he believed it and knew it...he also knew that his purpose was to remove sin from all mankind
And the apostles agreed with this idea for John says at John 3:16 16"...he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Michamus, posted 04-26-2009 4:41 AM Michamus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by Michamus, posted 04-26-2009 6:05 AM Peg has replied

Michamus
Member (Idle past 5157 days)
Posts: 230
From: Ft Hood, TX
Joined: 03-16-2009


Message 393 of 454 (506418)
04-26-2009 6:05 AM
Reply to: Message 392 by Peg
04-26-2009 5:27 AM


Peg writes:
the message of Jesus sermon shows that Jesus viewed those who were there, including his disciples, as wicked/evil people.... this is because they were all sinners.
ummm, no. Jesus clearly states "if". Also, man is obviously capable of becoming blameless before God (and even perfect) without Jesus:
quote:
Job 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
This verse alone clearly demonstrates that salvation can be achieved without a savior. In fact, in this very book Job endures the punishments sent him in perfect form, glorifying God throughout. These actions are then rewarded by God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Peg, posted 04-26-2009 5:27 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 394 by Peg, posted 04-26-2009 7:28 AM Michamus has replied
 Message 399 by Phage0070, posted 04-27-2009 6:39 AM Michamus has replied

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 394 of 454 (506422)
04-26-2009 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 393 by Michamus
04-26-2009 6:05 AM


Michimus writes:
Jesus clearly states "if". Also, man is obviously capable of becoming blameless before God (and even perfect) without Jesus:
thats fine if you want to believe that, but how do you reconcile ...
quote:
1Kings8:46"In case they sin against you (for there is no man that does not sin)...
quote:
1John1:8"If we make the statement: "We have no sin," we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us.."
quote:
Ecclesiastes 7:20"For there is no man righteous in the earth that keeps doing good and does not sin."
quote:
Psalm 143:2 "2And do not enter into judgment with your servant; For before you no one alive can be righteous"
The bible makes the point very clearly, that all people are sinners, that is to say, all have fallen below the perfect standard that God had intended for them.
Michimus writes:
This verse alone clearly demonstrates that salvation can be achieved without a savior. In fact, in this very book Job endures the punishments sent him in perfect form, glorifying God throughout. These actions are then rewarded by God.
Of course i agree that we can refrain ourselves from practicing or giving in to sin and Job is fine example of this. But we cannot assume that Job was a perfect man without the mark of sin. Job could not possibly have been sinless, but the sum total of what he did was what God required of him, considering the time when he lived and his circumstances. He pleased God; he did what God rightly expected of him. Thus he was faultless, blameless, perfect in that sense.
Also consider, Job eventually died & the scriptures tell us that death is the result of sin. So if he died, it was because of sin.
"through Adam, sin entered into the world and death spread to All men because they had all sinned" Romans 5:12.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by Michamus, posted 04-26-2009 6:05 AM Michamus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by Michamus, posted 04-26-2009 8:25 AM Peg has replied
 Message 396 by purpledawn, posted 04-26-2009 10:07 AM Peg has not replied

Michamus
Member (Idle past 5157 days)
Posts: 230
From: Ft Hood, TX
Joined: 03-16-2009


Message 395 of 454 (506428)
04-26-2009 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 394 by Peg
04-26-2009 7:28 AM


Peg writes:
cannot assume that Job was a perfect man without the mark of sin
We don't have to assume, the very verse itself clearly states he was a perfect man.
quote:
whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright,
Peg writes:
thats fine if you want to believe that, but how do you reconcile ...
There is no way to reconcile it, this is what is referred to as a blatant contradiction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by Peg, posted 04-26-2009 7:28 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 398 by Peg, posted 04-27-2009 5:04 AM Michamus has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 396 of 454 (506446)
04-26-2009 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 394 by Peg
04-26-2009 7:28 AM


Incapable of Not Sinning
Michamus already dealt with the Matthew verse, so I'm not going address that post.
Peg, aside from the book of Proverbs, the Bible is not a book of oneliners. The sentences do not automatically stand alone with their own meaning separate from the point of the writing. You haven't learned this.
Neither I nor those who agree with my position have claimed that people do not sin. What we are arguing against is the idea that all mankind is incapable of refraining from wrong behavior. One is only a sinner while one is sinning. Once the person has repented and stopped sinning, they are no longer a sinner. IOW, one is only a driver when one is driving the car.
1 Kings 8:46 is part of King Solomon's prayer to God. Notice he said "in case they sin". Solomon is saying the same thing I've been saying. People make mistakes off and on during their life. If you read the whole prayer, you should understand that Solomon is asking God to forgive the offenses of those who sinned once they have turned back to God. IOW repented. This verse does not show that mankind is in capable of behaving.
1 John 1:8 is addressing the idea, just like the above verse, that people do sin at some time in their life. I can't say I've never behaved incorrectly. It's a learning process. Notice chapter 2:
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense...
This is the same as what Michimus mentioned concerning the Matthew verse you shared. The author is not imply that humans have no control over their behavior.
Ecclesiastes 7:20 is an unknown author (tradition thought Solomon) writing about his experiences in life. It is not someone speaking for God. If your idea of being righteous is never ever making a mistake, then you would be wrong.
Notice when we look at a Parallel Bible a read several translations of this one verse we can see the idea the translators are trying to bring out. The complete Jewish Bible says it the best.
For there isn't a righteous person on earth who does [only] good and ever sins. (CJB)
New American Standard Bible (1995)
Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.
King James Bible
For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
Bible in Basic English
There is no man on earth of such righteousness that he does good and is free from sin all his days.
Which I do not disagree with these. They are along the same lines as the first two and the Matthew verse.
Psalms 143:2 is a song by David. It is not God talking, it is David talking to God. He is humbling himself before God. again, creative writing and remember David has already screwed up. He's begging for mercy, not making a factual statement about mankind.
I've already shown you verses where God does consider people who are alive to be righteous.
None of the verses you shared contradicts the idea that Michimus expressed and that I've been arguing that mankind is capable of becoming blameless before God with or without Jesus.
quote:
The bible makes the point very clearly, that all people are sinners, that is to say, all have fallen below the perfect standard that God had intended for them.
No the bible makes it clear that people sin. Again, a sinner is one who is currently sinning. Once they stop the wrong they are no longer sinning or a sinner.
I agree that people sin. I haven't disputed that, but we are not prisoners of sin. Mainly because sin is not a living thing that can do anything to us. Mankind is capable of repenting. In the OT God allows mankind to repent and all his errors will be forgotten and he will be considered righteous. Message 113, Message 332, Message 358
How can you follow God when you don't believe what he supposedly said or what his son supposedly said?
quote:
Of course i agree that we can refrain ourselves from practicing or giving in to sin and Job is fine example of this.
Great we finally agree.
quote:
But we cannot assume that Job was a perfect man without the mark of sin. Job could not possibly have been sinless, but the sum total of what he did was what God required of him, considering the time when he lived and his circumstances. He pleased God; he did what God rightly expected of him. Thus he was faultless, blameless, perfect in that sense.
Also consider, Job eventually died & the scriptures tell us that death is the result of sin. So if he died, it was because of sin.
"through Adam, sin entered into the world and death spread to All men because they had all sinned" Romans 5:12.
Then you go a ruin it by adding fiction again. There is no mark of sin. Job died because he was old. Paul tells you that death is the result of sin. Death is part of life and you haven't truly shown otherwise through Jesus or God. Don't go to the A&E story because you don't believe in magic.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by Peg, posted 04-26-2009 7:28 AM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 402 by Cedre, posted 04-27-2009 10:22 AM purpledawn has replied

Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3373 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 397 of 454 (506452)
04-26-2009 12:23 PM


I wonder what posters here would have thought of this idea of automatic guilt if the bible had not been written.
I have found in conversations with muslims and some christians that these people seemed unable to think for themselves, but could only rummage around in their holy books. This thread reminds me of those conversations. I am concerned by the moral and intellectual paralysis that scriptures seem to bring.

Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 398 of 454 (506514)
04-27-2009 5:04 AM
Reply to: Message 395 by Michamus
04-26-2009 8:25 AM


contradiction?
the bible only contradicts itself when you apply a certain belief that is contradictory to what the bible says

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by Michamus, posted 04-26-2009 8:25 AM Michamus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 400 by purpledawn, posted 04-27-2009 7:36 AM Peg has replied
 Message 401 by PaulK, posted 04-27-2009 7:41 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 406 by Michamus, posted 04-27-2009 1:20 PM Peg has replied

Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 399 of 454 (506517)
04-27-2009 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 393 by Michamus
04-26-2009 6:05 AM


Michamus writes:
In fact, in this very book Job endures the punishments sent him in perfect form, glorifying God throughout. These actions are then rewarded by God.
Because new children, wives, etc are just as good as the old ones! Also, those people God allowed to be killed to make a point didn't matter. Also, torturing the ones you love is ok if it helps in an argument with a third party. Also, the years of agony God allowed are ok because Job's mortal life is inconsequential compared to eternity but the mortal rewards God offered are not inconsequential.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by Michamus, posted 04-26-2009 6:05 AM Michamus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 405 by Michamus, posted 04-27-2009 1:19 PM Phage0070 has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 400 of 454 (506519)
04-27-2009 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 398 by Peg
04-27-2009 5:04 AM


Re: contradiction?
quote:
the bible only contradicts itself when you apply a certain belief that is contradictory to what the bible says
Actually it would be the author's who contradict each other. But you are correct that applying a certain belief can cause contradictions where there aren't any. That's why you're having difficulty finding support for the idea that humans are incapable of not sinning.
Remember personification? Paul personified sin, death and righteousness. Paul was also trying to persuade Gentiles to convert. When reading Paul's letters it is very import to read the whole letter. Paul does not provide answer in one line, he creates an argument. He explains the problem and then provides the answer to that problem.
14. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
15. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
16. Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
17. But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.
18. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19. I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness.
20. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.
21. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of ? Those things result in death!
22. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
23. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Even Paul did believed that people were capable of being righteous, but you could only achieve this by using his product, Jesus. Slaves to righteousness means right behavior.
As for the wages of sin being death, Paul is talking about the resurrection, not in physical life.
The resurrection idea supposedly developed more just before and into the intertestamental period I mentioned earlier.
Religion changes as a culture changes. If you read the Bible as it is intended you would see how Judaism changed over roughly a thousand years. If you read up on Christian History you can see how Christianity changed throughout the milleniums. From being a Jewish sect before the destruction of the temple about 70CE to being a gentile religion after the destruction with roots in Rome. From Catholic to Protestant. Then we have the movements within Protestantism etc.
Contradictions happen when we try to force an old writing to support a newer concept. Even trying to force Paul's writings to support a newer concept can be problematic as you've seen in this thread.
Another problem is claiming that the authors were even trying to support each other. They each wrote for a specific purpose, audience and time. The example I've given before is the Book of Job. It was written to counter the idea that bad things only happen to bad people and good things only happen to good people. The prophets said that God punished Israel for bad behavior by having them conquered, etc.
The authors were doing what they felt necessary or were inspired to write for their people and time, not ours. Those authors are not responsible for what the next author wrote, that their works were made holy, how they were compiled or used, or how people milleniums later might misconstrue their writings after translation. They did't write to be a proof text. They wrote to the people who understood the language, the culture, the humor, the slang, the hardships, etc.
See the reality, not the fantasy.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 398 by Peg, posted 04-27-2009 5:04 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by Peg, posted 04-28-2009 3:28 AM purpledawn has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 401 of 454 (506521)
04-27-2009 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 398 by Peg
04-27-2009 5:04 AM


Re: contradiction?
quote:
the bible only contradicts itself when you apply a certain belief that is contradictory to what the bible says
That belief appears to be the idea that the Bible means what it says. Once you take the view that the "correct" interpretation of a verse can be the opposite of what it actually says you've essentially thrown out the Bible. And, as we've seen, you're prepared to do exactly that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 398 by Peg, posted 04-27-2009 5:04 AM Peg has not replied

Cedre
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 402 of 454 (506537)
04-27-2009 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 396 by purpledawn
04-26-2009 10:07 AM


Re: Incapable of Not Sinning
[qs]Neither I nor those who agree with my position have claimed that people do not sin.[qs] But people are still receptive to temptation and they still do become the victims of occasional sinning and it is these occasional sins of people that God will hold them responsible for, but even if an individual is not so inclined to sinning, the individual has nonetheless sinned, put differently this individual has transgressed God's will and is therefore liable to any punishment set forth by God. According to human law an individual only needs to commit a murder once in order to be eligible for a life sentence, or steal once in order to be branded as a thieve, the same is true for the previous case one only needs to commit a murder once in order to be branded as a murderer. So when a person commits but one sin this individual is no less a sinner in God’s eyes’ than another who sins habitually and therefore is him/herself due for death.
Take ancient Israel and their strict obeisance to the Mosaic Law as one more example, one only had to get caught once in the act of adultery in order to be stoned on the spot, it wasn’t a question of how regularly an individual broke a certain command, it was a matter of breaking a command.
God is the same today yesterday and forever, his nature is absolute and fixed, he may change his methods of dealing with sinners but he hasn’t stopped altogether to deal with sinners, he deals with them still, because his holy nature requires it, and because of that fact death is still pretty much a fact of life and it is the very reason why smoke is still going up from the pits of hell.
But now the real pressing issues that need to be tackled are: is blood an indispensable component of receiving salvation or can salvation be attained without the need for blood atonement. Below I meet these two questions head on.
In the case of the bible the past is the key to the future, so we shall rightly begin our quest in the past.
What does the bible teach about sin?
The bible teaches that all man are have sinned, everyone has sinned even Job, Noah the various patriarchs all flesh has sinned.
1Ki 8:46 If they sin against thee (for there is no man that sinneth not), and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captive unto the land of the enemy, far off or near;
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way; and Jehovah hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Psa 130:3 If thou, Jehovah, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who could stand?
Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? And he that is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
Job 15:15 Behold, he putteth no trust in his holy ones; Yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight:
Job 15:16 How much less one that is abominable and corrupt, A man that drinketh iniquity like water!
Pro 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; But the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
What and who is a sinner?
Pro 13:6 Righteousness keeps safe him whose way is without error, but evil-doers are overturned by sin.
Pro 6:18 A heart full of evil designs, feet which are quick in running after sin;
Pro 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?
Pro 20:9 Who is able to say, I have made my heart clean, I am free from my sin?
Pro 30:12 There is a generation who seem to themselves to be free from sin, but are not washed from their unclean ways.
Pro 1:32 Sin and self-satisfaction bring destruction and death to stupid fools.
Pro 11:5 If you are truly good, you will do right; if you are wicked, you will be destroyed by your own sin.
Pro 12:3 Sin cannot offer security! But if you live right, you will be as secure as a tree with deep roots.
Pro 13:6 Live right, and you are safe! But sin will destroy you.
Pro 13:21 You are in for trouble if you sin, but you will be rewarded if you live right.
Pro 16:6 If we truly love God, our sins will be forgiven; if we show him respect, we will keep away from sin.
Pro 21:4 Evil people are proud and arrogant, but sin is the only crop they produce.
Pro 30:12 others think they are perfect, but they are stained by sin.
What does the bible teach about righteousness?
Let us start off with Jesus description of a righteous man.
[qs] (Mat 5:1) And seeing the multitudes, he went up into the mountain: and when he had sat down, his disciples came unto him:
(Mat 5:2) and he opened his mouth and taught them, saying,
(Mat 5:3) Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
(Mat 5:4) Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
(Mat 5:5) Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
(Mat 5:6) Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
(Mat 5:7) Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
(Mat 5:8) Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
(Mat 5:9) Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called sons of God.
(Mat 5:10) Blessed are they that have been persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
(Mat 5:11) Blessed are ye when men shall reproach you, and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
(Mat 5:12) Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets that were before you.
Pro 8:8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; There is nothing crooked or perverse in them.
Pro 10:2 Treasures of wickedness profit nothing; But righteousness delivereth from death.
Pro 11:19 He that is stedfast in righteousness shall attain unto life; And he that pursueth evil doeth it to his own death.
Pro 12:17 He that uttereth truth showeth forth righteousness; But a false witness, deceit.
Pro 12:28 In the way of righteousness is life; And in the pathway thereof there is no death.
Pro 21:3 To do righteousness and justice Is more acceptable to Jehovah than sacrifice.
(Rom 1:18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
(Rom 1:19) because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
According to these passages a righteous man must be a very very rare occurrence that is why God could only locate a single man that pleased him enough to deserve his mercy before overwhelming the world with water. Righteous man and woman are in fact rarities according the bibles standards of righteousness. But are righteous men really blameless or rather sinless as shown above that isn’t the case. Ancient people including these few righteous men were judged according to their good deeds and their willingness to carry on doing this good deeds and refraining equally from those deeds they knew to be wicked or evil - (Eze 24:14) I, Jehovah, have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it: I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord Jehovah. Now as I have shown above with passages dealing with righteousness in order to stay righteous one has to completely turn away from his/her unrighteousness, and be prepared to remain righteous.
(Eze 33:14) Suppose I warn wicked people that they will die because of their sins, and they stop sinning and start doing right.
(Eze 33:15) For example, they need to return anything they have taken as security for a loan and anything they have stolen. Then if they stop doing evil and start obeying my Law, they will live.
(Eze 33:16) Their past sins will be forgiven, and they will live because they have done right.
(Eze 33:17) Ezekiel, your people accuse me of being unfair. But they are the ones who are unfair.
(Eze 33:18) If good people start doing evil, they will be put to death, because they have sinned.
(Eze 33:19) And if wicked people stop sinning and start doing right, they will save themselves from punishment.
If after you have become righteousness you return to your sin, you are once again in danger of God’s wrath.
Another important thing I want to draw attention to is the issue of knowledge of good and evil, For example the kings of Israel and many other ancient Hebrew men usually practiced polygamy. They had multiples wives and concubines to soothe their sexual appetite. Did God consider this practice as a clean practice or did he accept it? No necessarily these practices are forbidden elsewhere in the bible but because it was the social norm of the day God was merciful enough to overlook them and not judge these men for what they thought was an acceptable practice.
Therefore when God called a certain man or woman righteous he was right in the sense that these people really strived to avoid what they knew was wrong and they also desired to obey God at all costs. And when they disobeyed God on what they knew was right God did not spare them from his wrath; Moses, Solomon, David, Jonah, all these people did receive punishment for their disobedience regarding things they knew was morally wrong.
Now where these people completely sinless? Absolutely not, they had the sin that all men inherited from Adam’s original sin and they also had their personnel sins those committed willfully and also those committed in ignorance. However because of their righteousness — adherence to God’s commands, they found favor with the Lord and God overlooked all their past sins. Here is the relevant scripture.[qs](Act 17:30) The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked; but now he commandeth men that they should all everywhere repent:
There is God overlooked the sins of these people due to their ignorance and based on what they kept he called them righteous, but God was aware of their unknown sins, he just overlooked them.
Now another point of importance is to realize that in ancient times God only accepted sin offerings from the Jews for unwitting sins, why? Well the answer is easy; if God had accepted offerings for all sins no one would have bothered to adhere to the law because they would just be forgiven ultimately. To prevent this from happening, God encouraged repentance and a pursuit for righteousness instead. God only forgave the conscious sins if the individual repented, now about the sin offering even priests whom God obviously viewed as righteous were expected to partake in the sin-offerings. [as]Lev 4:3 if the anointed priest shall sin so as to bring guilt on the people, then let him offer for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto Jehovah for a sin-offering.
Thus God is very strict about sin, even those once considered righteous can quickly lose their righteousness by sinning. But what is the challenge for striving to be righteous devoid of Jesus , here it is:[qs] James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is become guilty of all.
James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou dost not commit adultery, but killest, thou art become a transgressor of the law.[qs] I can’t put it any better than James did. But just let me put in a couple more words in view of Act 17:30 as well that I cite above, god expects man to be utterly holy, Lev 11:45 ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.
Pro 8:8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; There is nothing crooked or perverse in them.
These are the high standards of striving to be righteous devoid of Christ, God wants absolute righteousness that is why the Pharisees and seduces went to extreme lengths to be holy. Does God only expect the Jews to be holy people? No he expects even the gentiles to be holy and in right standing with his laws, Job certainly was not a Jew but he pleased God with his righteousness alternatively God punished amoral gentiles or heathens.
Lev 20:22 Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all mine ordinances, and do them; that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, vomit you not out.
Lev 20:23 And ye shall not walk in the customs of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they did all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.
Gentiles will only please God if they obey his laws as the above shows otherwise they will incite god’s disgust and disfavor. If anyone of you want to enter heaven by being righteous then be my guests just bear all of I have said in mind, in order to be righteous you need to keep all of God’s decrees and laws, to the latter.
Furthermore you need to be like a newborn baby pure and righteous
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!
2Co 5:17 Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new.
Jesus himself said the righteousness is not enough to enter heaven you need to have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, and transforming you within. Jesus being God knows that no man can be really righteous, as I have also shown above with the ancient Hebrew’s, it is by God’s mercy that we are made whole in our righteousness as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by purpledawn, posted 04-26-2009 10:07 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 403 by SammyJean, posted 04-27-2009 11:10 AM Cedre has not replied
 Message 404 by purpledawn, posted 04-27-2009 11:36 AM Cedre has not replied

SammyJean
Member (Idle past 4073 days)
Posts: 87
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 03-28-2009


Message 403 of 454 (506539)
04-27-2009 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 402 by Cedre
04-27-2009 10:22 AM


Re: Incapable of Not Sinning
Cedre writes:
God is the same today yesterday and forever, his nature is absolute and fixed, he may change his methods of dealing with sinners but he hasn’t stopped altogether to deal with sinners
This statement contradicts itself! How can god be absolute and fixed forever and always yet change his methods?
BTW, are you debating or are you delivering a sermon to the flock, because you post is giving me flashbacks to my youth spent sitting in the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses.

You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill.
I will choose a path thats clear, I will choose free will. - Neil Peart
"Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts." -Albert Einstein
"I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief."
~ Gerry Spence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by Cedre, posted 04-27-2009 10:22 AM Cedre has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 404 of 454 (506541)
04-27-2009 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 402 by Cedre
04-27-2009 10:22 AM


Re: Incapable of Not Sinning
quote:
But people are still receptive to temptation and they still do become the victims of occasional sinning and it is these occasional sins of people that God will hold them responsible for, but even if an individual is not so inclined to sinning, the individual has nonetheless sinned, put differently this individual has transgressed God's will and is therefore liable to any punishment set forth by God.
Not according to God. Once we repent our transgressions are forgotten.
quote:
According to human law an individual only needs to commit a murder once in order to be eligible for a life sentence, or steal once in order to be branded as a thieve, the same is true for the previous case one only needs to commit a murder once in order to be branded as a murderer. So when a person commits but one sin this individual is no less a sinner in God’s eyes’ than another who sins habitually and therefore is him/herself due for death.
Irrelevant what they are branded. We're dealing with what they are according to God. If they repent and no longer do wrong, they are no longer sinners even if they are in jail. Once they repent God does not remember their transgressions. Ezekiel 18, read it.
Ezekiel (18:21-22)
But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live: he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. ...
quote:
But now the real pressing issues that need to be tackled are: is blood an indispensable component of receiving salvation or can salvation be attained without the need for blood atonement. Below I meet these two questions head on.
You'll have to start a new thread for that one. This thread is not about salvation and is past the cut off point.
quote:
Ancient people including these few righteous men were judged according to their good deeds and their willingness to carry on doing this good deeds and refraining equally from those deeds they knew to be wicked or evil
Exactly! All the rest of your babbling is inconsistent and fantasy.
quote:
If after you have become righteousness you return to your sin, you are once again in danger of God’s wrath.
Exactly! Then the person repents again and they are safe as long as they behave.
quote:
Therefore when God called a certain man or woman righteous he was right in the sense that these people really strived to avoid what they knew was wrong and they also desired to obey God at all costs.
Exactly!
quote:
Now where these people completely sinless? Absolutely not, they had the sin that all men inherited from Adam’s original sin and they also had their personnel sins those committed willfully and also those committed in ignorance. However because of their righteousness — adherence to God’s commands, they found favor with the Lord and God overlooked all their past sins.
Close. Righteous doesn't mean sinless. They did not inherit sin. Sin cannot be inherited. Any sins committed are forgotten, according to God.
quote:
Thus God is very strict about sin, even those once considered righteous can quickly lose their righteousness by sinning. But what is the challenge for striving to be righteous devoid of Jesus , here it is:
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is become guilty of all.
James 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou dost not commit adultery, but killest, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
I can’t put it any better than James did. But just let me put in a couple more words in view of Act 17:30 as well that I cite above, god expects man to be utterly holy, Lev 11:45 ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.
The quotes from James by themselves are not a true statement. Show me in the OT that breaking one law makes one guilty of breaking all of them. If you look closer the author is trying to make a point about favoritism and mercy. His point:
Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!
Aside from Proverbs, the Bible is not made of oneliners. The sentences don't automatically stand alone. Read the authors complement argument which is usually summed up at the end. Then you'll know the point. He's not saying that we will actually be judged for breaking all the laws if we only transgress one. This unknown author doesn't have the authority to make that claim.
quote:
Does God only expect the Jews to be holy people? No he expects even the gentiles to be holy and in right standing with his laws, Job certainly was not a Jew but he pleased God with his righteousness alternatively God punished amoral gentiles or heathens.
Holy just means separate, not necessarily righteous. According to the God of the OT, the Jews are God's holy people. If he lets everyone be holy, then really no one is holy because then no one is separate. Holy and righteous are not the same.
quote:
Jesus himself said the righteousness is not enough to enter heaven you need to have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, and transforming you within. Jesus being God knows that no man can be really righteous, as I have also shown above with the ancient Hebrew’s, it is by God’s mercy that we are made whole in our righteousness as well.
If you make the new thread, you should provide the Biblical support for this.
So you and Peg have shown by your own scriptures that we are not prisoners of sin. Good deal!

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by Cedre, posted 04-27-2009 10:22 AM Cedre has not replied

Michamus
Member (Idle past 5157 days)
Posts: 230
From: Ft Hood, TX
Joined: 03-16-2009


Message 405 of 454 (506551)
04-27-2009 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 399 by Phage0070
04-27-2009 6:39 AM


Hi Phage0070,
I don't believe my post had anything to do with what you just stated. The topic in this thread I believe is whether we are "prisoners of sin", and not "was Job's reward worthy of the affliction".
Now if you want to create a separate topic on the morality of God within the story of Job, go ahead. I'm afraid though that it will be very boring for you and I, as we will both more than likely agree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 399 by Phage0070, posted 04-27-2009 6:39 AM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by Phage0070, posted 04-27-2009 7:28 PM Michamus has not replied

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