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Author Topic:   Are we prisoners of sin
Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3404 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 366 of 454 (506086)
04-22-2009 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 365 by Cedre
04-22-2009 8:36 AM


Re: woodsy
(Heb 11:1) Faith makes us sure of what we hope for and gives us proof of what we cannot see.
Ah! wishfull thinking, in other words.
I can only hope they are genuine experiences orchestrated by God himself. But the greatest cogent evidence for me for spirituality is that it continues to work for me and billions of other people worldwide, it gives life a purpose and a meaning, it causes me to want to wake up early in the morn every morning and do something stirring and exciting because I know that I have a purpose a transcendent purpose that nobody determined for me.
If you can only hope, how can you claim to know?
It's nice that your experiences give pleasant results. How is this evidence that the experiences are real? One can easily imagine falsehoods that would have all sorts of beneficial effects.
The burden of proof is on the guy who wishes to dismiss these experiences as mere by-products of physical events.
I gather that religious experiences can be evoked by stimulating the brain electrically, so proof looks like it may be on the way.
Anyway, why is the burden of proof not on the one making the claim that religious experience is supernatural? That looks to me to be the more outlandish claim.
Let me tell you something on the side, on both sides of the argument people claim to have the backing of the evidence, but you know what, evidence is silent for the most part it is us who determine what the evidence is saying. Atheists claim that the evidence speaks against God, theists disagree, where does this leave us, it leaves us in the realm of faith, that is, whose report shall we put our faith in, the atheists report or the theist report?
Something puzzles me about people of faith. They seem to acknowledge only two options; one believes, or disbelieves. The option of reserving judgement in the absence of solid evidence is rarely mentioned. The idea of a continuum of confidence is also often absent, although I do detect some such notion in your own post. I would appreciate your views on these other positions.
I suppose that all this may be off-topic, except that, unless god(s) can be firmly established as real, the idea of sin is null, as others have pointed out before.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by Cedre, posted 04-22-2009 8:36 AM Cedre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 367 by Coragyps, posted 04-22-2009 11:46 AM Woodsy has not replied

Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3404 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 371 of 454 (506156)
04-23-2009 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 370 by Peg
04-23-2009 10:08 AM


Re: Sin and Salvation
sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned."
I am not an expert on this. How closely was Paul connected to the actual life of Christ?
A lot of Paul's writing seems just plain vicious. It's as if he hijacked a promising religion and imposed his own bigotries on it.
Edited by Woodsy, : spelling

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 Message 370 by Peg, posted 04-23-2009 10:08 AM Peg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by Theodoric, posted 04-23-2009 11:37 AM Woodsy has replied

Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3404 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 373 of 454 (506165)
04-23-2009 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by Theodoric
04-23-2009 11:37 AM


Re: Sin and Salvation
I think a strong case can be made that christianity is actually more Paul based than Jesus based. If you read Paul's writings(the ones that scholarship show to be probably written by Paul) you can see that he had little or no awareness of the life and teachings of Jesus, as expressed in the Gospels. The Gospels date to after the writings of Paul.
So, Christianity is even more bogus than I had thought! Amazing!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by Theodoric, posted 04-23-2009 11:37 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by Theodoric, posted 04-23-2009 12:47 PM Woodsy has not replied
 Message 377 by Peg, posted 04-24-2009 5:48 AM Woodsy has replied

Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3404 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 379 of 454 (506239)
04-24-2009 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 377 by Peg
04-24-2009 5:48 AM


Re: Sin and Salvation
are you going to base your opinion on that one misleading opinion?
Well, it only adds to indications that seem to be piling up. Christianity looks to be a mismash concocted of features of other mystery religions that were around in the Roman era plus bits of old testament prophecy stuck in to make it look like they had been fulfilled.
This wouldn't matter much except that so much of it is pernicious, like your stuff about sin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by Peg, posted 04-24-2009 5:48 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by purpledawn, posted 04-24-2009 2:12 PM Woodsy has not replied
 Message 384 by Peg, posted 04-25-2009 3:43 AM Woodsy has not replied

Woodsy
Member (Idle past 3404 days)
Posts: 301
From: Burlington, Canada
Joined: 08-30-2006


Message 397 of 454 (506452)
04-26-2009 12:23 PM


I wonder what posters here would have thought of this idea of automatic guilt if the bible had not been written.
I have found in conversations with muslims and some christians that these people seemed unable to think for themselves, but could only rummage around in their holy books. This thread reminds me of those conversations. I am concerned by the moral and intellectual paralysis that scriptures seem to bring.

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