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Author Topic:   Not Influenced by Surrounding Nations
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 76 of 83 (502944)
03-14-2009 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Peg
03-13-2009 8:55 PM


Hammurabi Time
Yes any of the above could be right
OK, so let's move on to other things. We can come back to the flood later.
but which account is more realistic?
The Utnapishtim account, but that's probably not what you were expecting me to say.
But let's move back to the Code of Hammurabi, in this case, we aren't just talking about two different cultures coincidentally saying that a person should be punished like for like. They use the same examples! Not "An arm for an arm", not "injury for injury", but specifically:
"If a man put out the eye of another man, his eye shall be put out... If he break another man's bone, his bone shall be broken...If a man knock out the teeth of his equal, his teeth shall be knocked out"
Compared with
"fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; as he has injured someone, so shall it be done to him."
Surely this would require an explanation? Wouldn't it make more sense to consider that this is a result of ideas crossing borders than to believe that the cultures invented it independently (or where inspired independently by some deity of some kind, if you prefer).

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Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 77 of 83 (503103)
03-16-2009 6:08 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Granny Magda
03-14-2009 11:36 AM


Re: Re Developed
In 1931 when archeologists excavated sites at Mohenjo-Daro they published information about the remnants of a highly developed state culture that was in bloom long before our Common Era. Seals with familiar symbols of a religious nature were found, including swastika.
V. Gordon Childe, one of the archeologists wrote "The swastika and the cross, common on stamps and plaques, were religious or magical symbols as in Babylonia and Elam in the earliest prehistoric period." (New Light on the Most Ancient East, by V. Gordon Childe, pp. 184, 185.)
Swastika symbols were found at Samarra, north of Baghdad, on the Tigris, and in early settlement stratum of Susa or Shushan showing that they existed first in ancient Mesopotamia. I think that suffices as evidence and not assumption.
I know that Mayan pyramids are quite different to most egyption ones,
but the egyptions did build step pyramids which are quite similar as these pics show
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

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Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 78 of 83 (503179)
03-16-2009 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Peg
03-16-2009 6:08 AM


Re: Re Developed
quote:
Swastika symbols were found at Samarra, north of Baghdad, on the Tigris, and in early settlement stratum of Susa or Shushan showing that they existed first in ancient Mesopotamia. I think that suffices as evidence and not assumption.
It demonstrates nothing. A swastika is a very simple geometric design. It is found in scores of cultures and is utterly ubiquitous. Pointing out that both cultures had swastikas is not proof of any influence between the two cultures, in either direction. They could very easily (and probably did) develop the symbol independently. Native Americans also had swastikas, long before they were contacted by Europeans. Were they influenced by the ancient Near East?
quote:
I know that Mayan pyramids are quite different to most egyption ones,
but the egyptions did build step pyramids which are quite similar as these pics show
Now you seem to be arguing in the opposite direction. The similarities between the Mayans and the ancient Egyptians are slight and can easily be put down to coincidence. They clearly did not influence each other, not least because the step pyramid you show was built some 3000 years before Chichen Itza. Again, this shows that small similarities can arise even without cultural contact. I have no idea why you would argue against this, as it would seem to support your argument.
The point here is that the similarities Mod has been pointing out are much more specific than anything you have been able to point to. Why not address this by dealing with the similarities between the Bible and the Code of Hammurabi that are detailed in Message 76?
Also, your claim that "all ancient writings originated in the mesopotamia" is clearly wrong. Mayan writing is not related to Mesopotamia and the only similarity between Mayan and Old World culture that you can point to is superficial.
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


(1)
Message 79 of 83 (503202)
03-16-2009 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Granny Magda
03-16-2009 4:51 PM


Not a coincidence
The similarities between the Mayans and the ancient Egyptians are slight and can easily be put down to coincidence.
The similarities between the pyramids of the two cultures is NOT a coincidence!
If you have limited engineering and technical capabilities (e.g,no iron Ibeams) but you want to make a heck of an impressive construction the way you do it is to build a mountain. You make a big base and pile something a bit smaller one level up. I can't think of anything else that you would do. This produces a step pyramid. It is the combination of technology and physics not coincidence that produces the similarities.
In fact, the other, more famous pyramids of Egypt are step pyramids too. The steps are smaller (a couple of meters in the most outside layers) but they are still steps. Then there was (only a little left) a capping layer fitted over the steps to make it smooth. This is a heck of a lot of work though and the Mayans wanted to get on top of their pyramids so they were less inclined to do this.

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 Message 78 by Granny Magda, posted 03-16-2009 4:51 PM Granny Magda has replied

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Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 80 of 83 (503213)
03-16-2009 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by NosyNed
03-16-2009 7:10 PM


Re: Not a coincidence
Hi Ned,
quote:
It is the combination of technology and physics not coincidence that produces the similarities.
Now that Sir, is an excellent point. I stand corrected.
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 81 of 83 (503896)
03-23-2009 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Peg
03-08-2009 6:06 AM


But the Hebrews did not worship any other god besides Jehovah.
On the contrary: the ancient Hebrews often worshiped other gods.
Do you really need book, chapter and verse for this?
You can argue that approval of Hebrew religious pluralism is a rare thing in the canonized documents, but the pluralism itself clearly existed.
__
Edited by Archer Opteryx, : typo

Archer O
All species are transitional.

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Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 82 of 83 (504001)
03-23-2009 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Archer Opteryx
03-23-2009 9:34 AM


Archer Opterix writes:
You can argue that most canonized documents do not register approval of religious pluralism among tye ancient Hebrews, but it clearly existed.
Yes it did exist and there are numerous accounts of it in the OT. But it prevailed amongst individuals who went contrary to their own laws
my argument is based on the 'Religious Laws' of the hebrews not being influenced by surrounding nations, not on the actions of individual Hebrews.

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 83 of 83 (504244)
03-25-2009 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Peg
03-23-2009 11:21 PM


the negative
my argument is based on the 'Religious Laws' of the hebrews not being influenced by surrounding nations, not on the actions of individual Hebrews.
Being influenced does not necessarily mean agreeing with other nations views, but influences can cause the opposite effect which shows in most of the Levitcal laws. Those were laws against the laws & customs of the surrounding nations, thus negative influences.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

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