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Author Topic:   I Am Not An Atheist!
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1406 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 241 of 382 (498548)
02-11-2009 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Straggler
02-11-2009 6:26 PM


Re: God and god
So according to you the ancient Greeks were atheists?
They did not believe in any gods. By your definition.
Ridiculous.
I believe it was Dawkins who said that the only difference between a theist and an atheist is the number of gods they don't believe in.
I also ran a survey asking people to rate various religions on a 10 point scale from good to evil, and it was the fundamentalists that had the highest antitheistic score.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Straggler, posted 02-11-2009 6:26 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Straggler, posted 02-11-2009 7:02 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 242 of 382 (498550)
02-11-2009 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by RAZD
02-11-2009 6:52 PM


Re: God and god
Straggler in response to ICANT writes:
So according to you the ancient Greeks were atheists?
They did not believe in any gods. By your definition.
Ridiculous.
I believe it was Dawkins who said that the only difference between a theist and an atheist is the number of gods they don't believe in.
Not a bad description. But by ICANT's definition there are no gods other than God.
So the majority of human history and most of the world today is populated by atheists. According to ICANT anyway......
I also ran a survey asking people to rate various religions on a 10 point scale from good to evil, and it was the fundamentalists that had the highest antitheistic score.
I am quite an anti-theistic atheist but compared to those fundamentalists I am little more than a lazy lapsed liberal worshipper when it comes to the acceptance of most gods.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by RAZD, posted 02-11-2009 6:52 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 243 of 382 (498571)
02-11-2009 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Straggler
02-11-2009 6:26 PM


Re: God and god
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
So according to you the ancient Greeks were atheists?
They did not believe in any gods. By your definition.
Ridiculous.
Duh, you don't believe my God is a God. So does that mean you believe I am an atheist?
I said I did not believe the angels or the Greek gods were gods.
That doesn't mean they didn't believe in a god or gods.
Straggler writes:
Where are you getting this nonsense from?
The Greek gods were believed to be immortal. Not mortal.
They fought and killed each other.
They ate their children.
Anything that is immortal does not die.
im·mor·tal (-mrtl)
adj.
1. Not subject to death:
Source
What is so hard to understand about that?
Immortal beings do not die, they are not subject to death.
Straggler writes:
Then there is no conclusion possible other than the conclusion that God wills some men to be turned against God.
God wills that mankind have a choice.
God wills that the devil put other option before mankind.
Such as God is dead.
There is no God.
We don't need a God.
We have proved that a God is not necessary.
That does not mean God wants anyone to perish. That is the reason He offered a full free pardon to anyone who will accept it.
The Bible tells me that is foolishness to you but I keep copying Taz.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Straggler, posted 02-11-2009 6:26 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Kapyong, posted 02-12-2009 2:54 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 246 by mark24, posted 02-12-2009 3:02 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 251 by Straggler, posted 02-13-2009 3:50 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 244 of 382 (498576)
02-11-2009 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Percy
02-11-2009 3:19 PM


Re: Of Gods and Angels
Hi Percy,
Percy writes:
Anyway, I don't suppose it would be beyond the power of a greater god to eliminate a lesser god, just as your all-powerful God could do the same to an angel.
You are correct.
God could destroy anything He created.
That is what makes Him God.
But no angel could kill another angel.
No angel could castrate God as Cronus did Uranus at the bidding of his mother Gaea.
Which she had him do because Uranus kept stuffing the kids back in her womb.
There can be only one God.
Anything else is not God.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Percy, posted 02-11-2009 3:19 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Percy, posted 02-12-2009 8:38 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3443 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 245 of 382 (498600)
02-12-2009 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by ICANT
02-11-2009 9:18 PM


Re: God and god
Gday,
ICANT writes:
They [the Greek Gods] fought and killed each other.
Really?
Exactly which Greek Gods killed each other?
Names please.
Kapyong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2009 9:18 PM ICANT has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5196 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 246 of 382 (498601)
02-12-2009 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by ICANT
02-11-2009 9:18 PM


Re: God and god
ICAN'T,
Duh, you don't believe my God is a God. So does that mean you believe I am an atheist?
I said I did not believe the angels or the Greek gods were gods.
So the believers in the greek pantheon were atheists?
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2009 9:18 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 247 of 382 (498621)
02-12-2009 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by ICANT
02-11-2009 9:35 PM


Re: Of Gods and Angels
Interesting. You don't answer the questions about the immortality of Greek gods and about which Greek gods killed whcih other Greek gods. And you don't address the issue that your religion is just like many other religions in making fantabulous claims about their supernatural pantheon, and that details like marriage, war and death are largely irrelevant mythological details.
You just repeat what you've said before.
Tell you what. If you don't have a response to what is actually being said, don't respond.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2009 9:35 PM ICANT has not replied

  
grandfather raven
Junior Member (Idle past 5446 days)
Posts: 27
From: Alaska, USA
Joined: 11-20-2007


Message 248 of 382 (498668)
02-12-2009 5:28 PM


the Great God Pan is dead, sources say
eyewitness Thamus the sailor, an Egyptian citizen, was questioned and released by local authorities. police presume foul play, but have no suspects or leads
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_(mythology)#The_Death_of_Pan

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by zern, posted 02-12-2009 6:59 PM grandfather raven has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 613 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 249 of 382 (498679)
02-12-2009 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by ICANT
02-10-2009 8:49 PM


Re: God and god
Well, the term for Angel is hebrew has it's root in 'message' or 'to send'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by ICANT, posted 02-10-2009 8:49 PM ICANT has not replied

  
zern
Junior Member (Idle past 5523 days)
Posts: 3
From: Scotland, UK
Joined: 01-20-2009


Message 250 of 382 (498680)
02-12-2009 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by grandfather raven
02-12-2009 5:28 PM


Pan is Dead.
...the Great God Pan is dead, sources say
Can't say we didn't see it coming though, how did the police rule out OD?
I mean, when was the last time you seen him without a drink in his hand? Add all that chasing fawns and nymphs, he was no lightweight either.
Thats gotta put some strain on the old liver and ticker..
..but what a way to go!
Anything that is immortal does not die.
Immortal beings do not die, they are not subject to death.
Have you thought this through ICANT? And what implications it holds for Jesus?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by grandfather raven, posted 02-12-2009 5:28 PM grandfather raven has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 251 of 382 (498758)
02-13-2009 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by ICANT
02-11-2009 9:18 PM


Re: God and god
Straggler writes:
What atttributes do the greek gods have that Satan does not such that the Greek gods are gods and Satan is not?
Be specific.
ICANT writes:
I don't believe either one is a god.
Straggler writes:
So according to you the ancient Greeks were atheists?
They did not believe in any gods. By your definition.
Ridiculous.
ICANT writes:
Duh, you don't believe my God is a God. So does that mean you believe I am an atheist?
I said I did not believe the angels or the Greek gods were gods.
That doesn't mean they didn't believe in a god or gods.
ICANT your inconsistencies have been laid bare for all to see.
Were the Greek gods actually gods or not? By your definition.
If they were gods then on what basis is Satan not a god?
If they were not gods then, according to you, the ancient Greeks were atheists.
Straggler writes:
The devil can only do what God designed his tool to do. No?
ICANT writes:
I believe the devil is doing exactly what he was designed to do and is doing a perfect job by the results I see.
Straggler writes:
However you phrase it, however you conceive it if the devil has no free-will (as you claim), if the devil can only do that which God wills, if the devil is designed specifically to turn man against God - Then there is no conclusion possible other than the conclusion that God wills some men to be turned against God.
How can it possibly be otherwise?
ICANT writes:
God wills that mankind have a choice.
Does the devil lie? Does the devil deceive? Does the devil corrupt? Does the devil seek to turn man away from God? Does the devil will that man fail God's test? Does the devil have free-will?
If the devil has no free-will then anything that the devil does is the will of God.
If the devil turns man from God then, however you phrase it, however you conceive it, God must will it that some men are turned from God.
There is no other conclusion possible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by ICANT, posted 02-11-2009 9:18 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 252 of 382 (498810)
02-14-2009 4:30 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by Buzsaw
02-09-2009 9:03 AM


Buzsaw responds to me:
quote:
As per my message 190 perhaps you would evaluate my comments in that message as to why I think it does not make sense that god who claims the status of the one and only god created other gods. That is just not what the Bible teaches or what Christians, by and large believe.
Because they are stuck in a contradictory theology. They ascribe traits to the devil that we would normally ascribe to a "god." But because they have also insisted that their "god" is all-powerful and with dominion over the devil, they then have to deny that this other entity is legitimate.
Now, I'm all for allowing people of a certain theological/philosophical viewpoint define the words that describe themselves. For example, atheists claim they do not have religion, that is a lack of belief, not a belief in lack, and I can respect that. And I certainly respect the claim of many Christians that god and the devil are different (though there are some that claim that god is actually an evil being and still others that claim that god and the devil are the same), but there needs to be consistency. To grant the devil all that power and then claim that no, it isn't real is to be inconsistent.
To use a pedestrian analogy, it's kinda like the problem in Nightmare on Elm Street: In the original movie, the heroine lives because she learns that Freddy only has what power you give him. Refuse to give him anything, and he is powerless...
...except that they immediately contradict that in the final scene and never bring it up again in any of the sequels.
You don't get to have it both ways: Freddy cannot be this amazingly powerful menace that is independent of you while at the same time being only capable of acting at your demand.
The devil cannot be this powerful menace that is independent of god while at the same time being only capable of acting at his demand.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Buzsaw, posted 02-09-2009 9:03 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by Buzsaw, posted 02-14-2009 9:04 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 253 of 382 (498847)
02-14-2009 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by Rrhain
02-14-2009 4:30 AM


Rrhain writes:
Buzsaw responds to me:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As per my message 190 perhaps you would evaluate my comments in that message as to why I think it does not make sense that god who claims the status of the one and only god created other gods. That is just not what the Bible teaches or what Christians, by and large believe.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because they are stuck in a contradictory theology. They ascribe traits to the devil that we would normally ascribe to a "god." But because they have also insisted that their "god" is all-powerful and with dominion over the devil, they then have to deny that this other entity is legitimate.
Now, I'm all for allowing people of a certain theological/philosophical viewpoint define the words that describe themselves. For example, atheists claim they do not have religion, that is a lack of belief, not a belief in lack, and I can respect that. And I certainly respect the claim of many Christians that god and the devil are different (though there are some that claim that god is actually an evil being and still others that claim that god and the devil are the same), but there needs to be consistency. To grant the devil all that power and then claim that no, it isn't real is to be inconsistent.
To use a pedestrian analogy, it's kinda like the problem in Nightmare on Elm Street: In the original movie, the heroine lives because she learns that Freddy only has what power you give him. Refuse to give him anything, and he is powerless...
...except that they immediately contradict that in the final scene and never bring it up again in any of the sequels.
You don't get to have it both ways: Freddy cannot be this amazingly powerful menace that is independent of you while at the same time being only capable of acting at your demand.
The devil cannot be this powerful menace that is independent of god while at the same time being only capable of acting at his demand.
1. Rrhain, your whole argument is analogous to the United States having multiple presidents since the Speaker of the House and the Senate Majority Leader wield considerable power over the people of this nation. Then perhaps there are nine additional presidents who we erroneously call Chief Justices of the Supreme Court.
2. The rightful concept of the Biblical god, Jehovah, must come from the Bible and not from different strokes for different folks. That concept clearly is mono-theistic, all other claims to that status being false. The Biblical teaching is also that one god created and ultimately manages all that exists. Therefore why should that god purposely create other gods?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Rrhain, posted 02-14-2009 4:30 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Rrhain, posted 02-15-2009 4:29 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 254 of 382 (498950)
02-15-2009 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Buzsaw
02-14-2009 9:04 AM


Buzsaw responds to me:
quote:
Rrhain, your whole argument is analogous to the United States having multiple presidents since the Speaker of the House and the Senate Majority Leader wield considerable power over the people of this nation.
Huh? Not at all. Does the phrase, "separation of powers" mean anything to you? We have only one President, but he is not in charge of everything. There are two other, co-equal branches that are independent of and can easily overrule the President.
Congress can override presidential veto.
The President is Commander-in-Chief, but he doesn't get to declare war. That's a power strictly reserved to Congress.
The President nominates judges, but they have to go through the Senate to actually get the job.
quote:
Then perhaps there are nine additional presidents who we erroneously call Chief Justices of the Supreme Court.
Incorrect. First, there is only one Chief Justice. Second, they are not Presidents. They are Judges. Take legislation. If the Congress passes a bill, the President can veto it if he doesn't like it. Congress can then override the veto. If it comes before the Supreme Court, they do not have the ability to strike it down simply because they don't like it the way the President can. The only power they have is to compare it against the Constitution and see if it flies. If it doesn't, then it gets invalidated.
That isn't Presidential power. That's Judicial power.
That's why it's called "separation of powers." Each branch is co-equal to the other and has certain abilities that the others simply do not have. This is the failure of the Bush/Cheney (which actually has some birth in Cheney's daughter...no, not Mary, the other one...bonus points if you can remember her name) of the "unitary executive." The President does not have unlimited power. Many of the things that the President may wish to do are not part of his job description. Instead, they are with the other branches. The President cannot suspend habeaus corpus, for example, not even in a time of war. Only Congress can do that. Lincoln tried and got slapped down. He then asked Congress to do so and they complied.
This is the conflict in Christian theology: They want there to be both a separation and a dominion of powers. They need the devil to be independent of god and yet somehow controlled by god at the same time. How could evil be sourced in god, who is only good? Ah, evil comes from the devil, ergo, the devil is independent of god.
But that means the devil just might win! We can't have that...only god can win in the end, therefore the devil is somehow constrained and controlled by god. But that means the devil isn't independent of god and thus the merry-go-round spins again.
quote:
The rightful concept of the Biblical god, Jehovah, must come from the Bible and not from different strokes for different folks.
But surely you agree that different people have very different understandings of what the Bible says, do you not? If everybody agreed, why aren't we all Orthodox?
quote:
That concept clearly is mono-theistic, all other claims to that status being false.
Then why is there the devil? How can he have any power of any kind at all? He is ascribed powers and abilities that we clearly define as "god-like." Thus, he would qualify as "a god." But you immediately fall for exactly what it is that I described: A need to delegitimize the devil.
quote:
The Biblical teaching is also that one god created and ultimately manages all that exists. Therefore why should that god purposely create other gods?
Why not? God works in mysterious ways and all that. If god "created and ultimately manages all that exists," why is there a devil in the first place?
Hint: Judaism didn't have a devil at the beginning of the Torah.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Buzsaw, posted 02-14-2009 9:04 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Buzsaw, posted 02-17-2009 8:52 PM Rrhain has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 255 of 382 (499255)
02-17-2009 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Rrhain
02-15-2009 4:29 PM


Rrhain writes:
Huh? Not at all. Does the phrase, "separation of powers" mean anything to you? We have only one President, but he is not in charge of everything. There are two other, co-equal branches that are independent of and can easily overrule the President.
By the same token, do the terms, creature and creator mean anything to you? We have only one god who designates powers to his creatues. Some are archangels, some common angels, seraphims, living creatures/beasts, etc.
The president presides over the nation. God presides over the universe. That every aspect of the analogy does not match is irrelevant. The analogy supports my point, nevertheless.
Incorrect. First, there is only one Chief Justice. Second, they are not Presidents. They are Judges. Take legislation. If the Congress passes a bill, the President can veto it if he doesn't like it. Congress can then override the veto. If it comes before the Supreme Court, they do not have the ability to strike it down simply because they don't like it the way the President can. The only power they have is to compare it against the Constitution and see if it flies. If it doesn't, then it gets invalidated.
That isn't Presidential power. That's Judicial power.
1. I was not thinking. Yes, there are nine Supreme Court justices, one being chief.
2. By the same token I'm claiming there are angels. They are not gods. They are creatures of the one only self acclaimed god.
3. By the same token, angels are more powerful creatures than men creatures who are more powerful than armadillo creatures which are more powerful than ant creatures which they eat. According to the Biblical record, Jehovah, god, created them all who are his creatures which he designed.
This is the conflict in Christian theology: They want there to be both a separation and a dominion of powers. They need the devil to be independent of god and yet somehow controlled by god at the same time. How could evil be sourced in god, who is only good? Ah, evil comes from the devil, ergo, the devil is independent of god.
But that means the devil just might win! We can't have that...only god can win in the end, therefore the devil is somehow constrained and controlled by god. But that means the devil isn't independent of god and thus the merry-go-round spins again.
If the devil wins, the creature overpowers the maker, which is impossible according to the Biblical record. Biblical prophecy which never fails prophesies the eventual demise of the devil and states that he knows his fate.
But surely you agree that different people have very different understandings of what the Bible says, do you not? If everybody agreed, why aren't we all Orthodox?
LOL. There's so many emphatic Biblical texts establishing monotheism that anyone who tries to claim the Bible is polytheist is obviously ignorant of the Biblical record.
Then why is there the devil? How can he have any power of any kind at all? He is ascribed powers and abilities that we clearly define as "god-like." Thus, he would qualify as "a god." But you immediately fall for exactly what it is that I described: A need to de-legitimize the devil.
Easy. God creates creatures of free will.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Rrhain, posted 02-15-2009 4:29 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Straggler, posted 02-18-2009 7:02 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 257 by ramoss, posted 02-19-2009 8:37 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 261 by Rrhain, posted 02-21-2009 12:44 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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