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Author Topic:   Why so friggin' confident?
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 391 of 413 (496619)
01-29-2009 11:23 AM


Thread Summations
Acting on Percy's request to consider when this should be closed:
I think that Percy at least has summarized his positions clearly. I'd like to give Bertot, John and some others a chance to summarize. I'll try to watch and let individuals know when I think they have said what they need to say.
Percy, the thread should probably be considered done with for you. I'll get back on others after fitness class.

Replies to this message:
 Message 398 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-30-2009 8:50 AM AdminNosy has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 392 of 413 (496625)
01-29-2009 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 388 by DevilsAdvocate
01-29-2009 10:06 AM


Re: Not the same form of question
If you could or would believe in God, how would you want Him to be and act?
One who gives a damn about humanity and life on the Earth!?! Where is your God now? All we have is a 2000+ year old story which no one can confirm is true and no one can provide any substantive evidence that he has appeared or done anything for humanity for the past 2000 years since then.
The God of the Bible has been caring about His creation and the lives of His creatures since the beginning, and has provided a Redeemer to those who will receive Him. All of time and history is His-story. I'm truly sorry that you and others at this forum cannot see the truth that it's His-story that explains why there's an existance in the first place.
I'm finished with this topic. Thanks for everyone's sharing and comments. No hard feelings on my end.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 388 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-29-2009 10:06 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 393 of 413 (496627)
01-29-2009 1:22 PM


Last words
All I have seen on this thread supports what I have concluded years ago, namely that belief in the Christian God is completely circular. The Christians who have attempted to explain that their position is based on objective evidence have utterly failed to supply an acceptable argument of this.
It always comes round to 'seek God and the answers will become clear to you', or 'you don't want to find God that's why you cannot see the evidence', we even get the tiresome 'Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophecies therefore He has to be the Messiah', and what is the evidence for these 300 fulfilled prophecies? yes, the very same book that the claims are in!
How can these people not see this childish error that they continually make, or maybe they do see it and don't have the honesty to admit it?
John 10:10 just spouts out Bible verses every 5 minutes and thinks that is going to persuade anyone that he has a case. He also fits into the camp of the circular reasonists, and he uncritically accepts every fable in the Bible as true.
So, finally, nothing new here, nothing different from the same old stuff we get all the time. One thing I will say for certain, the people who have this life changing experience that convinces them there is a God certianly have far lower stabdards of what is acceptable evidence. They have a very childlike gullibility about them, a naivety that an adult should have left behind when they were about twelve years old.
This thread has also been a very good example of how little Christians know about their Holy Book, they really appear to know zip about how it came into being, they know virtually nothing about the historical background of times and places written about in the Bible, but worst of all has to be the uncritical acceptance of everything in the Bible, I find this embarrassing.

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 394 of 413 (496634)
01-29-2009 3:05 PM


The answer to why some religious people are "so friggin' confident" is a litany of the flaws in human thought patterns.
The simple answer is "their beliefs require them to be."
The detailed answer is that religious beliefs are a meme.
quote:
meme
noun
a cultural unit (an idea or value or pattern of behavior) that is passed from one person to another by non-genetic means (as by imitation); "memes are the cultural counterpart of genes"
In this case, the meme is self-sustaining, self-confirming, and extremely resistant to being discarded by individuals.
The beliefs of the faithful rely on false pattern recognition, confirmation bias, cognitive dissonance, and social pressure to support themselves, and simultaneously require the faithful to spread their beliefs to unbelievers and their children.
False Pattern Recognition
Everyone can look up in the sky and detect patterns in clouds, making them look similar to other objects. It's pattern-recognition, and it's one of the hallmarks of human thought processes. We can recognize the patterns of letters that form words, or patterns in soending habits, etc. Unfortunately, we also frequently detect patterns that don't actually exist.
For the religious, this can take many forms. One of the more obvious forms is the phenomenon of "pareidolia," as discussed in this thread. It's a startlingly common phenomenon that groups of people will claim to see the "Virgin Mary" in a water stain on cement, or "Jesus" burnt onto a bit of toast. This is literally no different from children gazing a clouds and comparing them to terrestrial animals, except that religious people are predisposed to see their own religious icons (particularly if they already have a belief that the divine occasionally reveals itself in such a way - yet another meme). False pattern recognition like this acts as "objective" evidence supporting and confirming the person's beliefs.
There are other forms, however, and some of them are rather subtle. Which brings us to...
Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive dissonance is a feeling of discomfort that arises from becoming aware of a contradiction in beliefs and/or actions. This is typically expressed as a feeling of guilt or shame or other such uncomfortable emotion. For example, an animal rights activist may enjoy eating meat, but then feel guilty from the apparent contradiction between believing in animal rights and the act of eating meat. This frequently results in rationalization - in this case it could take the form of "the animal was going to be killed anyway, nothing I can do would change it, and I didn't kill it myself, so I feel better."
Let's tie this to religion using another example of false pattern recognition. Imagine a boy who's been told by his religious parents that a certain action or thought is sinful. It can be masturbation, lustful thoughts, stealing, the act or thought itself isn't important. When the boy does or thinks something "sinful," he then has a "bad day," and attributes the negative consequences to his unrelated sin. TO be more specific, perhaps the boy has lustful thoughts about a girl in school and then gets a poor grade on a test that he took the previous week. Obviously the events cannot be related - he took the test long before having his "sinful" thought. However, he feels guilty and shameful about the contradiction between his beliefs (that sexual thoguhts about a girl in class are wrong) and his actions (having those thoughts anyway). Cognitive dissonance causes him to rationalize that the poor test score was a punishment for his "sinful" act - this is applicable not only to typical Christian beliefs, but all Karma-like beliefs in general. This then causes the boy to recognize a pattern - "when I sin, bad things happen to me." The "sin" and the "bad things" have no actual correlation except in the boy's mind. Bad things happen to him even when he has not "sinned" (although granted the Chrisitan belief set includes so many things as "sinful" that it's admittedly difficult to go for 5 minutes without "sinning"), and good things happen to him when he has as well. Regardless of the real-world result, all results are taken as confirming the existence of the false pattern, with conflicting results completely discarded and ignored, or taken as "reward" for some other "good" he's done. Which takes us to our next subject...
Confirmation Bias
Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for or interpret information is such a way that it confirms a pre-existing conclusion. Essencially all of Chrisitan apologetics falls under this umbrella. It is a flaw in human critical thinking, where the bias of the individual taints any test of a hypothesis. Only rigourous 3rd-party testing, double-blind methodologies, and special effort to remain objective regardless of pre-existing beliefs can minimize its effects. Religion, unfortunately, utilizes none of those techniques and in fact encourages confirmation bias.
Take for example prayer. A rational person would say that prayer on average should have a measurable effect, and that if no measurable effect is detected over a large number of participants in double-blind studies, then it can be concluded that at best no deity responds to prayer and at worst no deity exists. However, despite the existence of such studies and their consistent conclusions that prayer has no measurable effect when the patient is unaware of the prayer, belief in the "power of prayer" persists. It persists so strongly that various snakeoil salesmen can convince people that they've been "healed," even after being exposed as a fraud on national television and when the ailment inevitably "returns" after the adrenaline wears off, frequently to the extreme detriment of the sick person who has now exerted himself or who even stops going to his doctor for treatment.
Why such powerful belief in the effectiveness of a ritual that has shown time and again to have no effect other than to make us feel better when we're helpless?
Confirmation bias. When you pray for a sick child, if the child gets better, it's an answer to your prayers. If the child gets worse, it's a "test of faith." If the child dies, "God works in mysterious ways." The actual result does not affect the preconceived conclusion. All results act to "confirm" the beliefs of the faithful in a neverending cycle.
Social Pressure
Finally we have the religion meme's defense mechanism: social pressure. When rational people want to determine whether their beliefs are rational, they look for confirmation or denial from their community. When a shadow is seen moving inthe corner of one's eye, one asks a nearby person, "did you see that?" Confirmation suggests that something was actually there. Denial means you may have been mistaken.
But what happens when an entire community is convinced of a delusional belief? All of your fellow churchgoers may report being able to "feel the love of Jesus," or confirm your mistaken suspicion that the "bad things" in your life are punishments for your "sins," or that the burn mark on your slice of toast really does look like Jesus and it's a "miracle." They'll confirm that the sick child's recovery was miraculous (with no reason for saying so other than a sick child got well, an event that occurs frequently and with no suggestion of supernatural intervention), or that the child's death was "part of God's plan."
Once a belief reaches a critical mass of adherents, it becomes self-confirming, and it becomes nearly impossible for an individual to break out of the belief system without also leaving the community - which raises the additional stygma of rejection and the desire to "fit in."
The combination of all these things is the cause for religious confidence. They believe they have "evidence," but one can only see that evidence if one already believes because of its subjective nature and teh requirement for confirmation bias to eliminate objectivity. They believe they're right becasue all of their friends agree with them (and in some cases the belief system warns that they will be "persecuted" for having their beliefs - meaning critics will be ignored as "misguided" or "unenlightened). They see patterns that don't exist and rationalize solutions for their cognitive dissonance all to confirm that what they already believe is true.
The whole cycle breeds confidence and rejection of criticism. The meme defends itself, and continues to be spread.

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by olivortex, posted 01-29-2009 6:39 PM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 396 by bluescat48, posted 01-30-2009 12:41 AM Rahvin has not replied

olivortex
Member (Idle past 4778 days)
Posts: 70
From: versailles, france
Joined: 01-28-2009


Message 395 of 413 (496654)
01-29-2009 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by Rahvin
01-29-2009 3:05 PM


Bravo.
"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds."

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 397 by Annafan, posted 01-30-2009 3:11 AM olivortex has not replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 396 of 413 (496691)
01-30-2009 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 394 by Rahvin
01-29-2009 3:05 PM


Bravo!! Your post says more than the 393 posts leading up to it. Hats off. Thanks.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
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Annafan
Member (Idle past 4579 days)
Posts: 418
From: Belgium
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 397 of 413 (496708)
01-30-2009 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 395 by olivortex
01-29-2009 6:39 PM


Olivortex writes:
"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds."
I like this one better: "It is impossible to teach a man what he thinks he already knows."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by olivortex, posted 01-29-2009 6:39 PM olivortex has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 398 of 413 (496742)
01-30-2009 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 391 by AdminNosy
01-29-2009 11:23 AM


Re: Thread Summations
Admin writes:
I'd like to give Bertot, John and some others a chance to summarize. I'll try to watch and let individuals know when I think they have said what they need to say.
Thanks for the chance to close this from our position. As I read throught the previous closures, it became painfully obvious that there was nothing new here, not just in the closures but broadly in the assertions, the same worn out broken down tripe that gives no cause to abandon the best of evidence, not only for Gods existence but that of the scriprutes as well. I have heard it now for nearly 55 years and it offers nothing is comparison to that of reality. It is not necessary to rehearse all the arguments we have set out only to very carefully point out thaat:
These fellas (atheistic humanists) make up about, what is it, 3 to 4 % of the population and it has been this way since the beginning of time. Now I can believe that all of the thousands (majority) of people over the thousands of years suffer from delusion or mass hesteria or I can believe there are little select group of clownish individulas, that ignore obvious evidence, in favor of a posittion that offers no explanations for anything, but is very adept at expalining everything, but ignoring all of its obvious reason, sources or causes. Or even pretending that causation ois not relevant. In other words why would I or anyone be satisfied with how atree works, but also be satisfied with no explanation for its source or cause. This is what this select group of clownish little men offer anyone. Yet we are to consider hem the select group of intellectuals
Besides not offering any counterfatual hypothesis to already existing evidence, they or thier position never have a serious impact on society or the changing of mens minds, because what they puppose and what they offer, besides being ridiculous and foolish, provides nothing in the way of explanations. They ofcourse, hope no one pays any attention to this painful fact. Fortunately, most rational and intelligent people are aware of this fact and the class of people that disregard thier blathering range from great to small in intelligence Which is a indication that the evidence is so obvious that any thinking person (That is one not abandoning reason) can easily see the truth.
Theres no great trick to ignoring reality as these so-called intellectuals do, all one has to do is bury ones head and say, well I just dont see that at all. They may even have a case if it were not for the fact that the best of minds through the years have chose not to ignore this obvious evidence and supported it with all of thier intellect. Who would call F.F. Bruce, C.S. Lewis and many other notable intellectuals, uninformed? So if intellect is not the reason, what must be the reason these fellas adopt the positions they do?. One literally has to abandon reason to come to such conclusions about Gods non-existence, no evidence supporting it and such and the positions about the scriptures. Once one does this it becomes a free for all, they proceed as if they have removed all the solid evidence for such reasons, when in fact all they have done is ignored it.
"For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God or gave him thanks, but they became vain in thier imaginations and thier FOOLISH hearts were darkened, professing themselves to be WISE, they became FOOLS, and changed (replaced the creator) the glory of the incorruptible God, with that of fourfooted, beasts and creapting things. Even when they did not like to RETAIN God in thier knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do and think those things which are not normal.. THEY EXCHANGE THE TRUTH OF (OR ABOUT) God for a lie." Romans chapter 1.
You see theres no trick or great effort to ignoring truth, you simply have to make a decision to do so. Isnt it interesting how relevant this truth is today, even as it was thousnads of years ago. These arrogant little men beleive that because they have discovered a few facts concering the universe and the nature of things, that this is reason to proclaim, "we need no God for our conclusions, we will figure it out on our own" and they dont even have a clue about whats around the first turn. Certainly, arrogance of this nature is matched only by its stupidity.
Lastly in this connection it should be noted that persons of this persuation are degenerates of the highest form and order. Now I dont mean degenerate in a sexual perversness, I mean it in the sense they have abandoned all REASON in favor of a position with none. Degenerate in the thinking process, so unobjective they are blind to reality.
There is no other explanation why individuals would spend so much time defending or defending against somethhing they dont even believe in. They are hoping against all hope that these things are not true, they need them to not be true in thier minds, so it will provide a comfort ignoring reality. Surely if these things are not true, one should not be so threated by them, or is it that they do see evidence and choose to ignore it?
Why would anyone in their RIGHT MIND abandon reality and reason for the skeptics sea of emptiness and willful stupidity? Not ignoring the fact they cannot offer any valid reasons to ignore the present evidence.
In conclusion: what does atheism say, nothing, what does atheism offer, nothing, what does atheism do, nothing. What does atheism provide,nothing. In short, what is atheism and skepticism, NOTHING.
D Bertot
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by AdminNosy, posted 01-29-2009 11:23 AM AdminNosy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 399 by AdminNosy, posted 01-30-2009 9:28 AM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 400 by Annafan, posted 01-30-2009 9:36 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 399 of 413 (496747)
01-30-2009 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 398 by Dawn Bertot
01-30-2009 8:50 AM


No replies to Bertot please
We are summarizing the thead. Please do not reply to Bertot.
He has chosen not to summarize his position and explain his confidence but rather to attack his own idea of others positions. He may want to add more to explain his own confidence from positive evidence for his position (if he needs any).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 398 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-30-2009 8:50 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 401 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-30-2009 7:31 PM AdminNosy has not replied

Annafan
Member (Idle past 4579 days)
Posts: 418
From: Belgium
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 400 of 413 (496748)
01-30-2009 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 398 by Dawn Bertot
01-30-2009 8:50 AM


Re: Thread Summations
Out of place post is hidden, use peek if you must.
Edited by Annafan, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminNosy, : hiding post

This message is a reply to:
 Message 398 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-30-2009 8:50 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 402 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-30-2009 7:35 PM Annafan has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 401 of 413 (496816)
01-30-2009 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 399 by AdminNosy
01-30-2009 9:28 AM


Re: No replies to Bertot please
Admin writes:
We are summarizing the thead. Please do not reply to Bertot.
He has chosen not to summarize his position and explain his confidence but rather to attack his own idea of others positions. He may want to add more to explain his own confidence from positive evidence for his position (if he needs any).
Why would I repeat and duplicate arguments to which no one has provided an adequate answer?
Oh, On the contrary admin demi god, please let them respond, we encourage any and all attempts at reason to overthrow these obvious facts of reality. Besides this you had no problem at taking a shot, why not them? Or if you are implying that I may respond to thier last attempts at arguments, Iwould lkie that as well and I know that ICANT, John and Jaywill would love it also.
D Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 399 by AdminNosy, posted 01-30-2009 9:28 AM AdminNosy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 405 by RAZD, posted 01-31-2009 1:22 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 402 of 413 (496818)
01-30-2009 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 400 by Annafan
01-30-2009 9:36 AM


Re: Thread Summations
Off topic reply hidden. If you do that again Bertot you will get a suspension.
Edited by AdminNosy, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by Annafan, posted 01-30-2009 9:36 AM Annafan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 404 by AdminNosy, posted 01-30-2009 8:43 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 403 of 413 (496820)
01-30-2009 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by Dawn Bertot
01-28-2009 1:29 AM


Gday,
Bertot writes:
Take the NT for example. It is no conincidence that you can reproduce nearly 98% of the Now existing books of the NT in the earliest church fathers.
Really?
Did you check this yourself?
If so, can you show your actual details?
Or did you see someone else who checked this?
If so, can you show their actual details?
Or did you just repeat a claim you heard from a Christian?
Do you know of ANYONE who has ever checked it ?
I do.
The results are far far short of 98%
e-Catena: Compiled Allusions to the NT in the Ante-Nicene Fathers
Kapyong

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-28-2009 1:29 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 406 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-31-2009 1:27 AM Kapyong has not replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 404 of 413 (496823)
01-30-2009 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 402 by Dawn Bertot
01-30-2009 7:35 PM


topic warning to Bertot
You pulled something out of hiding with a topic warning on it.
Do that again and you'll be suspended for days.
Edited by AdminNosy, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminNosy, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-30-2009 7:35 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 405 of 413 (496835)
01-31-2009 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 401 by Dawn Bertot
01-30-2009 7:31 PM


My Summary Observation
Hi all,
This is not a response to Bertot, so much as using this post as an example for my argument and summary.
From a final post Bertot demonstrates non-comprehension of the issue.
Why would I repeat and duplicate arguments to which no one has provided an adequate answer?
The question was not to repeat and duplicate, but to summarize, annotate, conclude with a concise opinion that sums up all your arguments into a cohesive whole: Why so friggin confident in faith and do you have any real objective touch\see evidence to support your faith?
Oh, On the contrary admin demi god, please let them respond, we encourage any and all attempts at reason to overthrow these obvious facts of reality. Besides this you had no problem at taking a shot, why not them? Or if you are implying that I may respond to thier last attempts at arguments, Iwould lkie that as well and I know that ICANT, John and Jaywill would love it also.
The point is NOT to continue the debate but to present "closing arguments" as is typical in a debate format. The responses have all already been made, and it is time to reach conclusions. The point is not whether they have answered your questions, the point is how you have addressed the question of the topic, how your detractors have not, and what conclusions one can reach from those results.
As one who has lurked this thread, rather than participate in head-banging, it is obvious that the fundamentalist literalist christian uses a different definition of "evidence" than the others in this debate. One that is personal and subjective and only available to believers. The "other" definition is that evidence is objective and reproducible, even for non-believers. This is how they equivocate on the definition of faith being based on evidence.
John 10:10 claims he is confident because he has evidence, but his evidence is only available to those with faith. His evidence is the faith he has in his faith. He'll present scripture verse at the drop of a hat, but ignore the issue, the topic and reality in the process, and dance around any real questions rather than answer directly.
Bertot claims he has objective evidence when talking to the loyal opposition, but is unable to present a single shred to test for validity, and when he is challenged that his definition differs from John 10:10 he equivocates and says they are the same.
Not one believer has presented objective "kick-the-tires" evidence for why one should drive off in a "Christler" instead of a "Hinda" yet they all display extreme confidence that only "Christlers" are worth driving down the path of faith.
It is the confidence of a closed mind, unwilling to consider that they could be wrong, therefore they are right about anything they discuss, whether it is logic, life, linguistics or the mating habits of a little known butterfly that only lives in the amazon basin's northern branch where only one specimen has been found.
It is the confidence of confirmation bias.
It is the confidence of cognitive dissonance's rejection\denial of reality rather than resolution of the conflict/s.
It is the confidence of delusion in maintaining a belief in spite of contradictory evidence.
It is the confidence of groupthink.
It is the confidence of "My dogs better than your dog" childhood.
It is the confidence of ignorance, of not knowing what you don't know.
It is the confidence of group reinforcement and hypnosis\trance.
Sadly, it is also my observation that most of this thread is pointless, once you get one answer from a person of faith all others are redundant for the very reasons given here.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : g

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-30-2009 7:31 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-31-2009 1:53 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
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