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Author Topic:   Who & what are the demons ?
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 61 of 349 (494567)
01-16-2009 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Buzsaw
01-16-2009 9:20 PM


By your allegation that this near to the event historical manuscript is mythology, woudn't that imply that all other (abe: unverified)ancient historical manuscripts further removed from the events claimed are even more likely mythology as well?
Yes, I would agree, any manuscript claiming anything on demons is mythology.

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Buzsaw, posted 01-16-2009 9:20 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3100 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 62 of 349 (494758)
01-18-2009 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by John 10:10
01-16-2009 5:12 PM


John 10:10 writes:
1 Cor 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Myself writes:
No, you make absolutely no sense and are a danger to humanity.
That's nice. You did read my signature statement below by Carl Sagan correct? That's my answer to your use of this scripture.
BTW, you cannot win a logical argument using religious scripture (or any acclaim to authority) unless you can provide evidence of why we should be believe this scripture or authority to be true in the first place. And, no you cannot use the Bible itself to prove its validity or that would constitute circular reasoning (begging the question).
Here is a good site to understand what the different types of logical fallacies are: Fallacies
Yes, yes I know I am giving away trade secrets to the opposing side.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by John 10:10, posted 01-16-2009 5:12 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by John 10:10, posted 01-18-2009 7:31 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 63 of 349 (494803)
01-18-2009 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by DevilsAdvocate
01-18-2009 10:42 AM


BTW, you cannot win a logical argument using religious scripture (or any acclaim to authority) unless you can provide evidence of why we should be believe this scripture or authority to be true in the first place. And, no you cannot use the Bible itself to prove its validity or that would constitute circular reasoning (begging the question).
Then why are you even in this section of the forum where Believers in the Lord Jesus Christ get to explain to unbelievers what Faith & Belief are all about, and how the Lord gives His authority over demons to those who honor Him? Demons certainly knew that Jesus was the Son of God (Luke 4:41). Demons themselves are quite content for you to remain in your unbelief, while the evil they cause abounds all around you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-18-2009 10:42 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-19-2009 1:15 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 65 by Coragyps, posted 01-19-2009 3:08 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3100 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


(1)
Message 64 of 349 (494865)
01-19-2009 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by John 10:10
01-18-2009 7:31 PM


Then why are you even in this section of the forum where Believers in the Lord Jesus Christ get to explain to unbelievers what Faith & Belief are all about, and how the Lord gives His authority over demons to those who honor Him?
You are really dense you know that? Here is what the description of the "Faith and Belief" forum (part of Social & Religious Issues) reads "Is God an objective reality or a subjective concept?", this say nothing about "where Believers in the Lord Jesus Christ get to explain to unbelievers what Faith & Belief are all about". This is a neutral forum in which to discuss the validity of God and religion nothing more. It is not a evangalism forum. If you want that go to GodTube or some Christian Evangalism forum.
Demons certainly knew that Jesus was the Son of God (Luke 4:41). Demons themselves are quite content for you to remain in your unbelief, while the evil they cause abounds all around you.
That's nice. Please come back when you can conduct a logical and rational debate on this topic. Otherwise no one is going to take you seriously.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by John 10:10, posted 01-18-2009 7:31 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by John 10:10, posted 01-23-2009 6:14 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 65 of 349 (494877)
01-19-2009 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by John 10:10
01-18-2009 7:31 PM


Demons themselves are quite content for you to remain in your unbelief, while the evil they cause abounds all around you.
But do they live in the striatum of my brain, and diddle with my dopamine balance there? Do antipsychotic drugs repel them? You're not answering my questions! You don't want to hurt my feelings, do you?

"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

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 Message 63 by John 10:10, posted 01-18-2009 7:31 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 66 of 349 (495634)
01-23-2009 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by DevilsAdvocate
01-19-2009 1:15 PM


Here is what the description of the "Faith and Belief" forum (part of Social & Religious Issues) reads "Is God an objective reality or a subjective concept?", this say nothing about "where Believers in the Lord Jesus Christ get to explain to unbelievers what Faith & Belief are all about". This is a neutral forum in which to discuss the validity of God and religion nothing more. It is not a evangalism forum. If you want that go to GodTube or some Christian Evangalism forum.
This forum as a whole is anything but neutral when it comes to talking about the validity of God. The least you and other unbelievers can do is let believers in the Lord Jesus Christ explain what "faith and belief in God" is all about from our viewpoint, rather than limiting "faith and belief in God" discussions to your viewpoints only. The latter mostly evolves into deprecating the messenger, rather than truly examining the message and promises that Jesus gives in the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-19-2009 1:15 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by bluescat48, posted 01-23-2009 10:22 PM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 68 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-23-2009 10:31 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 67 of 349 (495682)
01-23-2009 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by John 10:10
01-23-2009 6:14 PM


This forum as a whole is anything but neutral when it comes to talking about the validity of God. The least you and other unbelievers can do is let believers in the Lord Jesus Christ explain what "faith and belief in God" is all about from our viewpoint, rather than limiting "faith and belief in God" discussions to your viewpoints only. The latter mostly evolves into deprecating the messenger, rather than truly examining the message and promises that Jesus gives in the Bible.
Then explain. In several topics you have been asked simple questions to get at what your views & beliefs are and all you do is quote scripture or say that if one doesn't understand and believe he won't understand(?).

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by John 10:10, posted 01-23-2009 6:14 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3100 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 68 of 349 (495684)
01-23-2009 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by John 10:10
01-23-2009 6:14 PM


This forum as a whole is anything but neutral when it comes to talking about the validity of God.
Neutral in that the moderators do not take one side or the other and that everyone has an equal chance to say what they want.
The least you and other unbelievers can do is let believers in the Lord Jesus Christ explain what "faith and belief in God" is all about from our viewpoint, rather than limiting "faith and belief in God" discussions to your viewpoints only.
You can say anything you want. I am not a moderator. Just don't expect us to respond favorably to illogical, unsubstantiated statements that add nothing to the discussion.
The latter mostly evolves into deprecating the messenger, rather than truly examining the message and promises that Jesus gives in the Bible.
Examining what message. The topic is "Who and what are demons", not Bible Study 101 with John 10:10.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by John 10:10, posted 01-23-2009 6:14 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by John 10:10, posted 01-24-2009 11:10 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 69 of 349 (495805)
01-24-2009 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by DevilsAdvocate
01-23-2009 10:31 PM


added "as recorded in the Bible"
No, you make absolutely no sense and are a danger to humanity.
This is your example of deprecating the messenger, rather than examining the message.
Examining what message. The topic is "Who and what are demons", not Bible Study 101 with John 10:10.
If one wants to learn "Who and what are demons," the best way I know is to look at the life and message of Jesus as recorded in the Bible, and see how He dealt with demons. You can deny that demons are real, or that Jesus dealt with real demons, or that real demons exist in today's world if you wish. My belief is that believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, those who know they have His authority, should take on those cases where NOTHING ELSE HAS WORKED. Yes, I guess this is dangerous to those who exclude the reality of demons.
Edited by John 10:10, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-23-2009 10:31 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by bluescat48, posted 01-24-2009 11:31 AM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 71 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-24-2009 2:13 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 70 of 349 (495809)
01-24-2009 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by John 10:10
01-24-2009 11:10 AM


Re: added "as recorded in the Bible"
Yes, I guess this is dangerous to those who exclude the reality of demons.
One would have to give real evidence that such entities exist and are not simply more ancient & medieval superstitions & mythology

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by John 10:10, posted 01-24-2009 11:10 AM John 10:10 has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3100 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 71 of 349 (495833)
01-24-2009 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by John 10:10
01-24-2009 11:10 AM


Re: added "as recorded in the Bible"
If one wants to learn "Who and what are demons," the best way I know is to look at the life and message of Jesus as recorded in the Bible, and see how He dealt with demons. You can deny that demons are real, or that Jesus dealt with real demons, or that real demons exist in today's world if you wish. My belief is that believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, those who know they have His authority, should take on those cases where NOTHING ELSE HAS WORKED. Yes, I guess this is dangerous to those who exclude the reality of demons.
So not only is your god the "god of the gaps" as related to scientific knowledge but in the "god of the gaps" when it comes to medical cases. This psychosis is dangerous because instead of studying the symptoms to discover its possible causes you are resorting to superstition and religious ritual thus putting someones life in danger.
I stand by my statement that you are a danger to mankind.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by John 10:10, posted 01-24-2009 11:10 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by John 10:10, posted 01-24-2009 6:52 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 72 of 349 (495883)
01-24-2009 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by DevilsAdvocate
01-24-2009 2:13 PM


Re: added "as recorded in the Bible"
So not only is your god the "god of the gaps" as related to scientific knowledge but in the "god of the gaps" when it comes to medical cases. This psychosis is dangerous because instead of studying the symptoms to discover its possible causes you are resorting to superstition and religious ritual thus putting someones life in danger.
I stand by my statement that you are a danger to mankind.
Did you miss the part where I said,
"My belief is that believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, those who know they have His authority, should take on those cases where NOTHING ELSE HAS WORKED."
Cases where NOTHING ELSE HAS WORKED means when doctors and physiatrists have tried everything they know and nothing has helped to bring these patients into their right minds, then consider that demons are causing the problem.
Yes, Christians that use Jesus's authority are a danger to demons.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-24-2009 2:13 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-25-2009 2:17 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3100 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 73 of 349 (495972)
01-25-2009 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by John 10:10
01-24-2009 6:52 PM


Re: added "as recorded in the Bible"
Cases where NOTHING ELSE HAS WORKED means when doctors and physiatrists have tried everything they know and nothing has helped to bring these patients into their right minds, then consider that demons are causing the problem.
So tell me a case in modern history where an exorcist has performed exorcism and someone has gotten better physically and/or psychologically after doctors and psychologists have scratched their heads in fustration and "have tried everything they know and nothing has helped to bring these patients into their right minds"?
Please give me one modern and substantiated case with expert witnesses where this has happened?
Yes, Christians that use Jesus's authority are a danger to demons.
So we should be hearing in the headline news around the world how Christians are expelling demons and performing medical miracles? Right?
Chirp, Chirp, Chirp

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by John 10:10, posted 01-24-2009 6:52 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by John 10:10, posted 01-25-2009 4:18 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 74 of 349 (495988)
01-25-2009 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by DevilsAdvocate
01-25-2009 2:17 PM


Re: added "as recorded in the Bible"
Please give me one modern and substantiated case with expert witnesses where this has happened?
Real-life case of demon possession documented

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-25-2009 2:17 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Otto Tellick, posted 01-25-2009 10:02 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
Otto Tellick
Member (Idle past 2330 days)
Posts: 288
From: PA, USA
Joined: 02-17-2008


Message 75 of 349 (496037)
01-25-2009 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by John 10:10
01-25-2009 4:18 PM


Re: added "as recorded in the Bible"
Thank you for that link, John -- that's the sort of reference (finally) that breaks what would otherwise be an endless cycle of requests for clarification from skeptics followed by statements of faith that only clarify things for the faithful.
I followed the reference given in the WorldNetDaily story to the article in the New Oxford Review by Dr. Richard Gallagher. I haven't yet made the full commitment of a $29 subscription fee to the latter organization (I'm not sure I have the proper level of "hunger for the red meat of Catholicism" touted on the NOR homepage), so I have not read the entire Gallagher article.
But the first few paragraphs were displayed free of charge, and within that portion, Gallagher provides a good explanation for why the non-believers and skeptics here a EvC tend to express so much frustration when you give them statements of faith (and bible quotations) in response to requests for clarification:
Richard Gallagher writes:
... For clergy, or indeed anyone involved in the spiritual or psychological care of others, it is equally critical, however, to recognize the many and infinitely more common "counterfeits" (i.e., false assignations) of demonic influence or attack as well.
This need for caution and precision is especially important at a time when untrained laymen or, worse, public ministries may unfortunately mislead or even exploit the faithful in this area. One has only to turn on a television to witness obvious abuses -- for instance, televangelists' dunning their audience for cash as they conduct exhibitionist ceremonies before large assemblies of the overly credulous. ...
Presumably, the evidence presented in the remainder of the article will pose serious challenges for any rational explanation based solely on natural causes as we understand them so far (AbE: assuming that there is available verification for the events described). It is important and useful to all of us, faithful and skeptic alike, to get a clear picture of things that do not yet fit our current scientific understanding of ourselves and our world. It may be that this will push science to discover a natural cause (and a natural treatment), or it may be that various practices based on religion will remain in use because they appear to help where science cannot.
The point is that, when someone asks "What is a demon?", and you want to respond about the reality of such an entity, quoting from the bible alone can only provide part of the answer. Until you get down to here-and-now specifics, the term is wide open for multiple interpretations, and one man's demon can be another man's saint, because the two men are willing to interpret things differently.
Say all you want about how clear and and adequate the content of the bible is for you in your own personal system of belief -- indeed, say all you want about how certain you are that your particular system of belief is shared by all true Christians, and even about how many people there are who fit that description -- it remains purely subjective, having no intrinsic value or validity for other people, unless/until other people either have some shared observable basis for understanding your belief, or else share some internal/subjective experience that is somehow consistent with your own.
And in the latter case, I would submit that you yourself would still have no real basis for confirming that you and these others really have the same beliefs. You might be using the many of the same statements to express your respective beliefs, but without a shared observable basis for comparison, how can you tell whether you have the same understanding of those statements?
{AbE:} One more point, expanding on that last paragraph: when you profess your own personal belief in and relationship with God, this does not, by itself, establish any proof that others have the same belief or relationship. But if you relate your personal beliefs to specific behaviors/opinions with respect to things in the world around you, such that others can tell whether their behaviors/opinions on those things match or differ, then you have a basis for saying whether your beliefs are shared by others, or to what extent they are not shared.
Edited by Otto Tellick, : Added final paragraph.
Edited by Otto Tellick, : (added parenthetical remark, as noted above)

autotelic adj. (of an entity or event) having within itself the purpose of its existence or happening.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by John 10:10, posted 01-25-2009 4:18 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by John 10:10, posted 01-27-2009 12:07 PM Otto Tellick has not replied

  
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