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Author Topic:   Who & what are the demons ?
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 46 of 349 (493947)
01-11-2009 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by John 10:10
01-11-2009 6:00 PM


Hi John,
When Jesus cast them out, the demon possessed people became normal and in the right mind.
Do you have any evidence of this happening outside of the Christian bible...?
Just as the first healing step for an alcoholic or a drug addict is to admit that you are an alcoholic or a drug addict, the same is true for those who are afflicted by demons.
We can see alcohol, drugs. We can physically hold them - trust me . The chemical effects can be visually seen. There is no need for someone to invoke faith, the proof of the effects can be observed, and the causing agents (drugs, alcohol) can be seen too.
With demons, we again must take a persons word for it. We can't visually see them. So, not only would we first have to accept Christianity, the bible (which we are discussing in another thread) which a non-believer can't properly read, we have to accept a man telling me that the demon is in me and that he can cure me - has anyone heard of religious shaman before...?
Our mental wards are full of people that have not been helped by drugs and years of counseling.
Our mental wards are filled with people who have neurological disorders, these disorders are NOT cured by drugs or counseling; sadly they are often not curable at all.
Yes, I'm in favor of following Jesus' example by casting out demons when nothing else man has tried has worked.
Curiously, this was the only way to help people in the Dark Ages, until it was noticed that it did absolutely nothing, and thus medicine came to be known as the cure-all.
Are you suggesting we reject medicine in favor of exorcisms...?
Even Jesus would have to laugh at that one, lol.

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by John 10:10, posted 01-11-2009 6:00 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by John 10:10, posted 01-16-2009 2:50 PM onifre has not replied
 Message 57 by Buzsaw, posted 01-16-2009 8:24 PM onifre has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 47 of 349 (494072)
01-13-2009 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by caldron68
01-11-2009 10:07 PM


Re Demons
Hi cal,
caldron68 writes:
The creation of Satan was not necessary to provide man with a choice between good and evil. As John 10:10 has already pointed out, murder and other evil acts exist without intervention from Satan or his nasty little angels. Free will alone is enough of an excuse for man to do bad things, no devil required. So yes, without Satan there still is evil. It's not just good, good or good.
You don't get it do you?
We are discussing this issue from a Bible view.
God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into him the breath of life and he became a living soul.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
God planted a garden and put this man in it to dress and keep it.
Genesis 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
God told man he could eat of every tree in the garden except of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Now if God had not created the evil devil there would be no tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
There would be no evil.
Therefore there would be no tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Therefore the man would not have had a choice of obeying God by not eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Therefore the man would have never died.
Therefore the man and the woman would still be in the garden dressing and keeping it.
caldron68 writes:
Given this, we can conclude that Satan
You can conclude anything you desire.
The facts are all that matter.
The fact is that if there was no evil devil there would only be two people in the garden fellowshiping with God.
caldron68 writes:
It's not enough that man needs to make a choice between belief and non-belief,
That is a choice you do not have.
You are born not believing in God.
Therefore the only choice you have is to remain where you are or either to believe in God.
Then if you believe in God you have a choice of trusting Him to give you eternal life or remaining where you are. Doomed to spend eternity in the lake of fire.
caldron68 writes:
God is required to inject the devil into the details in order to make things even more difficult.
If there was no evil devil there would be no choice, and you would have never existed.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by caldron68, posted 01-11-2009 10:07 PM caldron68 has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 48 of 349 (494520)
01-16-2009 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by DevilsAdvocate
01-11-2009 8:20 PM


It would be interesting to see some type of case study in which two groups are given separate therapeutic treatments. Let's say 15 people all afflicted with the same condition, say heroine addiction. One group is given professional drug counseling and medicine and the other group of 15 are strictly treated with exorcism by three expert Christian exorcists. Both treatments are administer for 12 months. Then lets compare the two groups.
Exorcism is not primarily for drug/alcohol/porn addictions, although some demonic activity may be involved with these activities. Exorcism is primarily for those who are not in their right mind, for those who cannot resist voices who speak to them telling them to steal, kill and destroy.
Studies for drug/alcohol/porn addictions are already available for all who are willing to look at the results. Just check out the success rate for the government and privately run programs against the success rate of Tenn Challenge.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-11-2009 8:20 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-16-2009 2:51 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 49 of 349 (494521)
01-16-2009 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by onifre
01-11-2009 10:10 PM


Our mental wards are full of people that have not been helped by drugs and years of counseling.
Our mental wards are filled with people who have neurological disorders, these disorders are NOT cured by drugs or counseling; sadly they are often not curable at all.
In Jesus day, He took authority over these demons and cast them out.
Today we just put them in mental wards, and try durgs and counseling for years and years. When drugs and counseling don't work sufficiently enough for them to return to society and normal family life, then they remain in mental wards for life.
I suggest that those who know they have Jesus' authority to cast out demons do so for those who have not been helped in any other way.
Edited by John 10:10, : added "normal"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by onifre, posted 01-11-2009 10:10 PM onifre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-16-2009 2:53 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 50 of 349 (494522)
01-16-2009 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by John 10:10
01-16-2009 2:40 PM


Exorcism is not primarily for drug/alcohol/porn addictions, although some demonic activity may be involved with these activities. Exorcism is primarily for those who are not in their right mind, for those who cannot resist voices who speak to them telling them to steal, kill and destroy.
So you believe in performing exorcism on people inflicted with mental disorders such as bipolar, schizophrenia, tourette's, etc? They are definately not in their "right mind" and many here voices in there heads (good or bad).
What about post-traumatic stress (returning from intense violent events such as wars, etc), these people are usually "not in their right mind" (whatever that entails)? Would you perform exorcism on soldiers coming back from battle in emotional and psychological shambles?
And how would you go about conducting this exorcism ritual on these unfortunate individuals?
Also, don't you consider the conscience that tells what to do or not to do, as a voice inside our heads? If that is the case, and you believe in the existence of this "conscience", than in actuallity everyone who does anything bad (which according to Christians is 100% of the human race) needs their demons exorcised.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by John 10:10, posted 01-16-2009 2:40 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by John 10:10, posted 01-16-2009 2:59 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 51 of 349 (494523)
01-16-2009 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by John 10:10
01-16-2009 2:50 PM


I suggest that those who know they have Jesus' authority to cast out demons do so for those who have not been helped in any other way.
Please indulge us on how this exactly should be done? What specific actions and words?
And why the hell aren't you going around curing all these people of their demons in all the hospitals, mental wards, asylums, jails, etc. Your shirking your God given duties.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by John 10:10, posted 01-16-2009 2:50 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by John 10:10, posted 01-16-2009 3:06 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 52 of 349 (494524)
01-16-2009 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by DevilsAdvocate
01-16-2009 2:51 PM


So you believe in performing exorcism on people inflicted with mental disorders such as bipolar, schizophrenia, tourette's, etc? They are definately not in their "right mind" and many here voices in there heads (good or bad).
No, I believe in performing exorcism for this specific catagory:
They have not been helped by any other means, and cannot resist voices who speak to them telling them to steal, kill and destroy.
Now do you get what I'm saying?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-16-2009 2:51 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-16-2009 3:36 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 55 by Coragyps, posted 01-16-2009 4:57 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 53 of 349 (494525)
01-16-2009 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by DevilsAdvocate
01-16-2009 2:53 PM


I suggest that those who know they have Jesus' authority to cast out demons do so for those who have not been helped in any other way.
Please indulge us on how this exactly should be done? What specific actions and words?
I would follow the examples and the words that Jesus used when He cast out demons.
And why the hell aren't you going around curing all these people of their demons in all the hospitals, mental wards, asylums, jails, etc. Your shirking your God given duties.
Maybe I am. Thanks for encouraging me to do so.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-16-2009 2:53 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 54 of 349 (494526)
01-16-2009 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by John 10:10
01-16-2009 2:59 PM


John 10:10 writes:
Myself writes:
So you believe in performing exorcism on people inflicted with mental disorders such as bipolar, schizophrenia, tourette's, etc? They are definately not in their "right mind" and many here voices in there heads (good or bad).
No, I believe in performing exorcism for this specific catagory:
They have not been helped by any other means, and cannot resist voices who speak to them telling them to steal, kill and destroy.
Um, medical science would diagnose "hearing voices" (officially called auditory hallucination) to some type of physical/mental illness or physical/mental change (usually schizophrenia, delerium, depression, epillepsy, migrains, drug withdrawel, localized or general anathesia or some type of psychosis). As far as "voices telling them to steal, kill or destroy" this isn't even listed in the Bible, so it seems that you are just making this shit up as you go. What the Bible describes is people acting violently (which is why we have a judicial system in today's modern society). Or are you saying every violent person in jail around the world has demon(s) that need to be cast out? It is also ironic to note that many times these evil demons in the Bible are said to be sent from your "benevolent" God:
Judges 9:23-24 writes:
Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech, so that the violence done to the seventy sons of Jerubbaal might come, and their blood might be laid on Abimelech their brother, who killed them, and on the men of Shechem, who strengthened his hands to kill his brothers.
I Kings 22:19-23 writes:
Micaiah said, "Therefore, hear the word of the LORD. I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left.
"The LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?' And one said this while another said that.
"Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'
"The LORD said to him, 'How?' And he said, 'I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' Then He said, 'You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.'
"Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you."
I Samuel 16:14-15 writes:
Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD terrorized him. Saul's servants then said to him, "Behold now, an evil spirit from God is terrorizing you.
I Samuel 19:9-10 writes:
9Now there was an evil spirit from the LORD on Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand, and David was playing the harp with his hand. Saul tried to pin David to the wall with the spear, but he slipped away out of Saul's presence, so that he stuck the spear into the wall. And David fled and escaped that night.
Now do you get what I'm saying?
No, you make absolutely no sense and are a danger to humanity.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by John 10:10, posted 01-16-2009 2:59 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by John 10:10, posted 01-16-2009 5:12 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 55 of 349 (494530)
01-16-2009 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by John 10:10
01-16-2009 2:59 PM


No, I believe in performing exorcism for this specific catagory:
They have not been helped by any other means, and cannot resist voices who speak to them telling them to steal, kill and destroy.
Do demons manufacture dopamine in the striatum of the possessed person's brain? 'Cause that seems to have a lot to do with who gets to hear voices in their head. Do risperidone and aripiprazole repel demons at least part of the time? Are there any studies published on the relative efficacy of those two drugs vs. The Name of Jesus in combatting psychiatric disorders?

"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by John 10:10, posted 01-16-2009 2:59 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 56 of 349 (494532)
01-16-2009 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by DevilsAdvocate
01-16-2009 3:36 PM


No, you make absolutely no sense and are a danger to humanity.
1 Cor 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-16-2009 3:36 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-18-2009 10:42 AM John 10:10 has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 349 (494550)
01-16-2009 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by onifre
01-11-2009 10:10 PM


onifre writes:
Do you have any evidence of this happening outside of the Christian bible...?
Hi Onifre.
1. Who else, as writers or historians, would be privy to this event?
2. What significance would this event have to anyone else?
3. What other ancient manuscripts relative to historical events do we have as near to the alleged ancient historical event in question than the NT?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by onifre, posted 01-11-2009 10:10 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by onifre, posted 01-16-2009 8:49 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 58 of 349 (494552)
01-16-2009 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Buzsaw
01-16-2009 8:24 PM


Hi Buz,
1. Who else, as writers or historians, would be privy to this event?
2. What significance would this event have to anyone else?
3. What other ancient manuscripts relative to historical events do we have as near to the alleged ancient historical event in question than the NT?
My point exactly. The alleged event took place without any witnesses that wrote any other books about the life of said individual.
The only place it is found is in the questionable books of the NT. This is unsupported mythology as are most other stories of this nature that speak of "demons".

"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks
"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Buzsaw, posted 01-16-2009 8:24 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Buzsaw, posted 01-16-2009 9:20 PM onifre has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 349 (494559)
01-16-2009 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by onifre
01-16-2009 8:49 PM


onifre writes:
My point exactly. The alleged event took place without any witnesses that wrote any other books about the life of said individual.
The only place it is found is in the questionable books of the NT. This is unsupported mythology as are most other stories of this nature that speak of "demons".
OK, but what evidence do you have relative to my point 3 which you failed to consider? By your allegation that this near to the event historical manuscript is mythology, woudn't that imply that all other (abe: unverified)ancient historical manuscripts further removed from the events claimed are even more likely mythology as well?
Buz Point 3 writes:
. What other ancient manuscripts relative to historical events do we have as near to the alleged ancient historical event in question than the NT?
Edited by Buzsaw, : Addition as noted
Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by onifre, posted 01-16-2009 8:49 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by onifre, posted 01-16-2009 9:58 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 60 of 349 (494566)
01-16-2009 9:54 PM


Presence of demons
Shouldn`t be too hard to knock up a demon detector. How about an open bible on a stick. You point it at a suspect. If the pages flip, you know you`re getting warm. Or the new, improved Mk. II model, you enclose the works in a glass case to prevent a breeze from giving false positives.

  
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