The evil messengers of the devil. Who was created by God to tempt you and I. So we could make choices in life.
So here is a spin-off question. If God created beings (and has also according to the Bible "sent out") to tempt us and who he knew in advance were evil, would that not make God not only the creator of evil but also evil himself? Even the Bible seems to backs this point up as shown here:
Genesis 2:9 writes:
Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Judges 9:23-24 writes:
Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech, so that the violence done to the seventy sons of Jerubbaal might come, and their blood might be laid on Abimelech their brother, who killed them, and on the men of Shechem, who strengthened his hands to kill his brothers.
I Samuel 16:23 writes:
So it came about whenever the evil spirit from God came to Saul, David would take the harp and play it with his hand; and Saul would be refreshed and be well, and the evil spirit would depart from him.
I Samuel 18:10 writes:
Now it came about on the next day that an evil spirit from God came mightily upon Saul, and he raved in the midst of the house, while David was playing the harp with his hand, as usual; and a spear was in Saul's hand.
I Samuel 19:9 writes:
Now there was an evil spirit from the LORD on Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand, and David was playing the harp with his hand.
II Kings 6:33 writes:
While he was still talking with them, behold, the messenger came down to him and he said, "Behold, this evil is from the LORD; why should I wait for the LORD any longer?"
This was said by Elisha, a chosen prophet of God.
Isaiah 45:7 writes:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things
Amos 3:6 writes:
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"
Lamentations 3:38 writes:
Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, Unless the Lord has commanded it?
Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That both good and evil go forth?
Just a philosophical thought.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
So here is a spin-off question. If God created beings (and has also according to the Bible "sent out") to tempt us and who he knew in advance were evil, would that not make God not only the creator of evil but also evil himself?...Just a philosophical thought.
I don't know if it is philosophical or not.
Thanks for answering my question, ICANT. I guess what I mean by philisophical is that this question pertains to the study of ethics (what behavior is considered right and wrong i.e. morality) which is a subset of philosophy.
I do know there must be good and evil for there to be a choice.
I guess it depends on how do you define good and evil?
Especially from your statements it appears that God created both good and evil. Or is good and evil arbitrarily determined by God and we can not comprehend the reasoning behind the decision of what is good and what is evil.
Also it sounds like "good" and "evil" are created by God and thus dependent on the existence of God rather than existing seperate from the existence of God? If this is true how are you sure that God is truly good and not evil? What standard are you basing this assumption on?
Therefore it was necessary for the devil and his messengera to exist.
It was necessary for what reason? If he knew the havoc and destructions these beings would cause, why create them in the first place? Why create beings who you know in advance would turn against you and then spend eternity in hell? To me that seams sadistic.
The only way for that to happen was for God to create them.
So if God knowingly created evil beings would that not make him evil? And according to the Bible as shown earlier, it acknowledges that he did create evil.
It was also necessary for the first man to disobey God's rule for us to exist.
Why could we not exist without someone disobeying God's rule?
I don't have so much a problem with the rules so much as the hypocricy in the punishment for the disobedience. God accepts murderers, adulterours, child molesters, etc. into heaven as long as they believe in Jesus and ask him for forgiveness. However, if someone has lived a good, decent life and has helped the orphans, homeless, etc but through reason and logic determined that God does not exist and thus asks people he has wronged for forgiveness but not Jesus/God than he will spend eternity tormented in hell.
Here is a rather humorous video I thought that puts this into perspective:
So those that don't like God's plan can tell Him how He should have done things when they meet Him.
Nice cop-out. I am sorry but this is just an attempt not to answer difficult questions. Why should we believe you if you try to avoid answering our questions? Isn't the whole reason for you posting on EvC, to try to save the lost?
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
I do know there must be good and evil for there to be a choice.
I guess it depends on how do you define good and evil?
So if I define murder as good that makes it all right to commit murder. Is that what you are saying?
Um, I guess what I am trying to say is this. You use the reference of God's absolute rules of right and wrong as spelled out in the Bible (in addition the thousand other international, national and municiple laws) to determine what is good and evil. Correct?
I am a moral universalist but not an absolutist, so I believe there are rules of right and wrong that should pertain to all people but I believe these are human created and adopted for the good of the species. Thus we are not only the creators of our own rulebook but we are also the players that are morally confined by it and the referees that enforce it as well. Thus we put into our own hands the decision between good (what is morally acceptable by society) and what is evil (what is not acceptable).
To answer your question. Human society as a whole has determined murder to be wrong (do to the physical and emotional trauma it causes and it is destructive both to individual human beings and to human society as a whole) therefore it is not alright to commit murder. We can see this in numerous moral codes throughout history (not just the Bible) as well as being adopted and mandated by nearly all countries on this planet in the United Nation's Declaration of Human Rights.
That says "I the Lord create evil".
I believe He also stated what was evil and the punishment for evil deeds were. He did give a lot of rules to go by.
But not all the rules? Do you not abide by rules and regulations that are not spoken of in the Bible?
At least it's as good as the "We don't know" I get when I ask where the universe that is at T=10-43 came from.
See my other post here, it will explain why cause and effect before the beginning of time makes no logical sense: Message 63
Now if I say something here that causes someone to question their belief system fine it not fine. I have put forth my view
Thanks for your honest answer.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
Yes the first man made the choice to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Thus he gained the knowledge of evil. Man has been deciding what is good and evil from that day until this day. Regardless of what God said was good and evil.
Rgr, that is your religious belief and explantion for the concept of good and evil. I take a different approach to this as I previously explained.
ICANT writes:
myself writes:
To answer your question. Human society as a whole has determined murder to be wrong
But not everyone.There are those today who are convinced that it is OK to kill.
We are talking about unjustified murder here, not justified killing i.e. war, self-protection, etc. Also, the majority of the human race has agreed that murder is wrong which trumps the psychotic bent of a relative handful of psychopaths.
ICANT writes:
But there was no beginning of eternal time which is one great big now.
And how do you know that time is eternal. If you read my post it would explain the intricate link between time and space and that it has a definate beginning according to current scientific theories. I explain it fully there.
ICANT writes:
Time as you and I know it did have a beginning.
You just contradicted yourself. In one statement you state "there was no beginning of eternal time" and than you say "time as you and I know it did have a beginning". What you are prosing with a distinction between "eternal time" and "terrestrial time", has no evidence to back it up (hear-say unsubstantiated "evidence" from the Bible is not the same as sunstantiated, emperical evidence). Time is time and in fact time is space i.e. spacetime. They are intricately linked as proposed by Albert Einstrin in his General Theory of Relativity and further expounded by later scientists.
As I understand time it is just a concept.
So is gravity and the nuclear forces. They are all man-made concepts which describe real phenomena in our physical universe.
Time is an invention of man and is determined by how long the earth takes to make a complete revolution. If it did not revolve there would be nothing to measure time by.
This is a half-truth. Time is a concept created by man to describe a real phenomena which is the measure of the duration of events and the interval between them. This concept is similar to the concept of gravity which is used to describe the phenomena of matter attracting other matter and the measure of this attractive force.
However, we can measure time without the reference of the Earth. In fact modern atomic clocks do just that. There is no need to reference the revolution or rotation of the Earth to measure the time between oscillations (vibrations) of cesium atoms as done in modern atomic clocks. In fact our entire global satellite sytem depend on the exactness of atomic clocks for mass communication, GPS, national defense, etc to function.
But there would still be eternal time.
How did you determine the existence of this "eternal time"?
My understanding of time could be confused.
I agree. Though I do enjoy the dialog.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
Whatever demons are, they are nasty creatures that can inhabit both humans and animals, and can lead to temporal and eternal destruction and death.
So it is ok for God to cause destruction and death but not nasty little demons?
If/when they inhabit humans, it's best to cast them out as Jesus did, and then fill the void with God's Spirit.
Do you actually believe in exorcism? I guess you think the movie "The Exorcist" is real, huh? Do you say "The power of Christ compels you" or do the hand on the forehead "In the name of Jeeesuss, I command you to come out!" thing? And how exactly do you go filling this void up?
On a more serious note, can you provide any real evidence that demons exist (much less the rest of your supernatural fantasy realm)?
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
Read what I said again. I said demons "can lead to temporal and eternal destruction," not God.
So the Bible's chronicling God commanding the annihilation of the Canaanites including men, women, children, babies, animals as well as pillaging their cities and towns is not destruction? Think again.
Since Jesus believed in real demons and cast them out of persons, I believe in them too.
The current understanding is that many of these "demon possessions" of the 1st century (as well as earlier and later) where nothing more than mental and physical illnesses that people of antiquity could not comprehend much less treat. That is why they resorted to exorcism. In fact this heinous act was a popular way of treating mental disorders up until the 20th century until modern medicine, psychiatry and psychology relegated exorcism as a pseudoscientific, quack, antiquated and downright dangerous practice.
Would you exorcise someone with epilepsy? How about someone suffering from grand mal seizures? Schizophrenia? Bipolar disorder? Depression? Autism? Dementia? How about people speaking in tongues and filled with the spirit in Christian Pentecostal churches?
Your way of thinking is a danger to the medical science and to the existence of modern human beings.
Here is an interesting story which illustrates this backwards, wrong, horrendous and what I consider downright disgusting way of treating tragic mental and physically dibilitating illnesses:
'The Devil in Pictures:The Vatican is steadfast in its defense of exorcism' by Barbie Nadeau, Newsweek International writes:
For the first 22 years of her life, Anneliese Michel was an unremarkable young woman”a teacher in training and part of a devout Roman Catholic family in Germany. She also happened to be an epileptic, and prone to the seizures that often accompany that condition. Somehow, though, her parents convinced themselves that Satan had gotten hold of her soul. They called two local priests, who spent 10 months trying to exorcise the young woman's demons. To avoid interfering with the exorcism, the parents even halted her treatment for epilepsy. Michel finally died, in 1975, at the age of 23, withered and weakened to just 31 kilos from being denied food and water during the exorcism. If the story sounds familiar, that's because it is the premise of Hollywood feature "The Exorcism of Emily Rose," which made its European debut in Italy on Oct. 7. In the real-life case, all four participants in the exorcism were found guilty of negligent homicide, and Michel has been a posthumous European cult hero ever since.
The movie has now reignited a decades-old controversy. A few doctors and scientists have called for an end to exorcisms, or at least for Rome or Brussels to regulate them. The Vatican has responded by digging in its heels. In an effort to add a patina of scientific validity to the ancient practice, which usually involves physical restraint and screaming prayers, last week the church began offering bona fide medical training to its exorcists to help them distinguish between psychological and pathological ailments and possession by the Devil. The class, called Exorcism and Prayers of Deliverance, which began on Oct. 13 at Rome's Athenaeum Pontificium Regina Apostolorium, features mental-health doctors who purport to show which valid medical symptoms can account for those previously thought to be Satan's work. According to Prof. Carlo Climati, one of the course instructors, "With proper scientific study, priests and bishops should be better prepared to distinguish and meet their real foe, the rise of satanic worship." Dr. Scott Lilienfield, professor of psychology at Emory University in Atlanta and an expert in exorcism, disagrees: "Exorcism is the most dangerous hoax in treating mental illness," he says.
BTW if you wonder why I care, my wife has multiple sclerosis, my grandmother has Alzheimer's (as well as dying of cancer) and my nephew is autistic and mentally impaired so I do have some first hand experience in this area.
Maybe you should travel to some places like Hati and Africa and watch them in operation where they openly manifest themselves in the lives of those who honor them.
In most other parts of the world, demons are content with motivating people to kill, steal and destroy as many other humans as possible.
I traveled to over 20 countries in my lifetime including some of the most of the most poverty stricken places on the globe. I have delivered food and aid through humanitarian function both in and out of the Navy to places like Honduras, Central Mexico, Thailand and Indonesia. I have hiked up the Meredon mountains of Honduras and have visited villages with no access even to dirt roads and a weekly killing and eating of a chicken by the village was cause of celebration and bountiful abundance. So don't tell me about visiting other parts of the world. I have literally have been there.
Do you know why they practice exorcism? The practice of exorcism existed long, long before Christianity even came into existence. The earliest religions and cultural practices such as animism was an attempt by humans to explain the unknown. They literally believed that "spirits" existed in everything both animate (animals, water, etc) and inanimate objects (trees, rocks, stars, etc). Some spirits they believed were good and some evil. If people were acting strange or different than what they though they should act, exorcism was an attempt to rectify the situation. As a result of this rampant superstition, lack of education, and the many other detrimental cultural and religious influences on people of that culture, people acted as if they were "demon possessed" i.e. wildly shake, trances, talked gibberish, etc. This behavior was not only condoned but encouraged in order to further demonstrate the power of exorcism as well as increase the power and influence of religious shaman, clergy, etc. Many times exorcism of this "spirit" was a violent act that could potentially kill the subject in the process.
The practice of exorcism unfortunately has made its way into more mainstream and accepted religions such as Christianity, Hinduism, and Islam (as well as many other less known religious beliefs such as Voodoo). Fortunately as people in these areas are educated and medical assistance (like I and other have participated in) is provided; heinous, superstitious acts such as exorcism are kicked to the wayside in favor of more humane treatment of human beings.
Have we not learned enough from history from the Salem Witch Trials, the Inquisition and the like? So don't give me that bullshit superstitious belief that exorcism works. It doesn't. So stop spreading your stupidity.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
hi DA. It was indeed destruction, i.e purging of Jehovah's planet Earth of cultures embedded into demonic pagan doctrines contrary to the welfare of the planet at large.
This action by Jehovah was to establish on planet earth, a messianic kingdom nation which would eventually eliminate all wars and evil regimes on the planet. Thus the re-emergence of the nation of Israel to be consummated at the 2nd advent of Jesus Christ/messiah of planet earth.
Furthermore, this action by Jehovah was specifically designated to one relatively tiny area of real estate on the planet and to a designated nation, the nation of Israel. It was not God's mandate to Dark Age Roman Catholic Popes and Bishops, Islamic Jihadists, German Nazis and Stalinists,etc who took it upon themselves to kill, kill, kill for their own evil regimes and demonic ideologies.
So evidently as long as the destruction, rape, pillaging, infanticide, slavery, etc is localized to one spot on the globe it is ok for God to do the killing and enslavement but it isn't for anyone else. Oh, and BTW what about the global flood in which everything was destroyed men, women, children, babies, animals, etc. that wasn't localized.
LOL, you will justify anything (not even short of outright homicide) and you say that atheists have moral relativity.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
Lucifer, the bright and shining angel, whoever he was, evidently once held a high position in God's kingdom but exercised free will to exalt himself in the north parts of the cosmos above Jehovah's throne.
Is this north part of the cosmos in which Lucifer reigned, north or south of Syracuse?
Sorry couldn't resist.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
But do you honestly say that you have never come across any person in all your travels who demonstrated demonic powers? Christian missionaries can testify that they have routinely witnessed demonic powers in their travels, especially in Hati and Africa.
I do not automatically relegate this type of behavior (usually encouraged by the local shaman or witch doctor) to some type of influence by some supernatural evil force, no.
Yes, you can give a few examples of how exorcism was used in a wrong way. But I suggest we go back to examples that occurred in the life of Jesus, and follow His examples when needed.
So do you believe that we should exorcise demons in todays modern society? And if so, in what method this would be invoked?
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
Just as the first healing step for an alcoholic or a drug addict is to admit that you are an alcoholic or a drug addict, the same is true for those who are afflicted by demons. Counseling does not generally work well in these situations. Our mental wards are full of people that have not been helped by drugs and years of counseling.
It would be interesting to see some type of case study in which two groups are given separate therapeutic treatments. Let's say 15 people all afflicted with the same condition, say heroine addiction. One group is given professional drug counseling and medicine and the other group of 15 are strictly treated with exorcism by three expert Christian exorcists. Both treatments are administer for 12 months. Then lets compare the two groups.
I have proposed a new topic to discuss exorcism because I believe this to be slightly off topic and needs more space to discuss its validity.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
Exorcism is not primarily for drug/alcohol/porn addictions, although some demonic activity may be involved with these activities. Exorcism is primarily for those who are not in their right mind, for those who cannot resist voices who speak to them telling them to steal, kill and destroy.
So you believe in performing exorcism on people inflicted with mental disorders such as bipolar, schizophrenia, tourette's, etc? They are definately not in their "right mind" and many here voices in there heads (good or bad).
What about post-traumatic stress (returning from intense violent events such as wars, etc), these people are usually "not in their right mind" (whatever that entails)? Would you perform exorcism on soldiers coming back from battle in emotional and psychological shambles?
And how would you go about conducting this exorcism ritual on these unfortunate individuals?
Also, don't you consider the conscience that tells what to do or not to do, as a voice inside our heads? If that is the case, and you believe in the existence of this "conscience", than in actuallity everyone who does anything bad (which according to Christians is 100% of the human race) needs their demons exorcised.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
I suggest that those who know they have Jesus' authority to cast out demons do so for those who have not been helped in any other way.
Please indulge us on how this exactly should be done? What specific actions and words?
And why the hell aren't you going around curing all these people of their demons in all the hospitals, mental wards, asylums, jails, etc. Your shirking your God given duties.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
So you believe in performing exorcism on people inflicted with mental disorders such as bipolar, schizophrenia, tourette's, etc? They are definately not in their "right mind" and many here voices in there heads (good or bad).
No, I believe in performing exorcism for this specific catagory:
They have not been helped by any other means, and cannot resist voices who speak to them telling them to steal, kill and destroy.
Um, medical science would diagnose "hearing voices" (officially called auditory hallucination) to some type of physical/mental illness or physical/mental change (usually schizophrenia, delerium, depression, epillepsy, migrains, drug withdrawel, localized or general anathesia or some type of psychosis). As far as "voices telling them to steal, kill or destroy" this isn't even listed in the Bible, so it seems that you are just making this shit up as you go. What the Bible describes is people acting violently (which is why we have a judicial system in today's modern society). Or are you saying every violent person in jail around the world has demon(s) that need to be cast out? It is also ironic to note that many times these evil demons in the Bible are said to be sent from your "benevolent" God:
Judges 9:23-24 writes:
Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech, so that the violence done to the seventy sons of Jerubbaal might come, and their blood might be laid on Abimelech their brother, who killed them, and on the men of Shechem, who strengthened his hands to kill his brothers.
I Kings 22:19-23 writes:
Micaiah said, "Therefore, hear the word of the LORD. I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left.
"The LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?' And one said this while another said that.
"Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'
"The LORD said to him, 'How?' And he said, 'I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' Then He said, 'You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.'
"Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you."
I Samuel 16:14-15 writes:
Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD terrorized him. Saul's servants then said to him, "Behold now, an evil spirit from God is terrorizing you.
I Samuel 19:9-10 writes:
9Now there was an evil spirit from the LORD on Saul as he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand, and David was playing the harp with his hand. Saul tried to pin David to the wall with the spear, but he slipped away out of Saul's presence, so that he stuck the spear into the wall. And David fled and escaped that night.
Now do you get what I'm saying?
No, you make absolutely no sense and are a danger to humanity.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
1 Cor 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Myself writes:
No, you make absolutely no sense and are a danger to humanity.
That's nice. You did read my signature statement below by Carl Sagan correct? That's my answer to your use of this scripture.
BTW, you cannot win a logical argument using religious scripture (or any acclaim to authority) unless you can provide evidence of why we should be believe this scripture or authority to be true in the first place. And, no you cannot use the Bible itself to prove its validity or that would constitute circular reasoning (begging the question).
Here is a good site to understand what the different types of logical fallacies are: Fallacies
Yes, yes I know I am giving away trade secrets to the opposing side.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
Then why are you even in this section of the forum where Believers in the Lord Jesus Christ get to explain to unbelievers what Faith & Belief are all about, and how the Lord gives His authority over demons to those who honor Him?
You are really dense you know that? Here is what the description of the "Faith and Belief" forum (part of Social & Religious Issues) reads "Is God an objective reality or a subjective concept?", this say nothing about "where Believers in the Lord Jesus Christ get to explain to unbelievers what Faith & Belief are all about". This is a neutral forum in which to discuss the validity of God and religion nothing more. It is not a evangalism forum. If you want that go to GodTube or some Christian Evangalism forum.
Demons certainly knew that Jesus was the Son of God (Luke 4:41). Demons themselves are quite content for you to remain in your unbelief, while the evil they cause abounds all around you.
That's nice. Please come back when you can conduct a logical and rational debate on this topic. Otherwise no one is going to take you seriously.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
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