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Author Topic:   What is matter?
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5559 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 30 of 54 (484289)
09-27-2008 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by onifre
09-27-2008 4:01 PM


onifre writes:
Also, the beauty of Loop QG is that it removes the Big Bang singularity and infinty from the equations, and proposes a Big Bounce, also a favorite of mine.
Big Bounce - Wikipedia
It removes the singularity at the expense of introducing infinity(infinte number of Big Bangs and consequent universes) but i'll look into this theory more closely.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by onifre, posted 09-27-2008 4:01 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by onifre, posted 09-27-2008 5:18 PM Agobot has replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5559 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 32 of 54 (484298)
09-27-2008 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by onifre
09-27-2008 5:18 PM


"According to some oscillatory universe theorists, the Big Bang was merely the beginning of a period of expansion that followed a period of contraction. In this view, one could talk of a Big Crunch followed by a Big Bang, or more simply, a Big Bounce. This suggests that we might be living in the first of all universes, but are equally likely to be living in the 2 billionth universe (or any of an infinite other sequential universes)."
Big Bounce - Wikipedia

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by onifre, posted 09-27-2008 5:18 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by onifre, posted 09-27-2008 5:54 PM Agobot has replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5559 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 34 of 54 (484314)
09-27-2008 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by onifre
09-27-2008 5:54 PM


onifre writes:
I wouldn't call that infinity as equal to the BB singularity though...
The difference being that we know the Universe exists. If the physics behind Loop QG holds then we explain how it expanded, how it crunchs, and how it repeats the process, of the universe. That it can occur at infinum is irrelevant to origin, death, and re-birth. We know there is a universe, just because it can repeat the process doesn't add a mystical aspect to it.
If it can repeat the process infinite number of times, it will bring mysticism. If it cannot, then the start of the first Big Bang will be pretty much unexplainable(unless it didn't pop out of other dimensions that were themselves infinite in numbers). Or if you posit that the emergence of the universe doesn't have to make sense to us, it will simply wipe out all science efforts and bring even more gods and monsters. There is no theory that solves all problems(yet).

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 Message 33 by onifre, posted 09-27-2008 5:54 PM onifre has replied

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 Message 37 by onifre, posted 09-27-2008 10:10 PM Agobot has replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5559 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 40 of 54 (484391)
09-28-2008 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by onifre
09-27-2008 10:10 PM


onifre writes:
How so? Explain...
Perhaps to you but, I see no need for mysticism. We are talking about physics here. The only place any of this makes sense.
This is more meta-physics than real physics, unless you want to show me an example of "infinity" or "eternity" from our macro physical world.
Abstract mathemathics is not always confirmed in our reality by a long shot. In fact, very often mathematics lies outside our "reality" and scientists are struggling to reconcile their mathematical findings to the laws of our Newtonian world. this probably has to do with our perception of reality and the fact taht we have 2 so very immensely different worlds here that scientists are in awe as to how to go about uniting them. Or as physicist Freeman Dyson pointed out "The road to the unified field theory is littered with the corpses". Same goes for Michio Kaku who is selected to work on the Theory of everything - "sadly, every attempt to merge these 2 theories has failed, some of the greatest mind of our century have tackled this problem, only to be unsuccessful."
As a matter of fact we live in two different worlds at the same time - the world we know quite well from our daily lives and the quantum world. They are sooo vastly different that probably I have more in common with my pekingese than our physical world has with the quantum one. In the quantum world particles have no disctinct location(they can be in 2 or multiple places - uncertainty principle), they can break the speed of light(spooky action at a distance), "stuff" can be particles and waves at the same time, etc.
The contrast between our world and the quantum world is so vast, that Einstein refused to believe in the Quantum theory. And as far as i can tell - the border between the 2 worlds lie merely in our minds and our distorted perception of reality. That makes me think the 2 worlds will never be united, unless we solve the big mistery of the perception of our reality.
onifre writes:
You can't just manipulate thoeries to sound mystical, even if equations go to infinum, or the number of bounces go to infinum, you have to remember that they only go to infinum on paper, and based off of our mathematics. For all we know this is the first universe ever and it's just our equations telling us otherwise.
I'll let Einstein handle my reply to this statement - "I believe that if a theory couldn't be broadly explained to a child it wasn't working. I believe that there should be a picture behind the theory."
Although at the end of his life he almost lost himself in equasions and there was no "picture" guiding him, I do believe that if you can't explain a theory of the creation of the Universe to a 16 year old, it's probably bogus. Introducing more uncertainty by saying we don't know what happened before the 2000(or any number of) births of universes, does not solve the mystery of the creation of the universe. It simply sends it further into the oblivion of the untestable and unknowable.
onifre writes:
In fact outside of theoretical physics none of the math means anything to anyone. You can't just take the conceptual idea of the Big Bounce and turn it into a mystical ideology because of your limited understanding of it, this is physics man.
I agree that it solves the singularity riddle but at the same time it introduces "the unknown" that was at the start of all big bangs. That's why this theory is only a fractual theory and it takes quite a bit of religious belief in science to make you a hard atheist(if you are). And to me, the singularity popping out of nowhere makes more sense than an "unknown" behind the start of multiple big bangs(and most of the scientists believe in the singularity altough that fact doesn't lend more credibility to their theory). But all the theories so far(multiverse, multiple big bangs in an eternal universe, multiple dimensions..) leave the door at least partly open for gods, because we are looking for an elusive beginning or a cause - that's why Einstein and Michio Kaku(from the little i read so far on him) are trying to "read the mind of god", where god could simply be a set of laws we have not yet discovered or a simulation played by an alien race, or simply the unknown. IMHO(I could be wrong), all the unsolved riddles of the beginning(if there ever was one) lie in our perception of reality and the border between the quantum and the classical world.
"Decoherence" could be a way out of the quantum world but scientists are still working in that direction and it still seems to make us much sense as a spaghetti monster. Basically it superimposes the role of the observer in defining the world around us(our reality). But if physics tells us that that is correct and is what constitutes our "reality", maybe we should just swallow that fact, whether we like it or not. That is until we understand what really constitutes an "observer" and so far science is hopeless.
Edited by Agobot, : Spelling
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : Sorry for the edits

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by onifre, posted 09-27-2008 10:10 PM onifre has not replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5559 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 41 of 54 (484398)
09-28-2008 7:29 AM


I'm not going to do another edit as i will get a suspension, but just to continue my thoughts from the previous post - the whole decoherence stuff seems to imply that the world may have looked quite different before the arrival of the "observer" - i.e. us. Either we are going into a wrong direction or the "reality" may never reveal its secrets to us(i.e. the software will not "know" what the computer running it truly is). Or my imagination is too limited and flawed.
But from the evolutionary point of view, one could argue that reality emerges out of the evolutionary context. 10 millions years ago our ancestors would hardly see themselves if they looked in the mirror. A cat does not see itself in the mirror, in that context i would argue that each successive evolutionary species in humans brings more "reality", more detail to the picture of realism(although realism is a wrod my human mind struggles to comprehend). So as evolution brings more reality to us, we are made more environment-aware, i.e. we and evolution create our reality. Everything gets more real until we reach a certain level(the level Einstein was stuck in and the level we are still stuck in) where reality simply falls apart and you understand that reality is simply an illusionary creation of the mind(where the mind is the creation of the brain, and the brain itself is the miraculous creation of the fields surrounding the nuclei of atoms - what we perceive as "matter").
But if you believe in causuality, you'd ask what/who sets this realistic illusion in motion? Unfortunately neither i nor science has found an answer and i'll just label it "Mind" although this word is practically devoid of any concrete meaning in the context of our daily lives.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5559 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 42 of 54 (484419)
09-28-2008 1:42 PM



It's all a Big fucking ugly lie and I think scientists are the saddest persons in the world. In moments like this let me quote the greatest mind of the 20th century - uncle Einstein:
"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views."
"The fanatical atheists, are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who--in their grudge against traditional religion as the 'opium of the masses'-- cannot hear the music of the spheres."
Let's just say that uncle Einstein burst my bubble about life and that if i was a woman i'd probably be crying. QM is the future of mankind although its discoveries are very grim in certain ways. I will not take part in any further discussion on QM as it's disturbing me and I am afraid might disturb other people too.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5559 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 44 of 54 (484532)
09-29-2008 10:03 AM


What the fuck is this?
Would somebody care to wake me up? WTF is this horrible dream?
Here is Einstein's reply to a fellow scientist:
"Do you really believe that the Moon exists only when you look at it?"
And guess what? Later Einstein was proven wrong. The moon does exist only when we look at it.
Later Einstein met Bohr in Copenhagen and responded:
"It didn't matter if particles might affect one another over vast distances, or that particles had no observable properties before they are observed."
As Bohr later said, "There is no quantum world. There is only an abstract quantum physical description."
The reason we see our world as we do is because of what we use to observe it. The human body is a just barely adequate measuring device(it can only measure larger bodies of God knows what, there is no word for it, let's just call it a horrible delusion). We just do not have the sensitivity to observe the quantum world and quantum effects around us with our innate sensors - eyes, brain, etc). In essence we do create the classical world we perceive, and as Brukner said, "There could be other classical worlds completely different from ours".
And on top of that there are no real particles, fuck. As we go deeper in the quantum world every building block of matter is just wave and energy(quarks, electron, gluons, etc). There are no real particles with physical dimensions in this "world". It turns out everything in our pathetic existence is made out of nothing(physical) - the Moon, the Sun, the Universe, your children, your mothers and fathers, your EVERYTHING. They simply don't exist physically. Everything is a silly, fucking distorted perception.
From Wikipedia:
"All of these factors combined such that the very notion of a discrete "particle" has been ultimately replaced by the concept of something like wave-packet of an uncertain boundary, whose properties are only known as probabilities, and whose interactions with other "particles" remain largely a mystery, even 80 years after quantum mechanics was established."
Subatomic particle - Wikipedia
Would somebody prove me wrong, that we are not made of energy and wave? That the whole world is not hanging in the air like a cheap Chinese gizmo?
Would somebody prove these guys wrong:
Quantum physics says goodbye to reality
Page not found – Physics World
This is disturbing and i long thought before posting this. I think you have to know the truth, if everything Einstein was fighting against, is correct.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by cavediver, posted 09-29-2008 10:30 AM Agobot has replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5559 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 46 of 54 (484541)
09-29-2008 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by cavediver
09-29-2008 10:30 AM


Re: What the fuck is this?
cavediver writes:
Yep, that's pretty much it. Except I say "Wow, that's amazing!" How we respond to major paradigm shifts says far more about our own particular state of mind at that time, than anything really about the paradigm shift itself. In a week, month or year, you'll be in another stae of mind and will be delighted by these revelations. Just wait and see. As long as ice cream still tastes as good, sex feels as good, and mountains, caves, and the night sky still look as good, then no harm done...
But wait, this is by FAR the biggest revolution Mankind has ever gone through. Nothing ever can compare to this. Why isn't the whole fucking world talking about this? Because it's disgusting? Because it's disturbing? Because the people who know this are afraid to break the news?
Sorry guys, this will make a profound dent in the lives of most of you, but I felt you have to know the truth. This is what brought Einstein's certainty when he talked about there being some kind of God(Mind). This will change this forum forever but at least we have a new direction to focus our attention.
This is a small description of the last 30 years of Einstein's life:
"What was it that drove him into virtual solitude, to the point in which he was essentially excommunicated from a physics community of which he was such an influential and revered leader at one time?
Many historians have said that Einstein lost his sense of direction, his uncanny instincts that once guided him so precisely. Yet he never wavered in his beliefs, in his deep sense of destiny that continued to guide him to the very end of his life. Fifty-one years later there are still many unanswered questions, and no real answers have yet evolved."
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

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 Message 45 by cavediver, posted 09-29-2008 10:30 AM cavediver has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Percy, posted 09-29-2008 11:52 AM Agobot has replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5559 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 48 of 54 (484553)
09-29-2008 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Percy
09-29-2008 11:52 AM


Re: Odd you feel this way...
Percy writes:
Regarding characterizations such as disgusting and disturbing, I can't really say I undertand your feelings. Were you similarly disoriented when you discovered that newspaper photographs are actually composed of many tiny dots, or that people are actually made up of many tiny cells, or that matter is made up of many tiny atoms? The underlying quantum reality does not affect the reality of the macro world of daily experience, it is merely the lowest level we've found so far of that which underlies reality, just as at one time atoms were the lowest level.
--Percy
You wanted to attract attention and you did in a very cheap way. Is there anything else you want to do in this thread?

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 Message 47 by Percy, posted 09-29-2008 11:52 AM Percy has not replied

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 Message 49 by AdminNosy, posted 09-29-2008 1:19 PM Agobot has not replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5559 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 50 of 54 (484570)
09-29-2008 3:28 PM


"World"
So whose "world" is this? Anybody care to guess? If Einstein couldn't pull us out of the darkness, who could? I look at my wife and I know she's not really there, my kid is screaming and she's also not there, it's an illusion - there is no physical entity there, just a realistic illusion that my mind creates. I "live" in this "world" but very often lately i just break down, it ruins my sleep. Why should i trust my mind about what's real, when experience and science prove my mind is totally wrong? And having illusions in medicine equals "mentally deranged".
What does the word "mentally deranged" mean? Someone who does not share your illusion? Someone who nature could not give the same common illusion? Or the production assembly made a glitch in his brain?
What do drugs do to our perception of reality? Has anyone tried any drugs? Hard drugs that could alter your perception of "reality" completely. Like seeing dragons and people attacking you? Was it as real as our everyday life illusion(I think i know someone i could ask but it will take me a few days)?
I think there are a lot of answers "hidden" in the mentally deranged persons. I never really took interest in them, but now i want to spend some time exploring their "world" and this will probably be what i'll be spending my time on in the next years.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by AdminNosy, posted 09-29-2008 5:24 PM Agobot has not replied
 Message 52 by onifre, posted 09-29-2008 6:43 PM Agobot has not replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5559 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 53 of 54 (484669)
09-30-2008 6:24 PM


What is matter?
I thought we reached a point where we needed help from the most credible sources, so I sent emails this morning to Prof.Steven Hawking, Dr.Michio Kaku and Prof.Lisa Randall of Harvard University. Besides the obvious relevant questions about matter and reality(which happens to be the topic of this thread), I inserted links to the discussion in hope that maybe we could stir up some kind of discussion if any of the 3 responds. I'll keep you posted.

  
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