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Author | Topic: The Unbended Curved Bar Space Slugout Thread | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Straggler Member Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Straggler, your non-answer totally avoided answering the two questions. We need yes or no answers and why. The point is that the need for 4D is required whatever the answer to the questions may be. Your ongoing inability to recognise this is just becoming increasingly embarrassing...... However have it your way.
Suppose my 3D not bended straight bar model were to extend suddenly (abe: from 3 ft.) to beyond the edge of the universe. 1. What could possibly stop it or curve it? 2. Abe: Would it's ends connect? 1. In curved space it would have to exist in that curved space and so would itself be curved. In non-curved space it would not. 2. In a curved 4D spherical universe yes. In a non-curved universe no. I hope that answers your questions. The fact that whether space is curved or non-curved you still need a 4D model remains true
All you did is repeat your unsubstantiated claim that 4D is required without answering the questions. Jesus you are one stubborn old dude. A child can see that 3 dimensions are insufficiant. Regardless of curvature bent bars or anything else. How many times do I have to repeat this? If you want to model motion you must use a 4D model. 3 spatial co-ordinates and one time co-ordinate. 4 axes. 4 dimensions. Without this you cannot model changes in 3D position as time progresses. You cannot model velocity. You cannot model acceleration. It just cannot be done. YOUR 3D MODEL OF THE UNIVERSE CANNOT REPRESENT OBJECTS MOVING. IT IS NO MODEL AT ALL. IT IS A JOKE When we say a 4D model all we mean is that time is represented by an axes on a graph in the same way that the 3 spatial dimensions are. This allows a time component which makes it possible to model change in time. This is required regardless of curvature and regadless of any bent straight bar theories. 4D is not the evil ungodly cause of everything you object to here. That is the point. You have repeatedly said the use of 4D is unjustified obfurscation, mathematical bamboozlement, a huge con trick and all sorts of other wild (and quite frankly insulting) assertions. 4D is used because 4D is absoluetly essentail to any viable model. Your ongoing inability to grasp this incredibly simple concept really does make you look foolish.
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DrJones* Member Posts: 2285 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 7.4 |
There you go again, attempting to slip in the time non-spatial time dimension which has nothing to do with my 3D rigid bar through the back door
This isn't about your model Buz, thats further down the line once we establish whether or not you can count to 4. soon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world And so there was only one thing I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On *not an actual doctor
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Straggler writes: 1. In curved space it would have to exist in that curved space and so would itself be curved. In non-curved space it would not. 1. What would curve it, even considering your spacetime argument? It's extension is instant, having nothing whatsoever to do with the non-spatial time dimension. 2. The bar does not move. It just extends. The questions remain unanswered: 1. What property of space would curve the suddenly extended bar? 2. What would cause the bar's 2 ends to connect? BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
DrJones writes: This isn't about your model Buz, thats further down the line once we establish whether or not you can count to 4. See message 228.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
cavediver writes: What do you mean by continuoysly extended? How do you 'continuously extend' a photon? Do you mean, trace out the path that photon would take? I mean assuming it had enough energy to extend continuously, perpendicular to it's event horizon.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Codegate responds to me:
quote: That doesn't help. As you say, all you've done is replace one undefined concept, "straight," with another undefined concept, "parallel." As the examination of Euclidean geometry has shown us, "parallel" is an axiomatic property and is not derived. It is because of changes to the Fifth Postulate that we came up with non-Euclidean geometries.* Since we're dealing with space rather than imposing a mathematical construct, it would be more helpful if we could come up with a physical definition. At any rate, what we really need is an answer from Buzsaw himself: "Straight" is defined as the path a photon takes in vacuum. Does he agree with that definition or not? * And even then, the Fifth Postulate doesn't mention the concept of "parallel." Instead, it simply says that if two straight lines are crossed by a transversal such that the interior angles on one side are less than two right angles, then the two straight lines, if extended indefinitely, will meet on that side. From this, we can derive what we commonly know as "parallel," but notice how the concept is constructed. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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DrJones* Member Posts: 2285 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 7.4 |
See message 228
Like I said, once we establish your ability to count to 4 we'll go over why your model is bullshit. Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given. soon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world And so there was only one thing I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On *not an actual doctor
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DrJones* Member Posts: 2285 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 7.4 |
1. What property of space would curve the suddenly extended bar?
The curvature of space 2. What would cause the bar's 2 ends to connect? soon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world And so there was only one thing I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On *not an actual doctor
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Codegate Member (Idle past 839 days) Posts: 84 From: The Great White North Joined: |
Hey Buz
I'm trying to understand what you mean by dimensionally straight. By my thinking, 'straight' is the shortest distance between any two points. So, if you had a perfectly straight iron bar and you picked any two points on that bar, you could say that the shortest path between those two points follows the bar. Does this match your definition? Thanks!
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3664 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
I mean assuming it had enough energy to extend continuously All photons 'extend continuously', irrespective of their energy. That's what they do - until they are absorped by something, that is. The photon will follow the straighest line through space and will whip around the black hole and arrive back at its starting point and will endlessly orbit. If you start constructing a perfectly straight bar along this direction, you will end up making a loop
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Codgegate writes: Hey BuzI'm trying to understand what you mean by dimensionally straight. By my thinking, 'straight' is the shortest distance between any two points. So, if you had a perfectly straight iron bar and you picked any two points on that bar, you could say that the shortest path between those two points follows the bar. Does this match your definition? Thanks! Hi Cogegate. My bar model would have two ends which would be the points of the straight bar. If you've been reading you will see that I showed where Merriam Webster gave two somewhat different definitions of straight, (a) being the most common and (b) being the linear curvature rendition of the word/term compatible with the mainline BB physics POV. I believe the first would be considered the Newtonian definition which I go by on the bar model which is the more realistically coherent to reality of the 3 spatial dimensions of the Universe. The buck stops with the BBT (Big Bang Theory) so far as spacetime curvature etc. I'm little David going for the temple of Goliath with my smooth little stone on this one. I'm convinced that I'm on the side of the truth and the BBT (Goliath) with all the kings men of the Philistines (mainline science community) are vulnerable, having thrown the logic and sense baby out with the bathwater so far as making sense in science goes. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
cavediver writes: All photons 'extend continuously', irrespective of their energy. That's what they do - until they are absorped by something, that is. The photon will follow the straighest line through space and will whip around the black hole and arrive back at its starting point and will endlessly orbit. If you start constructing a perfectly straight bar along this direction, you will end up making a loop Of course, factoring in the time dimension. What about my sudden extension bar model where time is not a factor relative to my recent posts? BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Buzsaw responds to cavediver:
quote: Time has nothing to do with it.
quote: As soon as you define what "straight" means, we can determine what happens to those two ends. "Straight" is defined as the path a photon takes in vacuum. Do you agree with this definition or not? Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
PaulK writes: Buzsaw writes:
Suppose my 3D not bended straight bar model were to extend suddenly (abe: from 3 ft.) to beyond the edge of the universe.1. What could possibly stop it or curve it? 2. Abe: Would it's ends connect? Assuming a closed universe, that the bar is straight in our three dimensions and that it doesn't have magic properties that let it break out of our three-dimensional space: 1) It would run into itself. Even if it was curved it would have to do that eventually. 2) If it was straight, they would. I don't see that as a forthright answer. Your answer isn't making much sense. How about rephrasing it for clarification. Since time wouldn't be a factor, we need to know what causes the bar model to allegedly curve and it's ends to connect. As I understand it, you people have been agreeing that a 3D model would not curve without the time dimension causing the curvature. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
Buzsaw writes:
quote: The nature of space does it, it would seem. Second question: If we carried out this experiment of yours and found that the ends connected, how would that affect your claim?
quote: Incorrect. Time really has nothing to do with it. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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