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Author Topic:   A Teacher on the Front Line
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2543 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 18 of 26 (480835)
09-06-2008 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Beretta
09-02-2008 10:21 AM


The Same Questions?
quote:
whoever Beretta is replying to writes:
Science and religion just ask different questions
Beretta's response writes:
Not when it comes to evolution. We ask the same questions -what are we doing here? Where did we come from? For a religious viewpoint to have any validity, it has to resonate with reality -they are not two different realities. What happened and why we are here -the answer has to be the truth not just what makes you happy.

You've got this totally wrong. Evolution and religion are not asking the same question. "What are we doing here" and "where did we come from" are each two different questions. Evolution is asking about the physical world. It answers in physical terms. Religion is asking about the spiritual world. It answers in the terms of spirituality--symbols and metaphors.
Evolution and other sciences:life is related (genetics), humans and chimps and bonobos are closely related and have a common ancestor.
Religion: all things are god's handiwork, a manifestation of his love and power. Thus are all things related.
Religion and evolution can ask "where did we come from" and answers that are different from each other because each one is asking about different parts of "reality". Evolution has nothing more to say than we come a pre-biotic system that produced organic compounds and eventually single-celled life. This life eventually took on new forms (some becoming multi-celled and that diversifying into multiple body plans), etc etc etc. Religion asks that question and wonders what God's plan was and why he made things or what is meant by his actions.
This happens when you aks "what are we doing?" Science gives you a cut-and-dried answer. We are born, we eat, we grow, we live, we reproduce, we die, we adapt, and the cycle continues. Religion is interested in what we do for God, what God put us here for, or whatever.
The conflict between religion and science isn't over facts or that they are trying to answer the same exact question (although that certainly does happen). The conflict is that certain religious people think that science conflicts, theologically, with their religion. They can't separate religion and science into the two separate categories they rightfully belong to. Religion becomes science and science religion. And when science says something different from their religion, they can't handle it because they don't see that the two are different. So just like Bryce said, proving the piece of wood did not come from the ark would not destroy his faith. Proving that the flood didn't happen, or that Genesis does not have the right order of the appearance of life doesn't matter, because faith isn't about facts. Religion isn't about scientific, isn't about physical accuracy. Religion is about the spiritual meaning that lies behind certain events, such as the creation of the world and the universe and life.
It's a shame most religious people who are stuck in this trap will never see it all for what it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Beretta, posted 09-02-2008 10:21 AM Beretta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Beretta, posted 09-07-2008 11:40 AM kuresu has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2543 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 24 of 26 (481102)
09-09-2008 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Beretta
09-09-2008 10:11 AM


weak faith
If I can't even believe the first chapter of the history of life given by the creator to the people who were there in the beginning , then why should I believe any of it?
I assume you speak of genesis. Let's see. We have a problem with the very first sentences.
KJB writes:
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth
Well, if 'earth' is the planet we live on, this is false. Not only did the sun come first, there are about 10 billion years of astronomical history to account for before our planet shows up. If you want to stretch 'heaven' to mean that, fine.
Fortunately for you, the KJB gets the next few lines barely right (and only by stretching). Light didn't exactly come first, but it's not like anything recognizable existed, so you're off the hook. Oh, but wait. Before light existed water was around. At least, if you ask Genesis. According to astronomical history, light was around well before water. That's because the big bang only made hydrogen, dueterium (an isotope of hydrogen), and some helium. Oxygen is made by nuclear fusion, which after the big bang requires stars. Stars generate light. So as we can see, Genesis is already wrong by well accepted astronomical theory. But let's continue.
Genesis then paints a very screwy picture. Apparently, after heaven was created, you have water above and below heaven. So much for being able to stretch 'heaven' to be all astronomical history. There is no 'above' or 'below' space.
Next up we have the creation of earth, which apparently results from water being collected into one place. Well, this is wrong. The Earth existed well before there was water on Earth. Note that I'm saying water ON earth. Water did exist before our planet existed. I suggest you read a book about the early geological history of the earth. It'll set you straight. And keep in mind, this is pretty well accepted (as in, refused only by YEC-nuts).
What's next:
KJB writes:
And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Now we havea major problem (no surprise). The record of life is clear. Plants first appeared around the Cambrian period, so plants first appeared around 540 million years ago. And these plants were naught but algae. This means that plants appear after not only animals, but bacteria and archae, which first appeared about 3.7 billion years ago. Even if you dispute the actual dates, plants are relative newcomers in the life system. Further, as previosly said, the first plants are algae, not grasses, herbs, and fruit trees. Further, since fruit trees are flowering plants, fruit trees would have only started appearing during the Cretacious period, or 150 million years ago. Where are the non-flowering plants (that aren't grasses or herbs) in genesis? Nowhere in the creation story.
KJB writes:
And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Here we see that the earth and the plants exist before the sun and the moon. Three problems here. First problem: The sun is older than the earth. The earth is older than the moon. By genesis, the earth is older than both. Second problem: plants need light to make energy. Starlight is insufficient for plants (nevermind that they didn't exist until the sun and moon came into being according to genesis). And while there was light, God apparently had to make it twice, because the first light for some reason doesn't exist on earth. He made them to separate day and night. Since the sun provides all the light during the day (and our temperature, which means the earth must have been extremely cold--a good guess would be as cold as the dark side of the moon--there would be no liquid water, only ice), those plants he made would have died. Now for the third problem:the moon is not a separate source of light. It is a rocky body which reflects the light of the sun. Genesis claims, in effect, that is generates its own light, which would require the moon to be a star, and we would now no longer exist because our two-star system would have consumed us (keep in mind, we're only 200,000 miles from the moon, nothing compared to the size of even a sun.
I'm not going to continue because I've made my point abudnantly clear by now. Genesis is wrong! Even by basic scientific knowledge that is non-controversial it is wrong! Which means your faith is based on non-reality based beliefs. Your faith, by your very statements, is worthless.
But I'm sure you'll find away around the facts, especially by pulling the oldest trick in the book--if it disagrees with the bible, the item in disagreement is wrong, not the bible. What a pathetic, weak faith you have, to worship a God who cannot even survive his own creation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Beretta, posted 09-09-2008 10:11 AM Beretta has not replied

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