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Author Topic:   "Imagine no religion..."
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 46 of 61 (480662)
09-05-2008 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Fosdick
09-03-2008 7:11 PM


Re: ????????
Why would you want to call atheism a religion?
Good question. Atheism, like other "religions" is a world view. It is a system of beliefs (No God, no afterlife (all atheists believe in no form of afterlife???), no higher divine authority, only higher natural authority (human thought/Science/TV/Philosophy/Dr Phil? etc)which include a small but significant aspect on the supernatural (no God or anything supernatural exists. Just human imagination)and a set of morality relative to the individual atheist (Murphy's Law/Dont harm anybody/never vote republican/ etc?). You could theoretically call atheism a religion, a religious belief hat there is no God (a belief never proven nor disproven by scientific evidence, a priori belief).
Of course this is a bigger question than this particular blog can answer (what is the thin line between philosophy and religion (Neoplatonism/Christianity?), are all belief systems equal and in one way or another religious, why is atheism and "non-religions" put alongside eery other religion in books talking about religion, etc.
Some of these can be answered, but the whole is one gigantic philosophical question. Perhaps a new forum on this would be useful. I personally cannot promise to be on it or this for long periods of time, but i will try to write when i can. I hope you and others can talk about it on here a lot.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Fosdick, posted 09-03-2008 7:11 PM Fosdick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Fosdick, posted 09-05-2008 2:07 PM LudoRephaim has replied
 Message 50 by bluegenes, posted 09-05-2008 2:27 PM LudoRephaim has replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 47 of 61 (480664)
09-05-2008 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Fosdick
09-03-2008 7:11 PM


Vacuum of space, space,space,space
We or others can also talk about if atheism is or is not a religion, why it has its own sort of faith (faith that atheists are right; that there is no God), and its own apologists (Richard Dawkins, and what was it; Reason Reaction Squad? Reason response Squad? They had a littl daliance with Kirk Cameron and Greg Comfort on Nightline about the question of God. I recommend watching it if you can find it on Youtube or something.)

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 48 of 61 (480669)
09-05-2008 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by LudoRephaim
09-05-2008 1:34 PM


Re: ????????
LR writes:
Atheism, like other "religions" is a world view. It is a system of beliefs (No God, no afterlife (all atheists believe in no form of afterlife???), no higher divine authority, only higher natural authority (human thought/Science/TV/Philosophy/Dr Phil? etc)which include a small but significant aspect on the supernatural (no God or anything supernatural exists.
There is no "afterlife" in any biological context. And since I don't own a soul there is none for me in any spiritual context either. That leaves only a literary context, which may actually work. Mark Twian's death has been greatly exagerated ever since he died.
”HM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by LudoRephaim, posted 09-05-2008 1:34 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by LudoRephaim, posted 09-05-2008 3:17 PM Fosdick has replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 49 of 61 (480674)
09-05-2008 2:23 PM


This topic made me research a bit of our communist past. Now I am sure Bulgarian communists(and all the eastern bloc) raised communism to a status of religion where the nationals of the respective country would bow down at the sight of their leader. The communists were smart enough to ban all other mind controlling bullshit ideologies like Christianity and Islam, because they simply didn't want another false doctrine stealing attention from the utopia of communism. They reserved the right to be the only brain-washing agent and ousted religions out of their way.
In that context, I don't have to imagine no religion, i just have to think back of the old days. And banning religion was not felt so bad at all, as some of you make it out to be.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 50 of 61 (480675)
09-05-2008 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by LudoRephaim
09-05-2008 1:34 PM


Re: ????????
LudoRephaim writes:
Good question. Atheism, like other "religions" is a world view. It is a system of beliefs (No God, no afterlife (all atheists believe in no form of afterlife???), no higher divine authority, only higher natural authority...
Atheism, in its broadest sense, is a lack of belief in gods, or non-theism. That condition is no more a religion than a lack of belief in fairies is a religion.
Within the category, some atheists could certainly be described as having religions. They could be Buddhists or Animists, for example, or followers of any non-theistic religion.
There's no reason why atheists shouldn't believe in elves or ghosts if they want to. This wiki description is reasonable, I suppose (my bolding):
quote:
Atheism, as an explicit position, can be either the affirmation of the nonexistence of gods, or the rejection of theism. It is also defined more broadly as synonymous with any form of nontheism, including the simple absence of belief in deities.
Many self-described atheists are skeptical of all supernatural beings and cite a lack of empirical evidence for the existence of deities. Others argue for atheism on philosophical, social or historical grounds. Although many self-described atheists tend toward secular philosophies such as humanism and naturalism, there is no one ideology or set of behaviors to which all atheists adhere; and some religions, such as Jainism and Buddhism, do not require belief in a personal god.
The term atheism originated as a pejorative epithet applied to any person or belief in conflict with established religion. With the spread of freethought, scientific skepticism, and criticism of religion, the term began to gather a more specific meaning and has been increasingly used as a self-description by atheists.
Atheism - Wikipedia
Atheists like me do not claim to know that there are no gods, just as you cannot claim to know there are no fairies. How could such things be known?
Atheism requires no faith, just lack of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by LudoRephaim, posted 09-05-2008 1:34 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by LudoRephaim, posted 09-05-2008 3:41 PM bluegenes has replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 51 of 61 (480679)
09-05-2008 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Fosdick
09-05-2008 2:07 PM


bio-lafter-life
There is no "afterlife" in any biological context
I dont think anybody would disagree, save for maybe Wiccans (dont quote me on that; they just dont believe in "supernatural" as most religions do, so their version of an afterlife is probably a bit different. We would have to ask one to see). But in terms of biology/biological science no.
And since i dont own a soul...
I know...You sold it to me for that Corvette...whhohohohohohohhahahahahahahahahahaah(cough Cough!)
sorry, just having fun.
Mark twain's death has been greatly exaggerated ever since he died.
What do you mean?

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Fosdick, posted 09-05-2008 2:07 PM Fosdick has replied

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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 52 of 61 (480686)
09-05-2008 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Agobot
09-05-2008 2:23 PM


Commie Gommie
And banning religion was not felt so bad at all, as some of you make it out to be.
Of course; many people in the former soviet bloc/soviet Union didn't mind banning religion; probably due to corruption in the Orthodox church at the time (same thing happened in France, which helped stir anger against the King and Church in their revolutionary period.)
I do sincerely doubt that everyone was okay with it in Bulgaria and surrounding Communist nations though. I certainly would hate to be thrown in a Gulag because i'm a baptist, and i doubt anyone else religious in some form would want to be persecuted by the Government because of their religious nature. Where gulags in Bulgaria during the soviet era?

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Agobot, posted 09-05-2008 2:23 PM Agobot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Agobot, posted 09-05-2008 3:38 PM LudoRephaim has replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 53 of 61 (480689)
09-05-2008 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by LudoRephaim
09-05-2008 3:27 PM


Re: Commie Gommie
Where gulags in Bulgaria during the soviet era?
No, GULAG was in north Russia. Nobody was sent to prison or concentration camps for their religious views. It's just that if you were religious, you didn't get the same opportunities to make a career. You wouldn't be able to be a member of the party and get additional benefits. But people were not secretly preaching religion either, which makes me think that if you are able to fully control people, like the communists did, the "propaganda" against religious dogma pays off and people stop believing in gods, miracles and deities. So i'd say propaganda is stronger than religion(just see the arab world - but they have it vice versa, the propaganda is pro-religion).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by LudoRephaim, posted 09-05-2008 3:27 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by LudoRephaim, posted 09-05-2008 3:48 PM Agobot has replied

  
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 54 of 61 (480690)
09-05-2008 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by bluegenes
09-05-2008 2:27 PM


Fairies
That condition is no more a religion than a lack of belief in fairies is a religion.
Good point, but were fairies ever worshipped as deities before Christianity arrived?
Atheists like me do not clai to know that there are no gods, just as you cannot claim to know there are no fairies.
Actually fairies may have some basis in reality, perhaps the supernatural. I remember a book stating the similarities between UFO abductions and fairie abductions of old. And fairies can be interpreted by differet faiths in different ways (Islam; angels or Jinns. Christianity; Angels or demons. Greek Mythos; Dryads. and so on).
I dont know 100% sure that Fairies did or did not exist. They might not have, or there may have been a legit source to the legend. maybe they were to ancient folk what aliens are to us today. Some say that all legends are based on fact.
BTW: I thought Buddha wasin a sense the "God" of Buddhism? There are Buddhists in Tibet who worship many gods yet still cling to Buddha as well.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

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 Message 50 by bluegenes, posted 09-05-2008 2:27 PM bluegenes has replied

Replies to this message:
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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 55 of 61 (480693)
09-05-2008 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Blue Jay
09-05-2008 1:25 PM


Re: Religion and Civilization
Bluejay writes:
bluegenes writes:
Where are those places?
I'm not sure, but I'd say that East Asia is pretty close.
I'd be inclined to agree (although some might point out that the Japanese are better off without their living Emperor/God of W.W.II).
I spent a couple years in Taiwan as a missionary.
You mean you were actively trying to change that situation?
Taiwanese religion is really just an uneven amalgam of different tidbits from ancient Chinese mythology, Taoism and Buddhism, none of which (at least in their usage) dictates a moral code that must be followed, except for the notion of "doing good."
All the Chinese style of religion does is demand they "sacrifice" fake money and real food to their ancestors in the spirit world. They sacrifice the fake money by burning it, and the food by burning incense around it, after which they eat the food anyway.
Beyond that and the charge to "do good," religion doesn't really do much to or for the Taiwanese. I can't see how dumping this religion would have the same effect as dumping Christianity in Europe.
So, surely they should be sending missionaries to Salt Lake City and Kentucky.

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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 56 of 61 (480696)
09-05-2008 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Agobot
09-05-2008 3:38 PM


Red Lace
Its just that if you were religious, you didn't get the same oppritunities to make a career. You wouldn't be able to be a member of the party and get additional benefits.
Very interesting. It reminds me of something similar in the book 1984 by George Orwell; members of the party were not allowed to be religious (among other things), but the "proles" could have religion if they wanted it (though the book hints that people didn'tcare much to have it anymore. it didn't rule out the possibility of faith though). So the Government was shtty to religious people, but not THAT shtty. Very interesting.
But people were not secretly preaching religion either,
Also very interesting. Although there were maverick relgious people in the former Soviet Union (and some in China who run undergroud churches), i never knew that nations like Bulgaria were that different. I'm glad to actually talk with someone who lived through that era; such a facinating take on history.
Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

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 Message 53 by Agobot, posted 09-05-2008 3:38 PM Agobot has replied

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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 57 of 61 (480700)
09-05-2008 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by LudoRephaim
09-05-2008 3:41 PM


LudoRephaim writes:
I thought Buddha wasin a sense the "God" of Buddhism? There are Buddhists in Tibet who worship many gods yet still cling to Buddha as well.
Buddha was a philosopher of sorts. Buddhists can believe in Gods, or they can be atheists.

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 Message 54 by LudoRephaim, posted 09-05-2008 3:41 PM LudoRephaim has not replied

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 5530 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 58 of 61 (480710)
09-05-2008 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by LudoRephaim
09-05-2008 3:48 PM


Re: Red Lace
Also very interesting. Although there were maverick relgious people in the former Soviet Union (and some in China who run undergroud churches), i never knew that nations like Bulgaria were that different. I'm glad to actually talk with someone who lived through that era; such a facinating take on history.
Yep, our lives changed so dramatically within a week at the end of 1989, it's unbelievable. Bulgaria was considered the 16 state of the Soviet Union and we were ALL speaking Russian as a second language. But yes, propaganda against religions made people feel humiliated about their religious views. It was almost like people were ashamed to concede their belief in god, as other people would often laugh at them. But propaganda is widespread everywhere, in every country, on every continent. It just takes different forms according to the interest being served.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.
Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5500 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 59 of 61 (480714)
09-05-2008 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by LudoRephaim
09-05-2008 3:17 PM


Re: bio-lafter-life
LP writes:
HM writes:
Mark twain's death has been greatly exaggerated ever since he died.*
What do you mean?
Just a loose remark to say that he still lives in the hearts and minds of many people through his literary accomplishments, much more so than I will live as such in the twenty-third century.
”HM
* "The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated." ”Mark Twain
Edited by Hoot Mon, : added clarification

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Baldrick Cunningplan
Junior Member (Idle past 5405 days)
Posts: 5
Joined: 01-07-2009


Message 60 of 61 (493194)
01-07-2009 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Fosdick
08-27-2008 12:30 PM


Never in my entire life have I heard such liberal ignorance. Enjoy your stay in Hell.

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